Leftover Range Balls?

[CBaker]

I find it interesting that people find hitting range balls you didn’t pay for = theft, and you should be kicked out.

However a lot of the same people are saying as long as you’ve paid for a bucket in general; you can use those same range balls you didn’t pay for.

I’m confused. You’re still not paying for them? But one is ok and one isn’t?

 

[CBaker]

It also brings up an interesting point where maybe I buy a bucket and let a friend use part of it. Is my friend now scum and stealing from the course because we’re sharing since they didn’t actually directly pay for it?

What about paying it forward where I buy a large bucket, don’t hit 20 of them, and intentionally leave them behind for someone else to use. Is my paying it forward now just making them a bad person when that was my intention all along?

 

[milehighgolfer]

I'll hit left over balls if I bought a bucket and want to hit more. However going to the range with the intent to scrounge up free balls is not proper.
Also if I have balls left over and a kid is on the range, he gets the rest of my bucket.

 

[V14_Heels]

That is a different line of the conversation. The owner would do more harm to their business by micromanaging. That is accurate. It doesn't change the fact you are stealing from them.

There is a break even point for each ball hit. Whatever that is 20 cents for example. All the overhead of paying staff, electricity, mats that have to be replaced, balls that have to be replaced, etc. Every hit on a mat reduces the value of the ball and mat. For every one you hit and not pay for is stealing 20 cents. If 1000 customers a week hit just one ball they didn't pay for it costs the owner $20. That is $7300 dollars per year they are losing because of theft. That is most likely more than their entire budget for mats they have to replace earlier then expected. Balls they have to replace earlier than expected because of theft.

It's quite literally what I was asked about. He asked me if my opinion would change if I was the business owner. That is my response. No, it doesn't change my opinion at all, and then I was just explaining why as a business owner it makes no difference to me. I'm still ok with someone buying a bucket of balls, finishing their bucket and then grabbing some that are within 5-10 yards to get a couple extra in.

Let me try this example instead. There are lots of people who do use the range balls to chip and putt over on the chipping green or putting green. So how is that supposed to work there in your opinion Pilot? Based off of your logic of each ball having a "cent count". Are you suggesting that every ball can only be hit ONCE no matter what. I can only assume people that chip the same ball over and over, or putt the same ball over and over are stealing as well right? And if your answer is well "no that's not the same thing"...well then we have a flaw in logic. Why can the same ball not be shot with an iron over and over on the same dime, but one can chip it over and over just because it's easy to retrieve?

And to further that...even if you are using your own balls? Well now what? You still attributed your "cent count" to wear and tear on the greens, etc. So do you go in and offer a tip to putt your own balls on the green?

 

[pilot25]

It's quite literally what I was asked about. He asked me if my opinion would change if I was the business owner. That is my response. No, it doesn't change my opinion at all, and then I was just explaining why as a business owner it makes no difference to me. I'm still ok with someone buying a bucket of balls, finishing their bucket and then grabbing some that are within 5-10 yards to get a couple extra in.

Let me try this example instead. There are lots of people who do use the range balls to chip and putt over on the chipping green or putting green. So how is that supposed to work there in your opinion Pilot? Based off of your logic of each ball having a "cent count". Are you suggesting that every ball can only be hit ONCE no matter what. I can only assume people that chip the same ball over and over, or putt the same ball over and over are stealing as well right? And if your answer is well "no that's not the same thing"...well then we have a flaw in logic. Why can the same ball not be shot with an iron over and over on the same dime, but one can chip it over and over just because it's easy to retrieve?

And to further that...even if you are using your own balls? Well now what? You still attributed your "cent count" to wear and tear on the greens, etc. So do you go in and offer a tip to putt your own balls on the green?

Every business has a break even budget on the product they are selling. Your estimations of putting and chipping are accurate but as a whole there is an average cost to have a person hit a ball once at a range. If there is a putting green then that is a different product but, yes, there is a break even cost to that too. In the aggregate, the total cost is what determines if the doors stay open or not. As an owner, I can jack the price up equal to the amount of balls hit that aren't paid for and is what I would do. I wouldn't police the range nor ask people to not hit balls they didn't pay for. That would be poor customer service. I would raise the rates which really sucks for everyone else but such is life.

 

[5150]

We can keep going round with different hypotheticals and examples for another several pages. It’ll still boil down to whether one wants to support a local business enough to spend a few $ on a bucket.

It’s worth it to me and the cost is insignificant, so I pay it. I don’t play extra holes, I don’t bring my own beer, and I pay for my range balls - because I care about supporting the business and I think it’s fair.

I don’t understand why this seems to be a tough concept for some.

 

[MagicSpell]

That is a different line of the conversation. The owner would do more harm to their business by micromanaging. That is accurate. It doesn't change the fact you are stealing from them.

There is a break even point for each ball hit. Whatever that is 20 cents for example. All the overhead of paying staff, electricity, mats that have to be replaced, balls that have to be replaced, etc. Every hit on a mat reduces the value of the ball and mat. For every one you hit and not pay for is stealing 20 cents. If 1000 customers a week hit just one ball they didn't pay for it costs the owner $20. That is $7300 dollars per year they are losing because of theft. That is most likely more than their entire budget for mats they have to replace earlier then expected. Balls they have to replace earlier than expected because of theft.

I'm not sure I agree with your argument but I certainly don't agree with your proposed cost per hit. I doubt most of these range balls cost 20 cents a piece in the first place. Even higher end range balls probably are bought in bulk for less than a dollar per ball. How many hits per ball can we expect? Judging by the looks of some of the balls I've been "given" at my local range I'd say they are hit hundreds of times before replacement.

Now as to hitting left over range balls as theft? I think you'd be hard pressed to make a legal case for that. Maybe trespassing but I'm not a lawyer so I don't really know. I will admit to have brought my own balls to the range before a round to loosen up with about 5 or 10 shots. Sometimes there will be a few balls left over from someone before me that I've hit as well. How would you classify that? I stole three extra hits but donated ten balls to the range. Should I turn myself in?

 

[pilot25]

I'm not sure I agree with your argument but I certainly don't agree with your proposed cost per hit.

Ok what is the cost of running a range and how do you break it down into per product costs? Everything has a value. If you have ever run a business then you know everything and I mean everything is broken down into a per unit basis to determine what to charge and how much you can spend to attract business and make a profit.

What is your per unit measure for a golf range?

 

[V14_Heels]

Ok what is the cost of running a range and how do you break it down into per product costs? Everything has a value. If you have ever run a business then you know everything and I mean everything is broken down into a per unit basis to determine what to charge and how much you can spend to attract business and make a profit.

What is your per unit measure for a golf range?

I think overall I’ve decided I hate the business model haha. I think top golf has it right. You pay hourly or in a 30 minute chunk and go hit as many as you want. It just eliminates so many problems imo. It’s an odd pricing structure with chipping greens and putting greens in play where it is obvious common practice where you can hit the balls over and over and over, but when you use an iron instead it’s one and done. It makes less and less sense the more I discuss it in this thread.

 

[MagicSpell]

Ok what is the cost of running a range and how do you break it down into per product costs? Everything has a value. If you have ever run a business then you know everything and I mean everything is broken down into a per unit basis to determine what to charge and how much you can spend to attract business and make a profit.

What is your per unit measure for a golf range?

Well, it's not my measure but I can tell you for the local range at the course I play they set the per unit price at about 11 cents per ball based on what they charge for a bucket ($8 for approximately 70 balls). Since I have no detailed knowledge of any of their costs I have no idea how that per unit price was determined.

 

[*Range Rat]

I stole three extra hits but donated ten balls to the range. Should I turn myself in?

Yes, you should be cuffed & stuffed in the back of a squad car and spend at least a week in the GrayBar Hotel. :bananadance:

 

[pilot25]

Well, it's not my measure but I can tell you for the local range at the course I play they set the per unit price at about 11 cents per ball based on what they charge for a bucket ($8 for approximately 70 balls). Since I have no detailed knowledge of any of their costs I have no idea how that per unit price was determined.

Ok, so we agree there is a per unit basis. I said 20 cents as an example. It was pretty high. Take all their overhead and divide it by how many balls they rent per day and you have your price per unit. Every ball you don't pay for cuts into their profit. Say you hit just one that is 11 cents in aggregated overhead costs. You look at just the ball. That ball represents one unit of cost to the range. You hit one ball which is 11 cents. 100 customers a week decide to hit a "left over" ball or stay at the putting green 5 minutes more than their time they paid for or whatever a person does they didn't pay for. That is a cost to the range on a per unit basis they haven't budgeted for. 100 people x 11 cents is $110 per week which is just over $4000 per year. Next year those 70 balls will cost $9 just to cover the "extra" that some think is no big deal. At some point the price has to keep going up and is higher than people are willing to pay and the range is out of business.

What if everyone just played one more hole at the course and they don't pay for it? What would the cost to the course be? I mean we paid for 18. What is just one more?

 

[V14_Heels]

Ok, so we agree there is a per unit basis. I said 20 cents as an example. It was pretty high. Take all their overhead and divide it by how many balls they rent per day and you have your price per unit. Every ball you don't pay for cuts into their profit. Say you hit just one that is 11 cents in aggregated overhead costs. You look at just the ball. That ball represents one unit of cost to the range. You hit one ball which is 11 cents. 100 customers a week decide to hit a "left over" ball or stay at the putting green 5 minutes more than their time they paid for or whatever a person does they didn't pay for. That is a cost to the range on a per unit basis they haven't budgeted for. 100 people x 11 cents is $110 per week which is just over $4000 per year. Next year those 70 balls will cost $9 just to cover the "extra" that some think is no big deal. At some point the price has to keep going up and is higher than people are willing to pay and the range is out of business.

What if everyone just played one more hole at the course and they don't pay for it? What would the cost to the course be? I mean we paid for 18. What is just one more?

Wait...I think we're confusing unit price here. Was Magic saying the cost of a ball is 11 cents a ball, or each shot on a ball is 11 cents? There's a big difference there.

I find it incredibly hard to believe it costs a course .11 for every range ball hit. There's no way...that wouldn't even be remotely profitable. It's got to be FRACTIONS of a penny per hit.

 

[pilot25]

Wait...I think we're confusing unit price here. Was Magic saying the cost of a ball is 11 cents a ball, or each shot on a ball is 11 cents? There's a big difference there.

I find it incredibly hard to believe it costs a course .11 for every range ball hit. There's no way...that wouldn't even be remotely profitable. It's got to be FRACTIONS of a penny per hit.

Doesn't matter. It was pure example. It cost something that isn't being paid for. Guarantee it isn't fractions. Total the cost of all the overhead and divide it by how many balls are hit in a day. The one person working the counter is going to cost $120 for an 8 hour shift alone. That is 8 buckets of balls at 70 balls a bucket (as priced by poster above). Then you have the kid driving the picker. Cleaning person at night. A manager to make sure the others are doing their jobs and to keep the books. Electricity for the high powered lights at night. Insurance which is sky high. On and on and on the costs add up. No way it is fractions.

If you have a slow day and only a dozen or so people show up to hit, you have lost money that day. It would have been cheaper to not open that day at all. If you go to a range after work or on a weekend and it isn't packed then enjoy it while you can because they won't be long for this world. Hitting balls lying around instead of not paying for them isn't helping.

 

[MagicSpell]

Doesn't matter. It was pure example. It cost something that isn't being paid for. Guarantee it isn't fractions. Total the cost of all the overhead and divide it by how many balls are hit in a day. The one person working the counter is going to cost $120 for an 8 hour shift alone. That is 8 buckets of balls at 70 balls a bucket (as priced by poster above). Then you have the kid driving the picker. Cleaning person at night. A manager to make sure the others are doing their jobs and to keep the books. Electricity for the high powered lights at night. Insurance which is sky high. On and on and on the costs add up. No way it is fractions.

If you have a slow day and only a dozen or so people show up to hit, you have lost money that day. It would have been cheaper to not open that day at all. If you go to a range after work or on a weekend and it isn't packed then enjoy it while you can because they won't be long for this world. Hitting balls lying around instead of not paying for them isn't helping.

But was it not paid for by whoever left it behind? That's where the argument breaks down. As cbaker2882 mentioned if two of us split a bucket of balls has the range not been compensated based on their own pricing model?

 

[V14_Heels]

Doesn't matter. It was pure example. It cost something that isn't being paid for. Guarantee it isn't fractions. Total the cost of all the overhead and divide it by how many balls are hit in a day. The one person working the counter is going to cost $120 for an 8 hour shift alone. That is 8 buckets of balls at 70 balls a bucket (as priced by poster above). Then you have the kid driving the picker. Cleaning person at night. A manager to make sure the others are doing their jobs and to keep the books. Electricity for the high powered lights at night. Insurance which is sky high. On and on and on the costs add up. No way it is fractions.

If you have a slow day and only a dozen or so people show up to hit, you have lost money that day. It would have been cheaper to not open that day at all. If you go to a range after work or on a weekend and it isn't packed then enjoy it while you can because they won't be long for this world. Hitting balls lying around instead of not paying for them isn't helping.

Yea but you just equated and aligned the guy behind the counter exclusively to the range. That's not how that works...yea he costs $120 but he's providing other services so it's not a simple break down like you are describing. Neither are the cart boys. Yea they go run the rakes once every couple of hours to pick up balls, but they do all this other stuff in between.

@Magic - No, because he's equating cost to EVERY hit being taken on a range ball. Really his argument boils down to you're not paying for a basket of range balls, you're paying to hit each and every single ball. I don't think anyone has problems with your scenario of you bought a basket and each hit half. It's when you pick up a leftover ball left on the range that there is a problem. You didn't pay for that "hit".

 

[pilot25]

Yea but you just equated and aligned the guy behind the counter exclusively to the range. That's not how that works...yea he costs $120 but he's providing other services so it's not a simple break down like you are describing. Neither are the cart boys. Yea they go run the rakes once every couple of hours to pick up balls, but they do all this other stuff in between.

@Magic - No, because he's equating cost to EVERY hit being taken on a range ball. Really his argument boils down to you're not paying for a basket of range balls, you're paying to hit each and every single ball. I don't think anyone has problems with your scenario of you bought a basket and each hit half. It's when you pick up a leftover ball left on the range that there is a problem. You didn't pay for that "hit".

Ok how does that matter? So they do other stuff that means they cost less?

Taking from that business and not paying for it's products and services is wrong. Plain and simple. You guys who take from a business can rationalize all you want but you aren't paying for the service they are providing.

 

[OGputtnfool]

Before I post, I want some clarification. @pilot25, are you against a person hitting leftover balls on the range (i.e. I leave 1/2 of my bucket for the next guy) or only people retrieving balls that have already been hit?

 

[Putterbutter]

Before I post, I want some clarification. @pilot25, are you against a person hitting leftover balls on the range (i.e. I leave 1/2 of my bucket for the next guy) or only people retrieving balls that have already been hit?

I never finish my bucket either! I leave when I’m in a groove. When there’s a kid around I’ll tell em to finish hitting them.


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[OGputtnfool]

I never finish my bucket either! I leave when I’m in a groove. When there’s a kid around I’ll tell em to finish hitting them.


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We must be contributing to the delinquency of minors...

 

[Imaginos]

Classic marketing department vs accounting department feud! Damn bean counters!