I Can’t Outdrive You, But....

[MonroeBob1955]

...Maybe I can out think you.

I love competing at golf even though I’ll never be a champ or A flight golfer. I simply cannot drive the ball far enough to even reach the green on any hole over 420 normally.

In a recent tournament on a very tough golf course, there is hole 11. A gorgeous 277 yard uphill slight dogleg left hole. Oh yes, water along left side. Six or seven large deep bunkers from 100 in. Large pines, thick and deep right.

After ten holes it’s quite apparent my opponents can easily outdrive me by 30-60 yards on every drive. Of course, they are hitting less than 50% of the fairways to this point. As usual I’m the short knocker.

To my surprise all three of my opponents break out driver. One in the trees right, one in a cavernous bunker and one in the creek. I grabbed 3H, hit it out just short of the bunkers. Wedged to 15’ and an easy two putt par. All three doubled or worse.

In the practice round the previous day, same results, except I actually got a birdie.

I do love courses that are hard and you have to think your way around. Such a sense of accomplishment when you can survive it.






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[NullNomad]

This is my kind of golf. I love picking points along the hole to go after rather than 'I crushed it for 290+... in the woods'. The flip side of this and I don't know if you struggle with it, but because I play conservative position golf I really don't know when to really get aggressive and take the big risk.

 

[radiman]

...Maybe I can out think you.

I love competing at golf even though I’ll never be a champ or A flight golfer. I simply cannot drive the ball far enough to even reach the green on any hole over 420 normally.

In a recent tournament on a very tough golf course, there is hole 11. A gorgeous 277 yard uphill slight dogleg left hole. Oh yes, water along left side. Six or seven large deep bunkers from 100 in. Large pines, thick and deep right.

After ten holes it’s quite apparent my opponents can easily outdrive me by 30-60 yards on every drive. Of course, they are hitting less than 50% of the fairways to this point. As usual I’m the short knocker.

To my surprise all three of my opponents break out driver. One in the trees right, one in a cavernous bunker and one in the creek. I grabbed 3H, hit it out just short of the bunkers. Wedged to 15’ and an easy two putt par. All three doubled or worse.

In the practice round the previous day, same results, except I actually got a birdie.

I do love courses that are hard and you have to think your way around. Such a sense of accomplishment when you can survive it.






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A classic risk/reward hole. They took the risk, and it obviously didn't pay off

We have a shorter par 4 on our course that is guarded by water on both sides with very very little room off the fairway. Even the longer players will only go for it if they absolutely have to force something to happen, or if they have been striping driver all day.

 

[MonroeBob1955]

I’ll tend to get more aggressive when there’s no trouble where my normal miss would be. Example is my normal miss with my mid/long irons is over-cooking left. And my FW is big fade right. No trouble in those spots and I’ll tend to be more aggressive on my shots.


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[radiman]

I’ll tend to get more aggressive when there’s no trouble where my normal miss would be. Example is my normal miss with my mid/long irons is over-cooking left. And my FW is big fade right. No trouble in those spots and I’ll tend to be more aggressive on my shots.


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Yeah, that's a pretty good time to take a shot. Play smarter. I wish I could say I do when I should. I have been known to be a wee bit too aggressive at times.

 

[MonroeBob1955]

Yeah, that's a pretty good time to take a shot. Play smarter. I wish I could say I do when I should. I have been known to be a wee bit too aggressive at times.

Oh I understand totally. This was an example where I did something right. I’ve done the wrong (more aggressive) and paid for it more times than I can count. :-(.


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[DG_1234]

My observation is that distance is ridiculously over rated and promoted by golf equipment companies, talking heads like Haney etc...
Most of the lowest scoring players I know are not the longest hitters. On the pro Tours and collegiate teams worldwide there are thousands of long hitters but relatively few sensational short game players.
Merion is less than 7,000 yards and over par won the US Open there about 5 years ago.

 

[MonroeBob1955]

My observation is that distance is ridiculously over rated and promoted by golf equipment companies, talking heads like Haney etc...
Most of the lowest scoring players I know are not the longest hitters. On the pro Tours and collegiate teams worldwide there are thousands of long hitters but relatively few sensational short game players.
Merion is less than 7,000 yards and over par won the US Open there about 5 years ago.

I agree 1000%


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[Grins]

...Maybe I can out think you.

I love competing at golf even though I’ll never be a champ or A flight golfer. I simply cannot drive the ball far enough to even reach the green on any hole over 420 normally.

In a recent tournament on a very tough golf course, there is hole 11. A gorgeous 277 yard uphill slight dogleg left hole. Oh yes, water along left side. Six or seven large deep bunkers from 100 in. Large pines, thick and deep right.

After ten holes it’s quite apparent my opponents can easily outdrive me by 30-60 yards on every drive. Of course, they are hitting less than 50% of the fairways to this point. As usual I’m the short knocker.

To my surprise all three of my opponents break out driver. One in the trees right, one in a cavernous bunker and one in the creek. I grabbed 3H, hit it out just short of the bunkers. Wedged to 15’ and an easy two putt par. All three doubled or worse.

In the practice round the previous day, same results, except I actually got a birdie.

I do love courses that are hard and you have to think your way around. Such a sense of accomplishment when you can survive it.

Nice post! Unfortunately my game is such that when I do try and play smarter, I still screw up lol! Like duffing that 3H or duck-hooking it for the first time all day.

I am getting better at making these shots & smart plays, so hopefully my HC will be coming down as I improve this area of my game

 

[Chisag]

My observation is that distance is ridiculously over rated and promoted by golf equipment companies, talking heads like Haney etc...
Most of the lowest scoring players I know are not the longest hitters. On the pro Tours and collegiate teams worldwide there are thousands of long hitters but relatively few sensational short game players.

... Length is always an advantage as long as it is accurate length. But the most awesome thing about this game is it can be played so many different ways. Thankfully at 66 I am almost as long as I ever was, thanks to working out and equipment advances. I have never been LONG, but I can drive it in the 260-290 range. I have alway felt the best way to learn the game and excel at it is from the hole backwards. So as my length begins to wane, I will have a stellar short game to rely on. I do think the added mental game the OP describes is essential for any length but usually those that are medium to shorter off the tee just seem better at it.

 

[Sox_Fan]

Course management is often times > bomb and gouge

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Yeah, a lot of short hitters think that automatically makes them smarter than the big dumb lummox who can hit 50 yards past them.

In my observation there are exactly as many smart vs. dumb long hitters as short hitters. Golf intelligence has no correlation with clubhead speed.

 

[Hackapotamus]

I realize that the stats show that bomb and gouge works on tour, and most likely at the other highest levels of golf. Koepka and DJ are going to be better from 60 yards out of the left rough, over the course of 72 holes or maybe even 10, than the average tour pro is from 110 out in the fairway. It's been proven out.

But I think this kind of thinking can do more harm than good to the average weekender or even club golfer. If you're not a single-digit or better, are you really better served by pulling the driver on the short but tight par 4? The pros' misses with driver are usually manageable; amateurs' misses result in extra strokes, lost balls, and longer rounds. Plus, even if by some miracle they hit it straight, they're often left with partial wedges or 50-foot putts, both extremely challenging shots for the mid-to-high capper.

Course management is so underrated, and sometimes that includes knowing when to be aggressive and when the risk is worth the reward. But I fear that "distance is king" really should only apply to pros and maybe young golfers (the old Gary Player maxim that you hit it hard first and then learn to hit it straight). The more time you spend chasing 5 more yards, the less time you're spending figuring out how to get down in two from 40 yards or simply making more consistent contact.

 

[radiman]

I realize that the stats show that bomb and gouge works on tour, and most likely at the other highest levels of golf. Koepka and DJ are going to be better from 60 yards out of the left rough, over the course of 72 holes or maybe even 10, than the average tour pro is from 110 out in the fairway. It's been proven out.

But I think this kind of thinking can do more harm than good to the average weekender or even club golfer. If you're not a single-digit or better, are you really better served by pulling the driver on the short but tight par 4? The pros' misses with driver are usually manageable; amateurs' misses result in extra strokes, lost balls, and longer rounds. Plus, even if by some miracle they hit it straight, they're often left with partial wedges or 50-foot putts, both extremely challenging shots for the mid-to-high capper.

Course management is so underrated, and sometimes that includes knowing when to be aggressive and when the risk is worth the reward. But I fear that "distance is king" really should only apply to pros and maybe young golfers (the old Gary Player maxim that you hit it hard first and then learn to hit it straight). The more time you spend chasing 5 more yards, the less time you're spending figuring out how to get down in two from 40 yards or simply making more consistent contact.

I agree. Course management is underrated to some degree. I have seen and have been guilty of playing with reckless abandon. Often time, paying the price as a result. I agree with most of your post aside from using any sort of handicap as a deciding factor. It's all about playing to your strengths. And, often times someone who is shorter off the tee, isn't going to be offline nearly as much. They would also possibly be best served being as close to the green as possible. But, all situational in the end.

 

[DataDude]

My observation is that distance is ridiculously over rated and promoted by golf equipment companies, talking heads like Haney etc...
Most of the lowest scoring players I know are not the longest hitters. On the pro Tours and collegiate teams worldwide there are thousands of long hitters but relatively few sensational short game players.
Merion is less than 7,000 yards and over par won the US Open there about 5 years ago.

I have been playing a game called WGT Golf on my phone. Merion is on there and it is stupid hard. Every hole is well defended. This game also has Pinehurst No. 2. I can tell you just from this game you are stupid if you go pin seeking there. Just take middle distance, and aim at the center of the green. There is little to know chance of your ball staying on the green if you land anywhere outside of a 5-10 yard diameter circle in the center of their greens. If you get a birdie at Pinehurst you are going to have to earn it with your putter or by having a really short 3rd shot on a par 5.

 

[DG_1234]

I have been playing a game called WGT Golf on my phone. Merion is on there and it is stupid hard. Every hole is well defended. This game also has Pinehurst No. 2. I can tell you just from this game you are stupid if you go pin seeking there. Just take middle distance, and aim at the center of the green. There is little to know chance of your ball staying on the green if you land anywhere outside of a 5-10 yard diameter circle in the center of their greens. If you get a birdie at Pinehurst you are going to have to earn it with your putter or by having a really short 3rd shot on a par 5.

Here in SF the Olympic Club had hosted 4 or 5 US Open's but the club membership believed (to get future Open's) the USGA would want the score card to exceed 7,000 yards. So, the club members hired an architect to take the course from 6,850 to about 7.200 yards. I think this work ruined a few of Olympic's signature holes, including the short par 4 7th and short par 3 8th. Hopefully, the stupidity of lengthening golf courses will soon come to an end.
Narrow fairways and small undulating greens can easily make a 6,700 yard course play harder to score well on than a 7,300 yard course.

 

[Tee/Ski]

Played with a guy today that's 25 years older than I am. His driver goes 210 and fairway, He was in the rough once. Mine goes 250 and sprays. I got to enjoy chipping out to the fairway on multiple occasions and he just kept hitting it straight. I shot 86, he shot 83, both of us from the whites.

Next week I'm going to leave my driver out of the bag for a round and see how it goes.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Played with a guy today that's 25 years older than I am. His driver goes 210 and fairway, He was in the rough once. Mine goes 250 and sprays. I got to enjoy chipping out to the fairway on multiple occasions and he just kept hitting it straight. I shot 86, he shot 83, both of us from the whites.

Next week I'm going to leave my driver out of the bag for a round and see how it goes.

He may just be much straighter than you because he's got a better swing!

My observation has been that the majority guys who are seriously wild with the driver still tend to miss fairways when they tee off with a 3-wood or long iron. But I have seen a few whose wildness was only with the driver specifically.

 

[OldandStiff]

I've struggled with this a little since I started playing again. I consider myself pretty aggressive on the course unless conditions are just really poor. I'm rarely afraid off the tee, and I really like to attack any pin I think I can with my irons. I try to play more conservatively on occasion though. A week or so ago I noticed that the days I *think* I'm playing smarter I don't really don't score any better. On occasion, worse. So I sat down with a friend and player I trust, and after he looked through my rounds he noticed some interesting things. What he saw was that I hit about 2 of every 3 fairways, but my misses usually aren't drastic and don't cost me much. Also saw that I hit a slightly lower percentage of greens from the fairway than off. Surprising to me, and as you might see in my signature I'm still sorting out which wedges I want to play, so my scrambling percentage is just under 50% :/. Anyway, we came to the conclusion that on the courses around me I should maybe be even more aggressive off the tee, and maybe slightly less aggressive on my second shots, like I tend to when I miss the fairway. Haven't had much of a chance to apply this theory, but the value of course management can never be underrated. It can definitely matter more than 20 extra yards. I'll take that extra 20 if the gods want to gift it to me though, just because it's the polite thing to do.

 

[DataDude]

Here in SF the Olympic Club had hosted 4 or 5 US Open's but the club membership believed (to get future Open's) the USGA would want the score card to exceed 7,000 yards. So, the club members hired an architect to take the course from 6,850 to about 7.200 yards. I think this work ruined a few of Olympic's signature holes, including the short par 4 7th and short par 3 8th. Hopefully, the stupidity of lengthening golf courses will soon come to an end.
Narrow fairways and small undulating greens can easily make a 6,700 yard course play harder to score well on than a 7,300 yard course.

Plus it really helps determine the best golfer, not the best golfer of the golfers who are long enough to even have a chance off the tee. I am so tired of course lengthening.

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[rollin]

My observation is that distance is ridiculously over rated and promoted by golf equipment companies, talking heads like Haney etc...
Most of the lowest scoring players I know are not the longest hitters. On the pro Tours and collegiate teams worldwide there are thousands of long hitters but relatively few sensational short game players.
Merion is less than 7,000 yards and over par won the US Open there about 5 years ago.

but your comparing players and thats not fair towards making the point.
Most anyone who plays the game will be better off if they can hit further than they currently do. Forget what anyone else does. The same person is simply better off with extra yards against their former self. Generally speaking, using shorter clubs is always more advantageous and the longer one can hit not only do they end up with less yardage left over to the greens but also use shorter clubs than others when from those same yardages. Not to mention can use shorter clubs from tees too. So its actually a compounded positive to hit longer. Its not overrated and certainly not ridiculously overrated. It matters a lot to each person.

If I could hit the ball even only just one club longer.....not only will I be one club closer but I be using two clubs less for that shot. Firstly Im one club closer but because I hit one club longer than before and Im now using 2 clubs less for that shot. That previous 7i approach via my shorter driver shot is now a 9i because I gained a club on my driver and with my irons. Just play that card in most any scenario all day and that is huge difference for the better.

 

[JonMA1]

All other things being equal, having the ability to hit longer or, more importantly, the ability to advance ball farther is a definite advantage.

But so what? I fail to see how knowing this can help the average golfer. Other than drastically improving our mechanics and possibly squeezing out an extra 10 to 20 yards (which would be nice, btw), we are stuck with what we have distance-wise. Especially those of us who are past our prime.

Also, all other things being equal, having the ability to hit straighter is a definite advantage. In my small world, I'm getting beat by those who are more accurate.

So the question for me becomes what part of the game requires the most practice. The idea that hitting longer equals better scores doesn’t really help me much.

On the subject of strategy, isn’t it sometimes smarter to pull a longer club?

I play from short tees - almost always under 6,000 yards and often under 5500. On my home course there is a short, dog leg right par 4 with a fairway bunker right in the middle of the bend. The common shot is a 150 - 170 yard shot left of the bunker, leaving another 150 yards to the green on the approach. It’s not like this option A is without risk, but it’s what almost every golfer plays.

For the last couple of years, I’ve been cutting the corner on this hole with my driver. The risks are getting the ball high enough to clear the trees, while keeping my fade from turning into a push slice. That’s it. The reward is a partial gap wedge to the green instead of a long iron as is the case with option A. I’ve had a lot of success using this option and I’m a really poor golfer.

As a shorter hitter, I have two opinions on dealing with this weakness, 1) in addition to working harder on the short game, become as accurate and confident as I can with the long clubs, and 2) while it’s a common mistake to take dumb chances, the shorter option isn’t always the smarter option.

 

[5150]

I don't bomb it... I'm probably around 225 off the tee, 250 if I get one, MAYBE 275 if I get a big bounce/rollout. So I have to find other ways to score.

I've spent a lot of time on shots inside 100 and it's really paid off. Everyone's oohing and ahhing over the guy who out drove me by 50y, meanwhile I'm calmly writing down par after chipping one close and Long Drive Guy chunks two chips en route to a double.

One thing that puzzles me about Long Drive Guy - he constantly drives himself into shots he can't hit with his wedges.

Case in point: we have several short par 4s on my home course. #3 is 290, #4 275, #5 305, #6 310, #9 300. I play with several guys who insist on driver, smack one out there, then get to the ball and say oh I'm terrible with partial swings, I need a full swing with my wedges.

Ok, so, maybe lay back off the tee to a yardage you like, then? I'm puzzled by that. Maybe the long drive is the fun part of the game for them, rather than scoring?

 

[MonroeBob1955]

Case in point: we have several short par 4s on my home course. #3 is 290, #4 275, #5 305, #6 310, #9 300. I play with several guys who insist on driver, smack one out there, then get to the ball and say oh I'm terrible with partial swings, I need a full swing with my wedges.

Ok, so, maybe lay back off the tee to a yardage you like, then? I'm puzzled by that. Maybe the long drive is the fun part of the game for them, rather than scoring?

Oh I know. I see this so often it totally dumbfounds me. Apparently zero understanding of course management.



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[5150]

Oh I know. I see this so often it totally dumbfounds me. Apparently zero understanding of course management.



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Right? And the course knows it’s full of short par 4s so all the defenses are around the green or just short of it: tall grass, trees, etc. They’re daring you to go after it.

My best score ever there was a +1 36 (it’s a 9 hole) and I left everything longer than a 5i in the car that day.