Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

[JB]

This is interesting, Johan. Pace of play may not be hurting the game, but on any given weekend, it may be hurting your game as an individual. But does that have a lasting effect?

Except it is hurting "the game".
We can say the core golfer (THPers) are not going to stop playing, but examples have been given in this thread about the impact that it has.

 

[Space Bandito]

Except it is hurting "the game".
We can say the core golfer (THPers) are not going to stop playing, but examples have been given in this thread about the impact that it has.

And many more have been given that don't feel it is. The whole point of this thread was to argue against, what feels more and more like a marketing tactic.

Next we need to ask ourselves what defines pace of play?

Is it taking 20 practice swings, not playing ready golf, etc? Or is it players who don't play as well as the one complaining about pace?

If you go through the numerous posts on this thread, many of the stories regarding a slow day on the course recount tales of players who aren't very good at the game.

That is a huge detriment to the game as a whole, to make newer (or just bad players) feel that they should stay home rather than come out in order to not upset the elites who dictate pace.

Posted by my thumbs.

 

[JB]

And many more have been given that don't feel it is. The whole point of this thread was to argue against, what feels more and more like a marketing tactic.

Next we need to ask ourselves what defines pace of play?

Is it taking 20 practice swings, not playing ready golf, etc? Or is it players who don't play as well as the one complaining about pace?

If you go through the numerous posts on this thread, many of the stories regarding a slow day on the course recount tales of players who aren't very good at the game.

That is a huge detriment to the game as a whole, to make newer (or just bad players) feel that they should stay home rather than come out in order to not upset the elites who dictate pace.

Posted by my thumbs.

As mentioned, the core golfer has a passion. With golf's shrinking user base, and one of two issues given being pace, it is literally impossible to ignore that it has impacted the game.
The entire basis of this website is called The Hackers Paradise. So I don't think lesser skilled players should ever feel that way here.

 

[DG_1234]

If you go through the numerous posts on this thread, many of the stories regarding a slow day on the course recount tales of players who aren't very good at the game.

That is a huge detriment to the game as a whole, to make newer (or just bad players) feel that they should stay home rather than come out in order to not upset the elites who dictate pace.

Not really. I recall decades ago when Lee Trevino was advocating that beginner players spend a year on the driving ranges and par 3 courses (before stepping on a regulation length golf course).Some may call that an "elitist perspective" while others call it a sensible one.
My take is that slow play is about respecting the game. For hackers with no reasonable control of their golf ball, it is disrespectful to be on a regulation golf course holding up other players. Tour pros taking too much time to play a shot, are being disrespectful to the tournament field.

 

[tahoebum]

Not really. I recall decades ago when Lee Trevino was advocating that beginner players spend a year on the driving ranges and par 3 courses (before stepping on a regulation length golf course).Some may call that an "elitist perspective" while others call it a sensible one.
My take is that slow play is about respecting the game. For hackers with no reasonable control of their golf ball, it is disrespectful to be on a regulation golf course holding up other players. Tour pros taking too much time to play a shot, are being disrespectful to the tournament field.

Well said and I agree 100%. When I taught my children to play golf, they went to the range and played par 3’s until they came proficient enough to go to a par 72 course. When my daughter started tagging along with me 4-5 years ago at age 9, she would shoot about 65-70 for nine holes but could still play 9 holes in about 75 minutes riding with me as a twosome. She is just finding out now that she is playing high school golf that not everyone considers a 3 hour round to be the normal speed, lol.

The reality is many start the game as adults and are never taught about pace of play or other golf etiquette. Many golfers consider a 4.5+ hour round to be a normal pace and likely haven’t played a round in under 4 hours in their life. They simply don’t care if those behind them would prefer a faster pace. Sort of like those that like to drive 5mph under the speed limit in the left lane of the freeway. IMO, compared to 30 years ago, Americans are less polite/concerned about others whether it’s on the golf course, on the roads, or in a restaurant. When I started playing, it was hard to find a green at a public course with more than a handful of unrepaired ball marks. A couple weeks ago when I played a local muni course for the first time since the 1990’s there must have been a few hundred just on one par 3 green. 30 years ago that would have never happened. When golfers are too lazy to fix a ball mark or replace a divot, they sure don’t care about holding up the 30 groups of golfers behind them.

 

[Space Bandito]

Not really. I recall decades ago when Lee Trevino was advocating that beginner players spend a year on the driving ranges and par 3 courses (before stepping on a regulation length golf course).Some may call that an "elitist perspective" while others call it a sensible one.
My take is that slow play is about respecting the game. For hackers with no reasonable control of their golf ball, it is disrespectful to be on a regulation golf course holding up other players. Tour pros taking too much time to play a shot, are being disrespectful to the tournament field.

So is your take that slow players not play regardless of skill level?

Posted by my thumbs.

 

[dduarte85]

It does for me... just space out tee times, but courses want every dime they can get. 5 min tee times create log jams and it absolutely affects my mental state, clearly impacts my score. I know it varies from person to person. 5 hour rounds of golf are very low on my totem poll.

Last week we had 3 groups on a par 5, plain stupid.

 

[TheDoctor]

Guess I will stick to my home course here in the UK where I can enjoy a leisurely stroll with my wife and friends and play a round in under 3hrs 30min and not get stressed about anything wishing I could run around quicker

It does for me... just space out tee times, but courses want every dime they can get. 5 min tee times create log jams and it absolutely affects my mental state, clearly impacts my score. I know it varies from person to person. 5 hour rounds of golf are very low on my totem poll.

Last week we had 3 groups on a par 5, plain stupid.

3 groups on a par 5 is entirely possible

1 group on the green
2nd group walking to their ball after playing approach shots as they know they can't reach in 2 shots so have laid up
3rd group on the tee

Or do you mean 3 groups waiting on the tee?

 

[DG_1234]

So is your take that slow players not play regardless of skill level?

Posted by my thumbs.

My take is that beginners (or anyone without reasonable control of the golf ball) belong on driving ranges or par 3 courses. If someone has an interest in taking up golf, that's great. I's the world's best game and deserves the respect of learning some swing skills and etiquette to do it right.
On Tour I don't believe slow play is a problem.The fields are 150 plus players , the courses are packed, and it is rare that a group ever has a hole open in front of them.But if there are a few players who consistently take too long to play a shot then the Tour can impose on them financial fines, suspend, or even expel them from the Tour. Remember the PGA Tour is owned by its members, including a committee which monitors event Rules, hires the Tour Commissioner etc....

 

[radiman]

Well said and I agree 100%. When I taught my children to play golf, they went to the range and played par 3’s until they came proficient enough to go to a par 72 course. When my daughter started tagging along with me 4-5 years ago at age 9, she would shoot about 65-70 for nine holes but could still play 9 holes in about 75 minutes riding with me as a twosome. She is just finding out now that she is playing high school golf that not everyone considers a 3 hour round to be the normal speed, lol.

The reality is many start the game as adults and are never taught about pace of play or other golf etiquette. Many golfers consider a 4.5+ hour round to be a normal pace and likely haven’t played a round in under 4 hours in their life. They simply don’t care if those behind them would prefer a faster pace. Sort of like those that like to drive 5mph under the speed limit in the left lane of the freeway. IMO, compared to 30 years ago, Americans are less polite/concerned about others whether it’s on the golf course, on the roads, or in a restaurant. When I started playing, it was hard to find a green at a public course with more than a handful of unrepaired ball marks. A couple weeks ago when I played a local muni course for the first time since the 1990’s there must have been a few hundred just on one par 3 green. 30 years ago that would have never happened. When golfers are too lazy to fix a ball mark or replace a divot, they sure don’t care about holding up the 30 groups of golfers behind them.

A few issues with that expectation. Not everyone is a youth when they start the game so they don't have a parent to shepherd them to that point. And, not everyone has access to par 3 courses. I am not saying it's a bad thought process for a child or someone who has access to that kind of setup. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone who wants to play golf to spend years preparing themselves to play an actual golf course.

 

[TheDoctor]

My take is that beginners (or anyone without reasonable control of the golf ball) belong on driving ranges or par 3 courses. If someone has an interest in taking up golf, that's great. I's the world's best game and deserves the respect of learning some swing skills and etiquette to do it right.
On Tour I don't believe slow play is a problem.The fields are 150 plus players , the courses are packed, and it is rare that a group ever has a hole open in front of them.But if there are a few players who consistently take too long to play a shot then the Tour can impose on them financial fines, suspend, or even expel them from the Tour. Remember the PGA Tour is owned by its members, including a committee which monitors event Rules, hires the Tour Commissioner etc....

What do you consider to be reasonable control of the golf ball???? Do they have to be a certain handicap before you would let them on the course? If so, how can someone get a handicap without being 'allowed' on a course?
Ability has nothing to do with pace of play or etiquette. I am willing to bet my wife is a lot more considerate than some people on this forum despite having only first picked up a club a couple years ago, yet she plays a full course and plays in competitions

If slow play isn't an issue on Tour then why are Tour players complaining about it?

 

[Space Bandito]

My take is that beginners (or anyone without reasonable control of the golf ball) belong on driving ranges or par 3 courses. If someone has an interest in taking up golf, that's great. I's the world's best game and deserves the respect of learning some swing skills and etiquette to do it right.
On Tour I don't believe slow play is a problem.The fields are 150 plus players , the courses are packed, and it is rare that a group ever has a hole open in front of them.But if there are a few players who consistently take too long to play a shot then the Tour can impose on them financial fines, suspend, or even expel them from the Tour. Remember the PGA Tour is owned by its members, including a committee which monitors event Rules, hires the Tour Commissioner etc....

That is exactly how the game loses participants. How can the game expect to grow if we tell new players they're not allowed to play a course until they're deemed good enough (by whom?)

I don't know about you but my driving range game is a lot different from my course game. I can imagine many people becoming a range hero only to go out and shot 120 on a course

Posted by my thumbs.

 

[JB]

That is exactly how the game loses participants. How can the game expect to grow if we tell new players they're not allowed to play a course until they're deemed good enough (by whom?)

I don't know about you but my driving range game is a lot different from my course game. I can imagine many people becoming a range hero only to go out and shot 120 on a course

Posted by my thumbs.

Agreed. Its an awful idea to take the amazing scenery we offer and limit who can play it. Bad golfers can be plenty fast. Good golfers can be plenty slow.
Might as well tell the largest segments of golfers in the world (older players) and tell them they can't play anymore as their skills and length deteriorate.

Stone age idea that is lost when someone can learn simple lessons on pace on YouTube or here rather than taking a year of time to go to the range without ever stepping foot on the beautiful architecture that we have created.

By that same note, taking new golfers, putting them on a course and saying "isn't this fun" as they wait to swing 10 minutes between each shot is not ideal either.

 

[rallo]

No one ever learned how to play faster on the driving range, IMO. We have a few beginners in our rotation, and our first goal is getting them to enjoy the game. This means being lax with the rules, ie teeing the ball up in the fairway, improving lies etc. It's not uncommon to have them play a tee shot and then drop at the 150 marker, or by the green if they aren't advancing the ball very well. They are out there to enjoy the game and are very aware of their pace. We have a great time, and don't hold anyone up.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[DG_1234]

What do you consider to be reasonable control of the golf ball???? Do they have to be a certain handicap before you would let them on the course? If so, how can someone get a handicap without being 'allowed' on a course?
Ability has nothing to do with pace of play or etiquette. I am willing to bet my wife is a lot more considerate than some people on this forum despite having only first picked up a club a couple years ago, yet she plays a full course and plays in competitions

If slow play isn't an issue on Tour then why are Tour players complaining about it?

For a regulation length golf course "reasonable control of the golf ball" is the skill level to strike a 130 to 150 yard consistently straight shot, and the ability to routinely hit a green from inside 100 yards.
There are some exceptions, but for the most part skill level and etiquette mirror each other.
Tour players have always complained about one thing or another.

 

[golfinnut]

No one ever learned how to play faster on the driving range, IMO. We have a few beginners in our rotation, and our first goal is getting them to enjoy the game. This means being lax with the rules, ie teeing the ball up in the fairway, improving lies etc. It's not uncommon to have them play a tee shot and then drop at the 150 marker, or by the green if they aren't advancing the ball very well. They are out there to enjoy the game and are very aware of their pace. We have a great time, and don't hold anyone up.

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I do this exact same thing when Mrs Nut is playing along with me. If she doesn't hit a great ball off the tee, I pick up and move her to where my ball is. Keeps the pace moving along & we never hold anyone up.

 

[rallo]

For a regulation length golf course "reasonable control of the golf ball" is the skill level to strike a 130 to 150 yard consistently straight shot, and the ability to routinely hit a green from inside 100 yards.

Haha, I can't do either of these

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[kevin81002]

Bottom line is people emulate what they see on TV. They see professionals closing their eyes and saying a prayer before stepping up to the ball, or reading an 8' putt from multiple directions and taking an enormous amount of time to do so, or taking forever to determine a drop location, they'll do it. They see pro's taking 5 1/2 to 6 hours to play a round as a twosome, they think it's ok for their group of 4 to take that amount of time. I agree it makes it tough to get people new to the game to buy in to it when they're constantly waiting to play hole after hole. Like I said in another slow play post, get the PGA to enforce the pace of play with the pros, and that will eliminate the TV perception. And get the OEM's and PGA, USGA etc to release commercials or videos with pace of play tips. I don't think this would be that difficult, and would have an immediate impact. Just in my normal group since I started playing with them, we've shaved off a good hour per round just by getting them to be ready to play when it's their turn instead of waiting til it's their turn to hit to assess the shot.

I enjoy my time on the course 99% of the time regardless of pace. But I know there are those out there that don't have the same patience. As far as not letting people play the game til they're proficient in the game, that's ridiculous.

 

[TheDoctor]

There are some exceptions, but for the most part skill level and etiquette mirror each other.

I don't agree with that

Tour players have always complained about one thing or another.

Doesn't answer my question - why are Tour players complaining about slow play if it isn't an issue?

 

[DG_1234]

That is exactly how the game loses participants. How can the game expect to grow if we tell new players they're not allowed to play a course until they're deemed good enough (by whom?)


Posted by my thumbs.

Consider that 20 years ago Tiger became a household name , made golf "cool", and that brought many newcomers to the game. Back then it was common for beginners to buy a new set of clubs and tee it up at their local full length golf course. However, most soon realized that trying to strike a golf ball is more frustrating than it is fun, so in the back of the garage went the clubs where they still sit today.
If the powers that be in the golf industry, such as the USGA, R&A, PGA Tour, Callaway, Ping, Taylor Made, Titleist etc... truly want to "grow the game" then they need to respect it by promoting golf technique and etiquette instruction.. The First Tee program is trying to do this, and that's great, but it's limited to only youngsters. For adults, I would liike to see the major equipment OEM's subsize PGA instructor lessons. For example, spend $1000 on Callaway (or Ping. TM, Cobra, Titleist) stuff and receive a $100 credit towards a lesson with a local PGA pro.Spend $2,000 and get a $200 lesson voucher etc...
The above would be more productive towards "growing the game" than what's been happening for the past 20 years, which is marketing/advertising telling consumers with .10 cent swings that the latest $500 driver has technology that will help help them. Sure some new tech might help reduce a guy's slice from 30 yards to 25 yards, but does that really matter ? If that consumer actually takes lessons and practices he/she can get the skills to strike nice straight shots, and will definitely then enjoy the game much, much more.

 

[highscoreinky]

Hard to quantify "hurting the game" for everyone. There are certain courses I avoid due to pace of play so there is some lost revenue there as I'm not the only one who stays away from most of our local public courses particularly on weekends. Takes me 2 hours and 15 minutes to walk 18 at my home course if I'm the first one out. Can take 5 1/2 hours if I get out at noon. I see too many players playing from the wrong tee boxes, too much time looking for lost balls, too much time in between shots, etc.

 

[DG_1234]

Haha, I can't do either of these

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Is there a range and, or, par 3 course near you ? Try it, you might like it.

 

[kevin81002]

Is there a range and, or, par 3 course near you ? Try it, you might like it.

I miss a ton of greens from 150 and in as well. Does that mean I too should limit myself to the range and executive courses? Come on, man. You tell people that they can't play a regular course until they're good enough, and they won't even bother with the range or exec courses. They just won't play at all. That doesn't sound like growing the game to me. That's turning it back in to an elitist game.

 

[rallo]

Is there a range and, or, par 3 course near you ? Try it, you might like it.

I'd rather buy a new driver :banana:

 

[OldandStiff]

The more I read this thread, the less I think pace of play is 'hurting the game'. :/ Privilege and elitism seem more the problem.

Some might do well to rent a set of lefties and go humble themselves a round or two with some others out there just trying to enjoy the day and maybe have a chance at 100. Pass on some knowledge on how to fix a ball mark, replace divots, and let others play through while you're at it. The good game of golf might be better for it.