Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

Got to see some pace of play issues first hand this weekend. The course was running 20 minutes behind by our tee time and we ended up playing in 5:30 for a total of almost 6 hours after out tee time, waiting (sometimes up to 20 minutes) between shots. If I hadn't been there with my FIL from out of town, I would have left at the turn. Course was packed with people on the range when we teed off, but by hole 13 there was absolutely no one behind us. How many of those people won't be back to that course? I know I'll never play there on a weekend again. It's a shame as it's a nice track, but between what I can only assume was over-booking and a lack of marshals it was already out of control before we teed off.
 
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Generally speaking, in my circles at least, the total length of the round doesn't really upset anyone. It's standing around waiting to hit a shot that gets people riled up.

I usually try to do something fun on the tee box like see who can chip their driver closest to the tee marker while we wait, or some other diversion.

To the OP's point: there are times when I wonder why we're all in such a hurry. If it's a nice day and I'm enjoying the company then I don't mind waiting now and then.

Thats actually one the biggest problems. But that is the case regardless of the play time. as long as most anyone ever has to wait it becomes a pace issue and it sucks. The pace itself doesnt even have to be bad but if its not as fast as the guy behind its a problem. this is also why pace issues in some places often are blown out of proportion. Its why in many places that dont really have true slow play issues the discussions and complaints are still just as loud and dominant a thing and its a problem whether or not it actually is one. That does happen too and it unfairly adds alot more to the pace topic than it sometimes deserves.
 
I feel similarly. Haven't seen a marshal on a course for years and he only went out to make sure you had paid your way (pretty rough muni course where you could sneak on).

The only time to complain about slow play here is once you get back in and tell the pro shop. If they are members then the committee might have a word but every committee I've experienced is an old boys club where if you are one of them then you can do no evil.

A few courses out here have multiple marshalls out here patrolling the course. No problem with pace of play. They’re friendly and a simple reminder to keep up is more than enough. Other courses have only 1 or 2 and it’s painful. I think courses can have multiple marshalls on the course to enforce pace and do it in a way that is professional and courteous. The positive reviews from that would far outweigh negative reviews from a 5+ hour round.
 
Got to see some pace of play issues first hand this weekend. The course was running 20 minutes behind by our tee time and we ended up playing in 5:30 for a total of almost 6 hours after out tee time, waiting (sometimes up to 20 minutes) between shots. If I hadn't been there with my FIL from out of town, I would have left at the turn. Course was packed with people on the range when we teed off, but by hole 13 there was absolutely no one behind us. How many of those people won't be back to that course? I know I'll never play there on a weekend again. It's a shame as it's a nice track, but between what I can only assume was over-booking and a lack of marshals it was already out of control before we teed off.

On days like that do you just shrug your shoulders and try and play well and enjoy yourself, or do you let it rile you up?

Grab some more munchies from the pro shop and eat more calories than you burn. Which I have never ever done...
 
Here's another time saver...carry a extra tee & ball in your pocket
 
On another note i would really like to know who this person is that is causing all the slow play everywhere.


So just where/who is this person that is causing all the slow play? :alien:
I really believe the majority of golfers keep pace and actually are all about playing in a reasonable amount of time. Unfortunately all it takes is 1 group to completely bring the course to a halt. I see it all the time at my home course. Things are going smooth for the first few tee times and then there is that one group that could care less about pace of play. After a few holes, the groups behind them get bunched up and it keeps escalating.

I played with a twosome last week that could have caused havoc for the whole course. We were the first group out and we finished the front 9 in 1:45 min - 30 min ahead of pace. Then, the beer and chatter started between the two. The 2nd nine took 2 hr, 30 min. While technically we finished in the 4:15 pace of play, the last 9 was painful. If we started that way on hole 1, the entire course would have been backed up as the tee sheet was stacked all morning.
 
On days like that do you just shrug your shoulders and try and play well and enjoy yourself, or do you let it rile you up?

Grab some more munchies from the pro shop and eat more calories than you burn. Which I have never ever done...

I try to take the high road and enjoy it but it definitely wears on me once I we start to creep past 4 hours and I know we're nowhere near done. Luckily I was in good company so it wasn't a huge deal, just far beyond the amount of time I'm willing to spend out there normally.
 
I really believe the majority of golfers keep pace and actually are all about playing in a reasonable amount of time. Unfortunately all it takes is 1 group to completely bring the course to a halt. I see it all the time at my home course. Things are going smooth for the first few tee times and then there is that one group that could care less about pace of play. After a few holes, the groups behind them get bunched up and it keeps escalating.

I played with a twosome last week that could have caused havoc for the whole course. We were the first group out and we finished the front 9 in 1:45 min - 30 min ahead of pace. Then, the beer and chatter started between the two. The 2nd nine took 2 hr, 30 min. While technically we finished in the 4:15 pace of play, the last 9 was painful. If we started that way on hole 1, the entire course would have been backed up as the tee sheet was stacked all morning.

Some people can cause gridlock in the middle of a desert.
 
I really believe the majority of golfers keep pace and actually are all about playing in a reasonable amount of time. Unfortunately all it takes is 1 group to completely bring the course to a halt. I see it all the time at my home course. Things are going smooth for the first few tee times and then there is that one group that could care less about pace of play. After a few holes, the groups behind them get bunched up and it keeps escalating.

I played with a twosome last week that could have caused havoc for the whole course. We were the first group out and we finished the front 9 in 1:45 min - 30 min ahead of pace. Then, the beer and chatter started between the two. The 2nd nine took 2 hr, 30 min. While technically we finished in the 4:15 pace of play, the last 9 was painful. If we started that way on hole 1, the entire course would have been backed up as the tee sheet was stacked all morning.

I play the resort course by our cabin only before 7:40 am because of this. We finished in just under 3 hours as a twosome on Saturday but if you tee off after 8ish, the round can easily take 5 hours. I’d rather give up golf altogether or my reduce my number of rounds per year by 75% like I did for a decade than play 4.5+ hour rounds.
 
I think pace of play hurts the game at certain courses, but not the game overall. There is a decent public course near me that is notorious for 5 hour rounds on the weekends, so most people I know that have gone have no desire to go back.

When it comes to time, I also think it's just tough for a lot of people to commit 4+ hours to play golf. Even a 3-3:30 hr round ends up being 4+ hours when you factor in driving to/from the course, warming up, etc.
 
I think pace of play hurts the game at certain courses, but not the game overall. There is a decent public course near me that is notorious for 5 hour rounds on the weekends, so most people I know that have gone have no desire to go back.

When it comes to time, I also think it's just tough for a lot of people to commit 4+ hours to play golf. Even a 3-3:30 hr round ends up being 4+ hours when you factor in driving to/from the course, warming up, etc.

And many of the guys I know who made time for these 6+ hour golf days a day or two every weekend are on their 2nd or 3rd wife!
 
I have never heard of anyone not play because of this.

Yes an annoyance, but a hindrance to the growth of the game? I don't see it.

Posted by my thumbs.

I'm sure this has been rebutted already, but there have been more than a few times that we have walked off courses at the turn because of pace.

I love the game, but hard to justify being gone all day to your wife and her still be okay with you going out to play if its like this everytime. This is why we've started playing away from town on less attractive courses, but where times are available at sunrise and pace is never an issue. My wife seems to be more okay with me golfing all weekend if I'm home before lunch both days.
 
I think pace of play hurts the game at certain courses, but not the game overall. There is a decent public course near me that is notorious for 5 hour rounds on the weekends, so most people I know that have gone have no desire to go back.

When it comes to time, I also think it's just tough for a lot of people to commit 4+ hours to play golf. Even a 3-3:30 hr round ends up being 4+ hours when you factor in driving to/from the course, warming up, etc.

Warming up??? Turn up, go to the pro shop and buy some drinks/chocolate bars. Walk onto the first tee and bombs away ;)
 
I blame the course owners/operators. They are cramming as many people on the courses as possible to make as much profit as possible.
I understand that they need to be profitable, but they also need to understand that just because you are now spacing your tee times at 6 to 7 minutes apart, you are causing the jams.
I played yesterday at the Coeur d'Alene municipal course(not the resort) and there was a sign on all of the rental carts that said the expected round time was 4 hours or less.
That course has tree lined fairways on every fairway and they expect the regular golfers to play in 4 hours while most of them are looking for balls in the trees?
That's a complete joke.
Course operators need to go back to tee time spaces at the 9 to 11 minutes apart to be realistic.

Golf is supposed to be a relaxing sport, IT's NOT A DAMN RACE !!
 

Profit is a pipe dream for courses. Every course owner I speak to says breaking even is the goal and anything above and beyond that is gravy. I am part of a group exploring the purchase of a particular private club. The more we look into it, the less the financials make sense

Sorry, I should add. When weather is ideal, they need to put 300+ golfers on the course and sqeeze as many bodies on it to stay in business to make up for the other 250 days where it's a struggle. Costs are fixed.
 
Warming up??? Turn up, go to the pro shop and buy some drinks/chocolate bars. Walk onto the first tee and bombs away ;)

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Profit is a pipe dream for courses. Every course owner I speak to says breaking even is the goal and anything above and beyond that is gravy. I am part of a group exploring the purchase of a particular private club. The more we look into it, the less the financials make sense

Sorry, I should add. When weather is ideal, they need to put 300+ golfers on the course and sqeeze as many bodies on it to stay in business to make up for the other 250 days where it's a struggle. Costs are fixed.

That's insane and maybe operating budget needs to be looked at closer by the current operators, especially on the not so nice days. We averaged right around 220 rounds per day for each course (two courses on two separate sites, so two separate budgets) and still managed to put 6 figures into savings every year. Million dollar practice facility was payed off in under 5 years.
 
We generally tee off at 6am as first off and won't play if the only time available is after 6:30. At 6 we can finished by 9:20. At 6:30, it can be 10:45am. With school age kids that have sport/etc, that time difference can literally be the difference between being able to play or not.
 
I really believe the majority of golfers keep pace and actually are all about playing in a reasonable amount of time. Unfortunately all it takes is 1 group to completely bring the course to a halt. I see it all the time at my home course. Things are going smooth for the first few tee times and then there is that one group that could care less about pace of play. After a few holes, the groups behind them get bunched up and it keeps escalating.

I played with a twosome last week that could have caused havoc for the whole course. We were the first group out and we finished the front 9 in 1:45 min - 30 min ahead of pace. Then, the beer and chatter started between the two. The 2nd nine took 2 hr, 30 min. While technically we finished in the 4:15 pace of play, the last 9 was painful. If we started that way on hole 1, the entire course would have been backed up as the tee sheet was stacked all morning.

This post makes me think of this study

[video=youtube;Suugn-p5C1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M[/video]
 
This post makes me think of this study

[video=youtube;Suugn-p5C1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M[/video]
That vid is what brings me back to how important it is to have elbow room built into tee time intervals. Like driving a car, no one moves at a constant pace but instead it always varies even if minor. And in golf the varying speed is much more dominant because by the very nature of the game people are not only slower or quicker at doing things but also of course no one is consistently down the middle and perfect with thier play. This alone in itself doesnt have to lead to slow play as we can all still move respectably well regardless. But what it does do, is that it creates a must for the elbow room between groups via properly spaced apart tee time intervals.

A group can tee of while the group ahead is on the green. (I think thats the proper interval imo).
Without causing slow play (and while maintaining a respectable pace) and being in a pace setting that is not slow from that point forward the trailing group will still find they will catch up and also fall back again sort of playing a cat and mouse scenario. The individual players and groups as a whole is never a constant speed but a varying one. And while groups can get closer and further apart (cat and mouse) throughout the round it wouldnt at all be a slow play issue assuming every group is one in which can play a respectable pace. But now when tee intervals are too close and lose that elbow room to allow for the cat/mouse scenario, it can and often does creates a slow play problem even if the groups are all ones in which are capable for respectable pace.

Much like in that traffic circle. If the cars were all set cruise control and they were all calibrated and synced specific to be perfectly exact same constant speed the traffic jam would never come to be. But someone varied just enough and since there was no elbow room to allow for it they got a jam. Now turn this ideology over to golf whereas by the very nature of the game itself not at all being a set synced speed (but instead a very varied one) by everyone playing it, and this is why having space between groups is the first key to maintaining respectable pace.

then we can throw in all the other reasons of who does what and how and all the why's as for slow rounds. But even if we got rid of all that, if the tee intervals dont allow the required elbow room in the first place there will still be jams and slow play issues regardless. You cannot play this game exactly one stroke behind the group ahead with zero tolerance gap. Nothing about everyone game is ever synced to an exact controlled speed so how can you place everyone directly behind the other without then allowing any room for the varying play and yet expect it all to run smoothly? Its just a fail from the first tee. Or at least a recipe with a high probability of failure.
 
@Pmm21, glad you posted, I’ve enjoyed the responses.

Whenever pace of play topics come up, I can’t help but imagining a sign that reads, “A round of golf should not take more than X minutes.” However, I think JB’s comments of flow as being the correct approach, stop watches and open holes are not the whole picture. I agree with Et Tu Brute, if you can play a round in 3 hours but it takes 6; that is where frustration arises. It only takes a single group to halt good flow. (Car wrecks)

Carts, walking, and course design play a part, but I’m not convinced those topics address flow. It changes the overall time, but I don’t have problems with the time. I’ve seen fast and slow golfers using carts or walking, and believe it has more to do with the person or group.

When I worked at a lowly staffed muni, I was young and could have done a better job. We hardly used tee times because of demand. It wasn’t a bad course, just remote. On a weekend our flow could become horrible, and admittedly most of my information came after the fact at the clubhouse. Sure, occasionally I would be concerned about a group and get the binoculars dusted off after they got sorted and paid fees, but more could have been improved upon before anything began. (The bad came with the good here, it could be bad but also many sub hour nines at my/our leisure)

I don’t care if there are 5 minutes between tee times on the starter sheet (you don’t have to fill it to be full). More consideration of the groups and addressing the topic beforehand would help. I wouldn’t want to harp on the people I know who are considerate of others out there, but awareness is a powerful first step. That way if a marshal has to step in to politely remind you of others, it isn’t unexpected. Full transparency when you can. Expectations should also be acknowledged for those about to tee off as well.

You can’t control others so it won’t ever be perfect, but I'd try harder to understand them without judgement. Yes, I think waiting around to play a shot is a problem. It is also sometimes required. Last week in league, I had a friend who was playing behind us ask me to hurry up. The next hole was clear and we WERE PAINFULLY SLOW. Lost balls, OB, with a shotgun start (I was hesitant to ask our group to let them play through). He wasn’t being rude and I understood. Two holes later, we had caught up and were waiting ourselves. While having two groups waiting on a tee box is a huge red flag, sometimes you just have to wait. The goal is to improve the opportunities.

Golf also is a big time and financial commitment. Family and life changes schedules but it is part of the game. This is just a reality that would take much (and likely a different, but simular game) to address.

I think about this issue a bit. There are two things I believe individuals should focus on:

1.) Don’t rush, but be ready. Be aware. Before someone’s turn or when they are getting ready is not the time to start a discussion. I still see this happening too often.

2.) Develop a routine. I used to take a full practice swing before every shot. I’ll loosen up out of address when I need to, but unless I’m trying something out of normal (curving, punching, side hill) I don’t take a practice swing and honestly see no difference in results. Not saying you have to give up practice swings at all, but the routine and knowing what you are going to do will make you and everyone else more comfortable.

I also like the idea of marshals or three check points when possible, especially if refreshment stations or something could be worked into it. This is a quality feature, and like marshals in general, I’d like that to be budgeted into the greenfees (or membership costs) when appropriate. I’m a muni rat, but I get it.

Edit: I wanted to add that bringing an extra ball and tees is a remedy, not a cure. When playing single, waiting is a "you" problem. In a small or fast group those situations are where playing through can help. I see the bigger problem as the car wrecks and playing another ball or practicing putting won't help those behind you.
 
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Totally get the 3+ groups on one hole thing that sounds awful. .

my buddies and I played a course Saturday that is trying to raise awareness of itself. It is a bit out of the way, we drove 1:40 to get there...which was good as one of the guys just got back from a trip to Israel and Egypt and we got to hear all about the trip.


Anyway, we get there, someone was stuck in traffic so we got off 30 minutes early, swapping spots with them. On one par 5 there was a group on the green, the foursome we were following waiting to hit their approach, our group and one other waiting to tee off.


Oh...the part that needs mentioned? They had it set up as if it were their version of the US Open. Most difficult tee and pin locations (several cut into the side of the hill on heavily sloped greens...a par 3 box set so you were blinded by the brush and therefore hitting to a blind green...etc)

So the day before Fathers day you probably had several groups like the one ahead of us, we had plenty of time to study them: We think Dad, son and sister, her friend. She whiffed on the ball several times but she and the other girl were playing scramble style. And they were waiting on the group ahead of them on every box, keeping pace just fine.


So a difficult setup day before fathers day. Great thinking right there. 4 groups on one hole...even though we have a free pass for a replay, I have no plans to show up there again. They raised my awareness all right...decent track, one very memorable hole, zero interest in playing it ever again.
 
I am fully on board with this mentality.

Has never been about how long the round takes, always about how much I'm waiting that bothers me.

Same here, thought I do draw the line somewhere on total time for the round.

Example: we have a charity scramble for work here every year. They totally oversell the thing and it's full of people who don't play golf. Last year my starting hole was a par 3 - WITH THREE OTHER GROUPS.

It was a 7-hour drunkfest with very little golf actually occurring. This year I'll just donate the $100 and skip the tournament.
 
Same here, thought I do draw the line somewhere on total time for the round.

Example: we have a charity scramble for work here every year. They totally oversell the thing and it's full of people who don't play golf. Last year my starting hole was a par 3 - WITH THREE OTHER GROUPS.

It was a 7-hour drunkfest with very little golf actually occurring. This year I'll just donate the $100 and skip the tournament.


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