Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

[Bucketsofjoy]

Admitted skimmer here, but I like the original questions.

I don't think it is really hurting the game, or at least not nearly to the extent it is discussed. Golf has a habit of constant "growth" discussions (Hey, this is fun, why isn't EVERYONE doing it?!) but I think think often we create, or at least exaggerate problems for the sake of continuing the discussion. Its not fun to get stuck behind someone going slower than you are - especially when its easy to see how they're wasting time. Its kind of like interstate driving, anyone going slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a moron. People definitely need to be more aware and considerate on the golf course regarding their pace and the pace of other players, there's no doubt about that - but there's also a large group of people who need to lighten up. Sometimes slowing down isn't a bad thing.

I think a lot of us are mad about pace of play because we're told to by the "keepers of the take." We see discussions about JB Holmes slow playing someone on the 18th or Jason Day going through a 5 minute meditation cycle every time he hits a tee shot and all of the sudden I realize this idiot in front of me is the sole reason I didn't have an absolute blast of a round and shoot a PB. We need an easy answer to "why aren't more people playing golf" and slow play seems to be a good way to blame every other golfer on the planet apart from yourself (have you ever met someone who says they're a slow player?).

I think the discussion does need to change course to be "what can golf offer someone who doesn't have time to play an 18 hole round?"

 

[Bernoulli]

I think the discussion does need to change course to be "what can golf offer someone who doesn't have time to play an 18 hole round?"[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting change to the discussion. An obvious answer would be to play 9 holes.

 

[JB]

Admitted skimmer here, but I like the original questions.

I don't think it is really hurting the game, or at least not nearly to the extent it is discussed. Golf has a habit of constant "growth" discussions (Hey, this is fun, why isn't EVERYONE doing it?!) but I think think often we create, or at least exaggerate problems for the sake of continuing the discussion. Its not fun to get stuck behind someone going slower than you are - especially when its easy to see how they're wasting time. Its kind of like interstate driving, anyone going slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a moron. People definitely need to be more aware and considerate on the golf course regarding their pace and the pace of other players, there's no doubt about that - but there's also a large group of people who need to lighten up. Sometimes slowing down isn't a bad thing.

I think a lot of us are mad about pace of play because we're told to by the "keepers of the take." We see discussions about JB Holmes slow playing someone on the 18th or Jason Day going through a 5 minute meditation cycle every time he hits a tee shot and all of the sudden I realize this idiot in front of me is the sole reason I didn't have an absolute blast of a round and shoot a PB. We need an easy answer to "why aren't more people playing golf" and slow play seems to be a good way to blame every other golfer on the planet apart from yourself (have you ever met someone who says they're a slow player?).

I think the discussion does need to change course to be "what can golf offer someone who doesn't have time to play an 18 hole round?"

Golf hasn't had constant growth discussions though. Up until this year, golf has been on a decline for years. Multiple places track number of rounds played. Courses opening and closing. Etc ETc. When those same places ask why these people are exiting, cost and pace are the two biggest factors.

It's like asking someone what they had for dinner. They tell you I just ate a hamburger. Then someone else from across the room, screaming, no you didn't, you ate a salad. Then someone else saying "in my area, we don't have have hamburgers, only fast cars, taxes and elephant meat".

 

[rollin]

Golf hasn't had constant growth discussions though. Up until this year, golf has been on a decline for years. Multiple places track number of rounds played. Courses opening and closing. Etc ETc. When those same places ask why these people are exiting, cost and pace are the two biggest factors.

It's like asking someone what they had for dinner. They tell you I just ate a hamburger. Then someone else from across the room, screaming, no you didn't, you ate a salad. Then someone else saying "in my area, we don't have have hamburgers, only fast cars, taxes and elephant meat".

But in talking decline , isn't some of this then simply related to the "why is golf dying and whats wrong with it" campaign? A lot of that had to do with the greatest influx the modern game has ever seen. Over expansion (could even say much of it irresponsible) then left a huge void once the fad or influx came back down to normalcy. Surely that wasn't going to last. Golf didn't decline after the influx due to pace. The infatuation and interest simply wore out and golf sort of simply went back to what it use to be prior as for participation. And Im going to guess its still more populated than it was pre the influx. So if we minus the influx it would look like it has actually grown (if I am correct about that).

 

[JB]

Haha.
Bananas are not real popular to mildly popular
Bananas grow in popularity
Bananas decline in popularity to what it was before growth
We should not ask anybody why they stopped eating bananas, because they were mildly popular before.

 

[rollin]

Haha.
Bananas are not real popular to mildly popular
Bananas grow in popularity
Bananas decline in popularity to what it was before growth
We should not ask anybody why they stopped eating bananas, because they were mildly popular before.

and now we're going bananas. I was already bananas before and still am. BTW I like bananas.

But honestly asking why an iunflux tamed back to normalcy is like wondering why clothing fashions come and go. It was like a fad and everyone wanted to part of it is all. of course it was going to tame back down imo it had to. And BTW pace was also an issue before the influx and during it and yet people still played and grew it.

 

[JB]

and now we're going bananas. I was already bananas before and still am. BTW I like bananas.

But honestly asking why an iunflux tamed back to normalcy is like wondering why clothing fashions come and go. It was like a fad and everyone wanted to part of it is all. of course it was going to tame back down imo it had to. And BTW pace was also an issue before the influx and during it and yet people still played and grew it.

I like bananas too...And pace was an issue, so if people are saying they are leaving because of it, it seems pretty obvious that maybe we should
A:Examine the problem and work on a way to fix it.
B:Acknowledge that the problem might actually exist.

The powers that be even went as far as spending millions on a marketing campaign called "While We are Young" because the problem exists and they know it needs to be rectified.

 

[kevin81002]

I like bananas too...And pace was an issue, so if people are saying they are leaving because of it, it seems pretty obvious that maybe we should
A:Examine the problem and work on a way to fix it.
B:Acknowledge that the problem might actually exist.

The powers that be even went as far as spending millions on a marketing campaign called "While We are Young" because the problem exists and they know it needs to be rectified.

You yourself said they're also leaving because of the cost. I think that's a bigger issue for the majority of people playing the game, and the majority who quit. Someone who's a scratch golfer or an avid golfer (which is a small percentage of the population of the game) are less likely to quit because it takes too long than those that are less fortunate or lower/middle class (the rest of us) that quit because it costs too much. Atleast that's my opinion. That small percentage group will quit that round, but not the game entirely. Also, equipment costs have dramatically increased in that same 10 year span.

Now if you were to say that slow play is an issue with most avid golfers? I'd agree with that. But that's not the majority.

You want solutions to the slow play issue? Televise it. Get the USGA, PGA, Golf channel, etc. to run commercials about pace of play, with tips on how to speed up the game. Get the PGA to enforce slow play and get the players on board with it (which isn't likely considering they're private contractors... unless the PGA finally starts to enforce the rules.) Because we all know that people will emulate what they see in TV. They see JB Holmes looking at 3' putts from several angles multiple times, or Spieth take 40 minutes to figure out where to drop, they're gonna take their dear sweet time looking for that lost ball til all options are expired. Why should they play faster when everything they see says it's ok not to? We see it all the time with putting styles, apparel choices and every other facet of the game... because of what they see on TV, or what their favorite pro is doing or wearing. They see it, they emulate it.

How many people did we see on the golf course looking like walking pumpkins after Rickie hit the scene?

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[JB]

You yourself said they're also leaving because of the cost. I think that's a bigger issue for the majority of people playing the game, and the majority who quit. Someone who's a scratch golfer or an avid golfer (which is a small percentage of the population of the game) are less likely to quit because it takes too long than those that are less fortunate or lower/middle class (the rest of us) that quit because it costs too much. Atleast that's my opinion. That small percentage group will quit that round, but not the game entirely. Also, equipment costs have dramatically increased in that same 10 year span.

Now if you were to say that slow play is an issue with most avid golfers? I'd agree with that. But that's not the majority.

You want solutions to the slow play issue? Televise it. Get the USGA, PGA, Golf channel, etc. to run commercials about pace of play, with tips on how to speed up the game. Get the PGA to enforce slow play and get the players on board with it (which isn't likely considering they're private contractors... unless the PGA finally starts to enforce the rules.) Because we all know that people will emulate what they see in TV. They see JB Holmes looking at 3' putts from several angles multiple times, or Spieth take 40 minutes to figure out where to drop, they're gonna take their dear sweet time looking for that lost ball til all options are expired. Why should they play faster when everything they see says it's ok not to? We see it all the time with putting styles, apparel choices and every other facet of the game... because of what they see on TV, or what their favorite pro is doing or wearing. They see it, they emulate it.

How many people did we see on the golf course looking like walking pumpkins after Rickie hit the scene?

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I think cost is a major factor as well. Up until 3 years ago, people (everybody with jobs) lost a tax credit.
But I think if we are going to take their word that its financial, its hard to ignore and not take the same word, that its less fun for people when sitting around waiting.

 

[kevin81002]

I think cost is a major factor as well. Up until 3 years ago, people (everybody with jobs) lost a tax credit.
But I think if we are going to take their word that its financial, its hard to ignore and not take the same word, that its less fun for people when sitting around waiting.

I can get down with that. It is less fun while sitting. I don't think anyone is denying that slow play isn't an issue, just IMO not the main issue. It would be nice to see some stats on what percentage quit due to slow play versus cost. I think the commercial idea would actually work though.

 

[shanewu]

Support group started! I dig it

haha yes!

I agree. I play with my older brother almost every Saturday. He's soooooooo slooooooow! Him and his regular partner are slower than molasses. But, it's either don't let it bother me and enjoy some time spent with my brother, or don't play. I choose time spent with my brother. It's an extra half an hour spent with people you enjoy being around. Not a big deal, and they're too old and set in their ways to change anyway. Hell they don't even think they're slow.

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I think that choosing to spend time with our loved ones is the right choice for sure. And it's funny how many slow people don't think they're slow. I'm deliberate but I don't think I'm slow overall.

I'm with y'all on this. #3!

Yes! When is the first meeting?!

 

[Space Bandito]

I think cost is a major factor as well. Up until 3 years ago, people (everybody with jobs) lost a tax credit.
But I think if we are going to take their word that its financial, its hard to ignore and not take the same word, that its less fun for people when sitting around waiting.

I think cost has to be the #1 factor by quite a margin. The cost of EVERYTHING has gone up, yet everyone seems to be bringing in the same amount of cash as when things cost less. Less room in the personal budget for an expensive hobby, and you're going to play less. That applies to the casual player more than it ever will to anyone in this thread.

It reminds me of 2008, the first thing to be liquidated in just about every family in my circles was the beach house (2nd home, summer house, whatever you want to call it.) These things are great, but when you need to trim the fat, they're pretty easy to put at the top of the list.

 

[Johan185]

What course?

Looks like admiral baker in San Diego

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Camarillo Springs

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[Molten]

Yes! When is the first meeting?!

I think I’m going to have a test meeting tomorrow - playing a public course that might be CPO. I will have a real test.

 

[Bucketsofjoy]

Golf hasn't had constant growth discussions though. Up until this year, golf has been on a decline for years. Multiple places track number of rounds played. Courses opening and closing. Etc ETc. When those same places ask why these people are exiting, cost and pace are the two biggest factors.

It's like asking someone what they had for dinner. They tell you I just ate a hamburger. Then someone else from across the room, screaming, no you didn't, you ate a salad. Then someone else saying "in my area, we don't have have hamburgers, only fast cars, taxes and elephant meat".

I get it, and certainly after my partial round today I’m more inclined to side with the “slow play is killing golf” crowd.

I just think slow play is the low hanging fruit in the “grow the game” discussions because no one will admit that they are the problem. If I blame it on that, I don’t have to address any of my own shortcomings - it’s literally everyone else’s fault but mine.

It is a concern, for sure, but I don’t think it is really hurting the game to the extent that we are lead to believe.

 

[DG_1234]

I think cost has to be the #1 factor by quite a margin. .

I don't think so. Greens fees at my home area courses are less now than they were 25 years ago.
I think the "#1 factor" harming golf's popularity is that people find the game more frustrating than fun, and for that reason they are reluctant to go to the golf course.

 

[kevin81002]

I don't think so. Greens fees at my home area courses are less now than they were 25 years ago.
I think the "#1 factor" harming golf's popularity is that people find the game more frustrating than fun, and for that reason they are reluctant to go to the golf course.

And the other side of this statement, green fees where I live have tripled over the last 25 years. Courses that used to be affordable have long been plowed down to make room for tract homes. Equipment has gone up about 30% in the last 10 years.

I understand what you're saying that more people would enjoy the game if they would learn to play the correct way. But therein lies another huge cost. What's instruction cost these days... 150+ an hour? And how many lessons would you say it would take for someone to be proficient in your eyes... say 20-30 minimum? So there's another 4500 bucks stacked on top of the 3 or 4 g's it costs to build a bag. The point I think you're missing is that most people on the course could care less about their score. They're there to socialize, entertain clients, or get some time away from day to day life. You, and the rest of us that take the game somewhat seriously are in the minority my friend. And I'm ok with that. I'll deal with some slow ass people no problem if it keeps my favorite golf courses open.


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[chpar4]

Good arguments on both sides of the conversation. We have courses in our are that have a “slow play” rep and get avoided by serious players. Not sure how much that hurts the course but has to have some affect. They don’t get any $ from me. Anything over 4-1/2 starts to bother me. Our average at home course is 3:45 to 4 tops. Anything over that and I start to lose focus.
On the other side, if a course has a strict pace of play policy it gets avoided by the casual golfers losing that revenue stream.
Side note: below is a note from our men’s league Prez from Thursday. Half kidding, half brutal truth. We were try to beat the incoming weather due around 7 ish.

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[analyticandrew]

Haven’t been able to read this ENTIRE thread but I take it into account (pace of play) because of how I want to spend my day. I’ve got a wife and two kids, none of which play golf or want to learn. So when I take away time from them, it better be worth it.

This is why I try and play the very first tee time out. No waiting for anyone, and I’m done by 10am at the LATEST.

I also think the pace of play would be vastly improved by
1: Marshalls - I cant remember the last time I saw on actually out on the course pushing people when there’s an entire hole open ahead of them.
2: Education - things like “enter scores from the previous hole on the next tee box as opposed to at the green of the hole you just finished” or “put your cart near the back part of the green towards the next hole so when you clear the green, the groups behind you can start their routine to hit up” or “help your playing partners locate their ball before going to yours”




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[Acesteve]

I think the discussion does need to change course to be "what can golf offer someone who doesn't have time to play an 18 hole round?"

That's an interesting change to the discussion. An obvious answer would be to play 9 holes.[/QUOTE]

I think this is the question. A round of golf takes 4 hours to 4:15 with foursomes as the standard and 4 is the most common pairing that I see by far. Add the drive to the course, warmup and a drive home. 1 round is a good part of a day. Most millennials don't want to spend a day playing golf. That some groups can't get around the course in 4:15 just is the straw that might break the camels back.

The issue with 9 holes is very few places are setup for it. In fact, most green fees are about the same.

 

[Space Bandito]

That's an interesting change to the discussion. An obvious answer would be to play 9 holes.

I think this is the question. A round of golf takes 4 hours to 4:15 with foursomes as the standard and 4 is the most common pairing that I see by far. Add the drive to the course, warmup and a drive home. 1 round is a good part of a day. Most millennials don't want to spend a day playing golf. That some groups can't get around the course in 4:15 just is the straw that might break the camels back.

The issue with 9 holes is very few places are setup for it. In fact, most green fees are about the same.

This is spot on. Pushing 9 hole rounds only works in some places. Perhaps the world needs more pitch n putts, and par 3 courses. I fell in love with the game on a par 3 where I was asked to play for a friends birthday. Had he asked me to play a full size 18 hole course, I would have declined. Not because of how long it takes, but because I didn't know what I was doing.

 

[Maric]

So how does this education take place? Where do golfers (especially new golfers) learn these things? Should all instructors include a pace of play "tip of the day", should courses hand out ready play tips when you pay your greens fees, should golf stores display how to speed up the game placards? I have been lucky to attend clinics on the course that include these tips, but how do you educate players?

 

[analyticandrew]

So how does this education take place? Where do golfers (especially new golfers) learn these things? Should all instructors include a pace of play "tip of the day", should courses hand out ready play tips when you pay your greens fees, should golf stores display how to speed up the game placards? I have been lucky to attend clinics on the course that include these tips, but how do you educate players?

I think it’s the responsibility of the courses to do this. It makes the most sense. Print a quarter sheet of paper with tips. Hand out and say “we’ve got some tips to help with slow play we’ve been experiencing that helps everyone”.

AND if you play with a group of friends, it’s also OUR responsibility to hold them accountable for slow play.


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[Chisag]

Golf hasn't had constant growth discussions though. Up until this year, golf has been on a decline for years. Multiple places track number of rounds played. Courses opening and closing. Etc ETc. When those same places ask why these people are exiting, cost and pace are the two biggest factors.

... I remember a time not too long ago that booking weekend twilite was difficult at best and you had to book early or the times were you could finish ere long gone. Now, quite a few of my favorite courses to play here in the Chicago suburbs always have twilite openings on weekends and during the week you can just walk up and play with a foursome at twilite.

 

[malemotives]

Since ALVGC is pretty much a semi-private Golf Club, for Veterans and their guests, we take pace of play seriously but with a grain of salt. To start with, we don't have Tee Times. It is basically first come, first serve. However, I say "basically, because we train our starters to get to know the golfers and send them off in the most efficient groups. On crowed mornings I will alternates starts on Tee 1 and Tee 10. No twosomes or Singles before 12 noon. While we try hard to avoid slow play, we don't think it is fair to "RUSH" players beyond their ability. So.. we also train our volunteer Marshalls to know players and watch for potential bottlenecks. Few things irritate a golfer more than being on a good pace and scoring well and then having to WAIT. Our Marshalls look out for this and will pull a group aside to let faster players play through. On average our 5 1/2 mile course takes 3 1/2 hours... some finish faster.