Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

So my home course is a near perfect storm for slow play on the weekends. Its located a few minutes off the interstate, Only course on the west half of the county, reasonably priced ($40 18+cart on weekend am, $30 at noon, $25 at 2pm), very playable (6500 yards from the tips), a variety of holes (links style & parkland), and tee times 8 minutes apart. They advertise during the local airtime commercials during PGA events.

The starter almost never asks singles to join 3somes or pairs up 2somes. They let you know where things are at but I have seen it get backed up 45 minutes just to get started. This is their first problem. As long as the tee sheet is full, there needs to be 4somes on the course, at least 3somes. There's no where to go so why send out singles & 2somes that are just going to sit and wait.

The first hole is a short par 4, straight forward, wide fairway a couple of bunkers but its easier than its #5 HC rating. The teeboxed for the 2nd hole are short ride down the cart part, across a bridge over a creek, then back over another bridge (same creek) and are not visible from the #1 green. You cross that first bridge and see the backup on the #2 teebox. The hole crosses the creek three times from the tips, twice from the other boxes. The approach to the green is guarded by trees on the right and while there's plenty of room the creek runs the length of the right side of the cart path down the final stretch of the hole. If they were ponds the balls would be lost and people would drop and move on. For some reason in a shallow creek people try to get to their ball or fish one out or simply spend too much time looking. The hole is the #1 HC but is really more like the 5th hardest hole on the course. There have been times due to the backup at the start and the 2nd hole, it has been well over an hour from a scheduled tee time until you are on the #3 tee box. I would say its rarely less than a half hour.

People hate it, the course hates it, yet there we are each weekend sipping on cold ones while we wait. One of my buddies has told singles that ask to play thru to chill out and find 3 friends next time. I usually followup with "there's no where to go" and offer a beer... One time a wise, older gentleman (I mean wise sarcastically) drove up to us as a player in our group is hitting our last approach shot to #2, if we would let the 2some behind his group play thru. Again we pointed out that we had waited on the tee box and to play our 2nd shots just like everyone else that afternoon and there really was no open spots for them to go. He didn't like that answer (guessing he didn't want two slickly dressed young guys bearing down on his group all day) and drove off cussing.

Generally after the 3rd hole things move along better and everyone settles down a bit. Pace of play is never fast but its about what you expect. The tee shot on #9 is blind so that slows things down a bit. The have a nice grill & bar at the turn and generally if you want to move up a slot you can ask and do so while some group reloads a cooler or downs some burgers & dogs. The back 9 moves along pretty well until #15. The hole is very narrow with a creek down one side & guarding the green, woods down both sides of a very narrow fairway(9 yards at one point) so many opportunities to lose balls. The green is guarded by giant sycamores so its almost always a 3 shot par 5. There's a single footbridge to cross to and from the green so you have to wait a little longer as the group ahead walks off to their carts and drives back at you before you can hit your approach. It's a beautiful hole but definitely backs up at times.

All these factors add up to 4.5 hours rounds being the norm. Occasionally pushing 5 hours. Makes it rough. Luckily its only 8 minutes from home and I pick up one buddy on the way. The other courses are more expensive/more difficult or boring/easy/still the same price and both farther from home. They can both be played under 4 hours on weekend afternoons but we choose to play closer to home spend a little more time out there, less money and enjoy the fresh air.
 
On another note i would really like to know who this person is that is causing all the slow play everywhere. I mean its obviously not me right? It also none of you right? (cause most of you are speed demons). Ive yet to play with anyone that doesnt complain of the pace of others nor point out the problems. We also all have the solutions to pace issues and can fix it in a second. No one ive ever met through all the years has ever not been in conversations as to what and why and how everyone else is doing to ruin pace. We are all efficient and we all play ready golf and absolutely none (zero) of what any of us ever do ever takes longer than it should. The slow play discussions go on prior to rounds of which they dont have time but somehow show up an hr or more before tee time to practice, during rounds, and then even also often enough after the round that they couldn't wait be done with because of time they dont have yet have the discussion while having the time to have beers in the clubhouse. But regardless of that, no one, not one single person was ever slow. i mean they couldnt be because they are discussing how slow things are all the time. If they were slow they wouldnt discuss it because it wouldnt seem slow to them.
So just where/who is this person that is causing all the slow play? :alien:

Mostly it's not going to directly to ones ball and playing a shot. Whether it be cart riders or walkers, sitting or standing around watching others play shots , is a primary cause of slow play.
 
This is crazy. All the people like me who cannot carry the bag because of a broken back and all courses would need caddies like in Europe. You would eliminate 90% of the recreational golfers who cannot walk for various reasons. It would not help slow play as people who walk still spend time looking for balls, hit several shots, etc. Just because you walk does not mean you are a fast golfer.

Oh but you have to walk "briskly"...
 
If everybody executed their prior practice swing we would be down the middle!...lol
 
I've always felt pace of play was definitely an issue, but not the biggest. I think tee time management could help things around here I've known people that just feel they can take their sweet azz time because they paid as much as they did to play. If there's one group doing that, it can not be too bad as long as they're letting people play through. When you get several groups back to back that just don't seem to gaf, it sucks so bad. I don't have an answer as I think it would take multiple things personally (education, better tee time management, course staff that cares and helps set and enforce expectations, ....),but I absolutely agree it is an issue.

That said, I still think cost deters far more people that the time it takes to play a round.
 
Most of them are volunteers around here. They are retired and get free golf. But yes, I get it but honestly it’s the only way.

I know 1 course that does this. But most in my area can’t afford to even do this. They can’t risk losing a paying member.
 
1000000% is a problem for me.

A few obersvations:

1.) there’s a general sense of privilege where I play and not in the traditional wealth sense, more along the lines of “I paid my green fees, I’m going to have a fun time”

People don’t use common sense, they’re also lazy. I live in MA, it gets hot but it’s not FL or AZ. The amount of 30 year old I see taking carts baffles me.

This relates to the lack of common sense. Two carts parked next to each watching one guy hit a ball... again, refer to no. 1

Par 5, guy has 280 uphill into the wind... is waiting for green to clear, only to top it 60 yards. Refer to common sense.

More than 50% of my rounds im stuck behind that... for 5 hours.

I’ll never leave the game but there are days where I’m just not having fun. Mainly because I’m hyper aware that a few towns over there are guys playing 3:20 rounds but the difference between me and them is a 50k initiation fee
 
1000000% is a problem for me.

A few obersvations:

1.) there’s a general sense of privilege where I play and not in the traditional wealth sense, more along the lines of “I paid my green fees, I’m going to have a fun time”

People don’t use common sense, they’re also lazy. I live in MA, it gets hot but it’s not FL or AZ. The amount of 30 year old I see taking carts baffles me.

This relates to the lack of common sense. Two carts parked next to each watching one guy hit a ball... again, refer to no. 1

Par 5, guy has 280 uphill into the wind... is waiting for green to clear, only to top it 60 yards. Refer to common sense.

More than 50% of my rounds im stuck behind that... for 5 hours.

I’ll never leave the game but there are days where I’m just not having fun. Mainly because I’m hyper aware that a few towns over there are guys playing 3:20 rounds but the difference between me and them is a 50k initiation fee
That's one of the draws of a private course. Less golfers on the course means the guys taking their sweet time watching each other hit or the guy topping his second shot 60 yards aren't holding everyone up because there isn't a course full of people separated by 8 minute tee times.

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That's one of the draws of a private course. Less golfers on the course means the guys taking their sweet time watching each other hit or the guy topping his second shot 60 yards aren't holding everyone up because there isn't a course full of people separated by 8 minute tee times.

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Private courses have issues too. At least mine does...

Mondays: closed until 10am for maintenance.
Wednesday:. "geezer" golf. Actual name the old guys call it but allow anyone to play. 4 man blind draw starts at 830 when warm and 12 when cold.
Thursday:. Women's day. Can still play but they don't have to let anyone play play thru and lasts until 12 or 2 but it's their day and not sure they recognize an end time. Afternoons are men's league.
Friday:. Couples league. Busiest of them all and basically eliminates the 3-7 block.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other things too such as boys and girls golf teams and probably more.

I'm not complaining as I still have it better than most but there a many things to consider still when planning a round.

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I've played muni's in my area about 10 times starting in January. I'm thinking play has sped up in general and it is an improvement. On my trip go Myrtle beach in a few weeks I may get a shock of reality. In my group, I think we are faster because of the PIN in. We always play ready golf but now we do so even around the green. We were guessing others doing the same thing
 
Private courses have issues too. At least mine does...

Mondays: closed until 10am for maintenance.
Wednesday:. "geezer" golf. Actual name the old guys call it but allow anyone to play. 4 man blind draw starts at 830 when warm and 12 when cold.
Thursday:. Women's day. Can still play but they don't have to let anyone play play thru and lasts until 12 or 2 but it's their day and not sure they recognize an end time. Afternoons are men's league.
Friday:. Couples league. Busiest of them all and basically eliminates the 3-7 block.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other things too such as boys and girls golf teams and probably more.

I'm not complaining as I still have it better than most but there a many things to consider still when planning a round.

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wow thats a lot of limitations. Kind of places a damper on things imo.
Whats with the womens day? Is there a mens day?
I mean i can certainly see a womens league if there are enough participants. But why a womens day? Ive seen this at another place too and i dont really get it. Is anyone stopping women from playing during any other time that something else isnt going on? Are women being blocked out during normal operations? I just dont see why block a big chunk (2/3 a whole day) just to have a women's day for the sake of it. Do they need a special day to golf? Cant they just play when they want?
 
wow thats a lot of limitations. Kind of places a damper on things imo.
Whats with the womens day? Is there a mens day?
I mean i can certainly see a womens league if there are enough participants. But why a womens day? Ive seen this at another place too and i dont really get it. Is anyone stopping women from playing during any other time that something else isnt going on? Are women being blocked out during normal operations? I just dont see why block a big chunk (2/3 a whole day) just to have a women's day for the sake of it. Do they need a special day to golf? Cant they just play when they want?

My private course has Women's day on Wedensdays and its a real PITA. Not because of the players but because of the way it's run. They set aside all the morning tee times for women and only women which is fantastic if there were more than about 8 women that actually play during that designated time. The course reserves 24 freaking premium tee times for 1-4 groups. It's our club's way of saying "look you matter too." Of course, there are absolutely no restrictions on women playing any other time the course is open.

How does that relate to pace of play? Well, it really doesn't... So I digress.
 
I think about this issue a bit. There are two things I believe individuals should focus on:

1.) Don’t rush, but be ready. Be aware. Before someone’s turn or when they are getting ready is not the time to start a discussion. I still see this happening too often.

2.) Develop a routine. I used to take a full practice swing before every shot. I’ll loosen up out of address when I need to, but unless I’m trying something out of normal (curving, punching, side hill) I don’t take a practice swing and honestly see no difference in results. Not saying you have to give up practice swings at all, but the routine and knowing what you are going to do will make you and everyone else more comfortable.

These are both great points. Over the last five years I've played with a lot of new or returning to the game golfers including women and some retired guys. We play very social rounds of golf. The instincts & knowledge of how to get around a course smoothly and in a timely fashion can be a challenge for many of them. My wife started playing about 5 years ago and she plays most of her rounds with me and has made tremendous advances in learning how to be ready to play. She plays a forward tee box and now always has her club selected and pulled, ball & tee in hand(spare ball in pocket on water holes) and does really well getting the ball in play and often past some of our playing partners'. One of the recently retired guys loves getting out and playing. He was a very active guy his whole life and the wear and tear simply don't allow him to move very quickly. Even getting the ball on a tee can be a struggle. Often I will hit first, watch another buddy hit (he's in his 60's, hits it well but struggles to see where the ball ends up) then I get back to the cart while the 3rd guy hits. He should move up a box and does if we have another senior with us but rarely hits a fairway. After he gets on in play my wife and advance to her tee box and she plays her shot. So the 3rd guy is usually next to play and even being delivered to his ball (usually which I've found for him in the rough) he's not real quick addressing the ball and taking a shot. Hopefully he advances it far enough that he's not hitting next or again before we get to our tee shots.

A whole round of it can be exhausting. My old regular partner's and my games have suffered over the last years simply due to the effort of bringing our other buddy (and sometimes my wife - she's gotten much better, should be breaking a 100 this year) along but we love 'em. They are great companions on & off the course. We truly enjoy playing as 4somes and during the times we choose to play, weekend afternoons, we are able to more than keep up with the pace, but it can be a lot of work. Tracking not only your own ball but 2 or 3 of your playing partners. At times managing the other cart or clubs (we all hit into ponds or OB and need a different club or to walk down the far side of the hole away from the cart path).

So next time you are behind a group on a course full of 4somes remember there's a reason we're out there too... Sometimes accommodating your round of speed golf before a hot date just isn't high on the priority list...
 
I thought the whole point of a charity day was to get sozzled and try to play some golf, and win longest drive or nearest to the pin

Agreed; just not how I’d like to spend my day.
 
These are both great points. Over the last five years I've played with a lot of new or returning to the game golfers including women and some retired guys. We play very social rounds of golf. The instincts & knowledge of how to get around a course smoothly and in a timely fashion can be a challenge for many of them. My wife started playing about 5 years ago and she plays most of her rounds with me and has made tremendous advances in learning how to be ready to play. She plays a forward tee box and now always has her club selected and pulled, ball & tee in hand(spare ball in pocket on water holes) and does really well getting the ball in play and often past some of our playing partners'. One of the recently retired guys loves getting out and playing. He was a very active guy his whole life and the wear and tear simply don't allow him to move very quickly. Even getting the ball on a tee can be a struggle. Often I will hit first, watch another buddy hit (he's in his 60's, hits it well but struggles to see where the ball ends up) then I get back to the cart while the 3rd guy hits. He should move up a box and does if we have another senior with us but rarely hits a fairway. After he gets on in play my wife and advance to her tee box and she plays her shot. So the 3rd guy is usually next to play and even being delivered to his ball (usually which I've found for him in the rough) he's not real quick addressing the ball and taking a shot. Hopefully he advances it far enough that he's not hitting next or again before we get to our tee shots.

A whole round of it can be exhausting. My old regular partner's and my games have suffered over the last years simply due to the effort of bringing our other buddy (and sometimes my wife - she's gotten much better, should be breaking a 100 this year) along but we love 'em. They are great companions on & off the course. We truly enjoy playing as 4somes and during the times we choose to play, weekend afternoons, we are able to more than keep up with the pace, but it can be a lot of work. Tracking not only your own ball but 2 or 3 of your playing partners. At times managing the other cart or clubs (we all hit into ponds or OB and need a different club or to walk down the far side of the hole away from the cart path).

So next time you are behind a group on a course full of 4somes remember there's a reason we're out there too... Sometimes accommodating your round of speed golf before a hot date just isn't high on the priority list...
I'd imagine that you're letting other groups through though right? If your buddy is really struggling and you can't keep pace that is.

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[...] waiting (sometimes up to 20 minutes) between shots.

That's brutal -- I don't know how you did it. My game completely falls apart when I have to wait 5+ minutes between shots.

What bothers me most about slow play is that many think it's coming from low-skill/high-HC players. It's not a skill issue. I played a round last week at a local muni course, paired up with two others, and both my game and one other guys' was awful -- multiple lost balls, the occasional second tee shot, etc. Total time: 3:22. And never felt like we were moving overly fast. It's reading putts forever, a dozen practice swings on each shot, not playing ready golf, and other course management issues that hold up play ... all stuff that should be very easy for anyone to learn.
 
That's brutal -- I don't know how you did it. My game completely falls apart when I have to wait 5+ minutes between shots.

What bothers me most about slow play is that many think it's coming from low-skill/high-HC players. It's not a skill issue. I played a round last week at a local muni course, paired up with two others, and both my game and one other guys' was awful -- multiple lost balls, the occasional second tee shot, etc. Total time: 3:22. And never felt like we were moving overly fast. It's reading putts forever, a dozen practice swings on each shot, not playing ready golf, and other course management issues that hold up play ... all stuff that should be very easy for anyone to learn.
Poor play doesnt have to be an issue but sometimes it can be. The pooreer the play the harder the person needs to work in order to not become an issue. And if a group has a couple or the entire group playing very badly it can add up to a problem. But that's only when the players do not take care of their play with a sense of urgency and awareness of pace. So it dosnt come down to the play but it comes down to the person. Whenever I play badly (Im talking 100) I simply adjust everything I do in order to make it work pace wise. I walk much quicker and get ready quicker and take care of all my golf business with greater effort so that to make certain it wont cause an issue. And on those times when things are really bad I will even pick up just to respect the pace. Let lost balls go with only minimal effort to locate, etc,etc..
Its when people (and they are out there) play badly but then don't adjust nor make the extra required effort due to their play being outright bad is when bad play becomes a pace problem. Again its not the play itself but is the person.

So of course there are a percentage of bad players who are a problem. But very many bad players do make the efforts to move faster , let lost balls go, and even pick up when they need to and do whats necessary not to become a problem. I think most do from my experiences. I see far more a pace issue from better players than I do from bad players. Many better players tend to spend an eternity searching for the couple/few balls they may errantly hit, take their sweat long time preparing for their shots, often not playing with a ready golf mindset , and don't even get me started with all antics as for how they go about chipping on the greens and putting. Many have this idea in their mind that because they play well they cannot be a pace problem at all and they have all the time they want and no clue that they actually are an issue. Yet they then quickly look to blame the poorer players and tee choices and everyone but themselves.

Bottom line is slow play issues can and do come from all levels of ability. Its the player not the play. I been in countless groups with mixed bag of ability levels and countless times found the best player/s in the group was the slowest one/s of all. But to be fair Ive also seen the bad player fail to see that they need to adjust what they are doing in order to make up for time. So it works both ways.
 
Handicap has absolutely zero to do with slow play. Slow players are slow. It's a mindset.


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Handicap has absolutely zero to do with slow play. Slow players are slow. It's a mindset.


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While I agree with this for the most part, looking for a ball in the woods takes longer than hitting a ball from the fairway. Even poor golfers can play fast though if they are ready to play when it’s their turn.
My frustration is watching Tour golfers take forever and new golfers replicating that behavior on the golf course.
I listen to a podcast called Shotgun Start. They followed Kisner and Dechambeau one round in the US Open and timed every shot. Kisner took an average of 12 seconds to play a shot and Dechanbeau took 40. Kisner scored better that day. Koepka plays fast and I consider him to be the best player on tour right now.
Regardless of skill level, anyone can be ready to play when it’s their turn and this should be instilled in new golfers. The recent NCAA matches took forever and that shouldn’t be allowed to happen.


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Handicap has absolutely zero to do with slow play. Slow players are slow. It's a mindset.


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I agree to an extent.

Certain course setups that have a lot of forced carries, OB areas, water, thick rough and other things that can easily trap a higher handicapper will slow down those groups more than a group full of lower handicappers. That's just how it is.

That being if all other things are equal, speed at walking, decision making etc etc
 
I agree to an extent.

Certain course setups that have a lot of forced carries, OB areas, water, thick rough and other things that can easily trap a higher handicapper will slow down those groups more than a group full of lower handicappers. That's just how it is.

That being if all other things are equal, speed at walking, decision making etc etc

There's always variables. Again though, I still believe it goes back to mindset more than anything based on 5 years of collecting pace of play data for two courses.
 
Handicap has absolutely zero to do with slow play. Slow players are slow. It's a mindset.


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and its also a mindset of the course management itself. I go back to my post about tee time intervals needing elbow room in order for pace to ever work in the first place.

My old place of residence area was constant 5 plus hr rounds and often 5.5 and even longer vs where I live now for years is 4 to 4.5 (usually about 4:20) on weekends an often can be 4 or rarer but can even be less. The only difference between the two areas is that my county uses 10 minute tee intervals vs my old place/s used 7 minutes. Same types of players and people, nothing different about anyone or anything. The only difference was tee time intervals. A golf course has no business preaching pace when they themselves are causing the issue from the first tee and want to get as many greens fees as they can and it comes at the expense of good pace. Its a farce and its hypocritical.

Unfortunately my county this year decided to bring the intervals down to 9 minutes from the 10. I did not know this at first. I usually head out as a single with no reservation and so I just plug when when a spot opens. Without having any clue about the new tee times I did notice that the pace had become a bit slower than normal. It just seemed liked the rounds were living more on the longer side of the normal spectrum. I was simply thinking I was just got a bit unlucky that several rounds I played in were the ones which took a bit longer. And then I come to find out they changed the times down to 9 from 10. And that's when I realized I wasn't just unlucky ending up in a few slower sided paced rounds but instead that one less minute of less elbow room between tee times has now increased the rounds times a bit. That one minute is all it took. Ok so its not 7 but it made a noticeable difference being 9 vs 10. We use toi get to part 3's with a group on the green and wait an now its become norm to have a grouo still teeing off as we make our way to the 3. I mean just that one minute has affected things. As said I had no idea and simply thought I was unlucky to coincidentally play in rounds that were slower than average. But now I see because of the one minute difference it has actually had a negative affect and moved the average up a to be a bit longer.

They got too greedy. Not only increased fees but now squeezing in more groups. One minute sounds like nothing but tee times (concerning the required elbow room neede in order to work well) reach a curve of diminished returns at some point. From 12 to 11 may not mean anything pace wise and from 11 to 10 may have some but minimal affect. But 10 to 9 has become very noticeable and imo crosses that line where now its felt and no longer works so well. And of course less than 9 would be even worse eventually reaching the disaster my old courses had pace wise with their 7 minute tee times.
 
Agreed, a group of decent players will usually outpace a group of poor players, and the notion that a poor player making 8's is going to keep up with a bogey golfer easily if they just play ready golf is plain wrong, they can't.

This disparity in player skill is probably the biggest cause of slow play on any given course, although just plain old congestion and the courses unwillingness to gap tee times to allow for it is really the biggest issue IMO.
 
I agree to an extent.

Certain course setups that have a lot of forced carries, OB areas, water, thick rough and other things that can easily trap a higher handicapper will slow down those groups more than a group full of lower handicappers. That's just how it is.

That being if all other things are equal, speed at walking, decision making etc etc

yea I can agree but the problem is that very many better cappers are very capable of causing gridlock in a desert. can be human rain delays. Many can spend much more time playing there better played game than the higher cappers do playing their lousy one. That is not at all uncommon. In fact is far from uncommon. It does work both ways. And because of the better play that better player who is the human rain delay dos not for one second even consider that he is a problem.
 
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