I Can’t Outdrive You, But....

[OldandStiff]

I don't bomb it... I'm probably around 225 off the tee, 250 if I get one, MAYBE 275 if I get a big bounce/rollout. So I have to find other ways to score.

I've spent a lot of time on shots inside 100 and it's really paid off. Everyone's oohing and ahhing over the guy who out drove me by 50y, meanwhile I'm calmly writing down par after chipping one close and Long Drive Guy chunks two chips en route to a double.

One thing that puzzles me about Long Drive Guy - he constantly drives himself into shots he can't hit with his wedges.

Case in point: we have several short par 4s on my home course. #3 is 290, #4 275, #5 305, #6 310, #9 300. I play with several guys who insist on driver, smack one out there, then get to the ball and say oh I'm terrible with partial swings, I need a full swing with my wedges.

Ok, so, maybe lay back off the tee to a yardage you like, then? I'm puzzled by that. Maybe the long drive is the fun part of the game for them, rather than scoring?

If they're out driving you by 50 yds they're on the green or chipping/pitching. That's beyond partials imo. I do see this sometimes though. Guys hitting into 3/4 wedge shots they suck at. I think part of it can be that the average guy likes to do what he's good at. It makes him feel good. If the best or only good part of your game was your driving, would you really want to leave that club in the bag all day?

 

[5150]

If they're out driving you by 50 yds they're on the green or chipping/pitching. That's beyond partials imo. I do see this sometimes though. Guys hitting into 3/4 wedge shots they suck at. I think part of it can be that the average guy likes to do what he's good at. It makes him feel good. If the best or only good part of your game was your driving, would you really want to leave that club in the bag all day?

Most of the guys at the club are 260-270y off the tee. There are a few who can get it close or on, but not many who can do so consistently and avoid the hazards around the greens.

I agree that many just want to do what they’re good at. They get a kick out of a long drive.

I get a kick out of watching them make bogey or double from 30y and taking their money

 

[myspinonit]

One of my best friends is 77 (I'm a senior too, but younger) is a short knocker. I'm talking maybe 170 off the tee, with just a 17 degree 3W now- that wins many of our league's net comps and does well in some straight up comps too against players with lower caps. Before you think sandbagger...no...I've played many, many rounds with him here and away and he counts every score, every shot and putts 'em all out. He just assumes he's going to get on in three in all but the shoertest par 4's and has a deadly short game from 130 and in.

He would be shooting in the 70's again surely if he played reds (we play modest whites). But he says he'd be giving up too many strokes (with the 3 stroke or so adjustment factor against others playing whites after losing a stroke or two just going to reds.


He never takes a shot he can't pull off realistically. If we are away somewhere and I'm thinking of pulling off a risky shot, my wife says "what would Gary do?". Answer: he'd lay up with a comfortable club off the tee or on an approach shot, hit his approach close and drain the putt.

 

[uitar99]

That's my new mantra "what would Gary do"

At my first mens night this year, I tried stupid shots (following two bad shots) that cost me 4 strokes. I have tried all season to remember not to make a stupid shot after a bad shot.

So far...its reducing the doubles and the handicap has come down almost 4 points.

One of my best friends is 77 (I'm a senior too, but younger) is a short knocker. I'm talking maybe 170 off the tee, with just a 17 degree 3W now- that wins many of our league's net comps and does well in some straight up comps too against players with lower caps. Before you think sandbagger...no...I've played many, many rounds with him here and away and he counts every score, every shot and putts 'em all out. He just assumes he's going to get on in three in all but the shoertest par 4's and has a deadly short game from 130 and in.

He would be shooting in the 70's again surely if he played reds (we play modest whites). But he says he'd be giving up too many strokes (with the 3 stroke or so adjustment factor against others playing whites after losing a stroke or two just going to reds.


He never takes a shot he can't pull off realistically. If we are away somewhere and I'm thinking of pulling off a risky shot, my wife says "what would Gary do?". Answer: he'd lay up with a comfortable club off the tee or on an approach shot, hit his approach close and drain the putt.

 

[DG_1234]

Plus it really helps determine the best golfer, not the best golfer of the golfers who are long enough to even have a chance off the tee.

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That is a very good point.

 

[DG_1234]

All other things being equal, having the ability to hit longer or, more importantly, the ability to advance ball farther is a definite advantage.

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One thing to remember is that long driving (or any emphasis on playing shots to achieve maximum distance) is usually counter productive to the skills and touch needed to play other golf shots.

 

[Smiter]

One thing to remember is that long driving (or any emphasis on playing shots to achieve maximum distance) is usually counter productive to the skills and touch needed to play other golf shots.

I don’t usually agree with you, but you have a point. Age and illness have greatly reduced my distance this year, but I can’t even begin to count the number of shorter 4’s and all 5’s that I’ve had an eagle chip that I’ve made bogey on.

From just off I’ve made more bogeys than I have birdies in my life, probably in a 2-1 lifetime ratio. Par was still made probably 2-1 lifetime over the other two combined but I’ve definitely made more lifetime bogeys than birdies having an eagle chance from 10 yards or less off the green.

 

[rollin]

I don't bomb it... I'm probably around 225 off the tee, 250 if I get one, MAYBE 275 if I get a big bounce/rollout. So I have to find other ways to score.

I've spent a lot of time on shots inside 100 and it's really paid off. Everyone's oohing and ahhing over the guy who out drove me by 50y, meanwhile I'm calmly writing down par after chipping one close and Long Drive Guy chunks two chips en route to a double.

One thing that puzzles me about Long Drive Guy - he constantly drives himself into shots he can't hit with his wedges.

Case in point: we have several short par 4s on my home course. #3 is 290, #4 275, #5 305, #6 310, #9 300. I play with several guys who insist on driver, smack one out there, then get to the ball and say oh I'm terrible with partial swings, I need a full swing with my wedges.

Ok, so, maybe lay back off the tee to a yardage you like, then? I'm puzzled by that. Maybe the long drive is the fun part of the game for them, rather than scoring?

first of all.....imo your not exactly short. No your not a bomber but vs most amatrues your simply not really all that short and maybe even among the longer half, but I suppose that depends on the company your normally in. But you shouldnt be starving for ways to score especially if your on tees appropriate for your yardge.

That being said, there are other things to consider with what you've mentioned above about the longer hitter/s. Basically they are not good at short pitching is all that is being said. But that is going to be the case whether they hit the driver or not. And just because they would lay up with a shorter tee club does not at all mean they would then hit the green with second shots anyway nor does it mean they would hit the shorter tee shots where they wanted as well. They may very well (and in fact very likely) would still need to make the similar short pitches anyway and their game will likely suffer just the same regardless.

In this situation your figuring they are not managing well but all they are really guilty of is not possessing much a short pitching game. That's not mismanaging but is imo simply lack of ability in a given area of play. Mismanaging would be imo if they were hitting long flirting with and into risky troubles and too often finding themselves in them. Reminds me of a par5 hole on one my courses where the risk is driver over the trees of a sharp dog. So many people go for it and so many most often fail and end up costing them a stroke or even 2. I have the distance but Im only placing the shot where it needs to be probably 2 of 10 times so the only time I go for it is when my driver is on one of those "on fire" rounds. Otherwise and most times I lay up to the leg with anything from a 3w.5w. or even a 4h (wind dependent) and I am very often outscoring majority of the risk takers on this hole because of it.

So I am all for what your getting at. But just that your example imho is a bit misplaced. You posses a much better short game and that part is imo correct but the mismanaging part not so mach. Mis-practicing perhaps lol but not mismanaging.

 

[JonMA1]

One thing to remember is that long driving (or any emphasis on playing shots to achieve maximum distance) is usually counter productive to the skills and touch needed to play other golf shots.

I guess at my level it's mostly about keeping the ball in play. There are days when the driver is my worst enemy. If there was a way to know this before the round, I'd gladly save strokes by leaving it at home. But there are other days when I'm hitting most of my fairways with that club. Sadly, on those days it's another part of my game costing me strokes.

I don't swing out of my shoes with any of my clubs. I'm not trying to hit my drives farther than an 80-90% swing will get me. But the driver still gets more yardage than my 5w - and it's not like using that shorter club is a guarantee against hitting out of bounds or topping the ball into the swamp.

If there's trouble at 200-220 yards from the tee, the driver is not the right club. On the other hand, a slightly narrow par 4 fairway is not going to prevent me from pulling the longest club in the bag (unless I'm really spraying it around on that particular day). It has almost nothing to do with ego and almost everything to do with my perceived advantage of being closer to the green for my next club selection.

Maybe I'm wrong about this. It's not like I'm lighting it up on the course these days.

 

[rollin]

One thing to remember is that long driving (or any emphasis on playing shots to achieve maximum distance) is usually counter productive to the skills and touch needed to play other golf shots.

Is that really true? How is that so? Are you suggesting one can not know how to maximize distance and also know how to be efficient at shorter and touchy shots at the same time?

 

[rollin]

I guess at my level it's mostly about keeping the ball in play. There are days when the driver is my worst enemy. If there was a way to know this before the round, I'd gladly save strokes by leaving it at home. But there are other days when I'm hitting most of my fairways with that club. Sadly, on those days it's another part of my game costing me strokes.

I don't swing out of my shoes with any of my clubs. I'm not trying to hit my drives farther than an 80-90% swing will get me. But the driver still gets more yardage than my 5w - and it's not like using that shorter club is a guarantee against hitting out of bounds or topping the ball into the swamp.

If there's trouble at 200-220 yards from the tee, the driver is not the right club. On the other hand, a slightly narrow par 4 fairway is not going to prevent me from pulling the longest club in the bag (unless I'm really spraying it around on that particular day). It has almost nothing to do with ego and almost everything to do with my perceived advantage of being closer to the green for my next club selection.

Maybe I'm wrong about this. It's not like I'm lighting it up on the course these days.

This sounds similar to me and my logic. Im playing the longest shots I can within my ability (including how Im hitting that day) vs the hole layout and conditions that are facing said shot.

 

[tahoebum]

I rarely see a bogey golfer, even the ones that are as long or longer than me, hit anything but driver off the tee on a par 5 or par 4 over 320 yards. I almost never hit driver on any par 4 under 400 yards.


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[DG_1234]

Is that really true? How is that so? Are you suggesting one can not know how to maximize distance and also know how to be efficient at shorter and touchy shots at the same time?

Most often this is true, yes. For example, at the extreme are long drive competitors, some of whom do not even play golf. They've grooved a swing for one shot, the long tee ball. Consequently, anything less than that, such as a 7-iron or wedge shot, becomes especially challenging.
In their prime years, both Nicklaus and Tiger stated they very rarely tried for maximum distance off the tee. The reason for this is in part about accuracy, but just as much due to a desire to maintain good rhythm and tempo throughout the bag. Hal Sutton used to do his range practice with only a 9-iron. He knew that if he could strike consistently square, quality impact shots with his 9-iron then his rhythm/tempo was good and his long club shots would therefore be good.At the range amateurs tend to make way too many driver (and other long club) swings, which has a way of wrecking swing tempo/rhythm for the other clubs within the bag.

 

[wubears71]

I have to post because this thread infuriates me - as if long hitters are dumber than short hitters. Being long off the tee will always be advantageous because one can hit the ball into places that shorter hitters just cannot reach. But, long hitters can always take less club and be in the exact same place as short hitters.

It's a course management issue, not a long vs short issue.

 

[JonMA1]

I have to post because this thread infuriates me - as if long hitters are dumber than short hitters. Being long off the tee will always be advantageous because one can hit the ball into places that shorter hitters just cannot reach. But, long hitters can always take less club and be in the exact same place as short hitters.

It's a course management issue, not a long vs short issue.

This is always what I'd been taught. And in my limited experience, longer hitters (who are serious golfers) can be as accurate as everyone else. Distance or higher swing speed is also an advantage because even if we both are shooting our next shots from the same distance, you (long hitters) are using a pitching wedge while I'm pulling a mid to long iron. Which club would any of us rather have in our hands?

However, in my small world the only thing I have a prayer of improving upon is the accuracy of those long clubs. I will never be a long hitter, but hopefully I'll be able to pull the driver on tighter holes while others choose to club down. (Probably won't happen, but that's the practice plan.)

 

[OldandStiff]

I rarely see a bogey golfer, even the ones that are as long or longer than me, hit anything but driver off the tee on a par 5 or par 4 over 320 yards. I almost never hit driver on any par 4 under 400 yards.

Comparing yourself to a bogey golfer with length here is a bit of a stretch though. You're a 1-ish hcp who played college golf if I remember right. I play with some bogey golfers who have decent length and I wouldn't expect their approach to be the same as yours or mine. I mean, some of it would benefit them, but they're just different players. Your typical bogey golfer with decent length might be 275 off the tee with driver, but all over the place. Clubbing down isn't necessarily going to improve their game though. The whole mentality of 'hitting a nice little 3 wood/long iron/whatever just to find the fairway' doesn't always apply. For some the driver might be their best club. For others hitting a more lofted wood or long iron might not increase their chances of finding fairway at all. Might even lessen it. And a missed fairway further from the hole than one missed closer tends to hurt that player more overall.

I had a conversation a couple weeks ago with a guy in our group about this on one hole and it came down to, 'You are NOT straight, but you are long. So would you rather be in the sh*t ~160-180 from the hole near the corner or fly the corner and be in the sh*t from ~40-75?' The whole scene was a good laugh for all of us, and in the end he made the right play for him and actually made a par. Wasn't on the route I'd take to get there, but the smart play for a low hcp'er and a mid-high one can be dramatically different. Unique example, but I think you get what I'm saying.

 

[wubears71]

Here is an example that happens all the time with one of the regular guys I play with. He is extremely accurate but has no length - like 190 to 200 yard drives.

He plays from the whites and I play from the blues or blacks. There is. 609/645 yard par 5 from where I play and about 570 from where he plays. I hit driver, 3w, wedge. He hits driver, 3w, 3w, mid iron. No matter how much his game improves, he will never birdie that hole unless he gets lucky on his 4th shot. I will birdie it 25% of the time and par it about 50% of the time.

That is why distance is so important - it determines your max potential. I can learn to be more accurate and learn better course management. My short hitting buddy will never be long no matter how much he works on it. He may be able to pick up a few yards but not dozens of yards. So, he accepts that he will always be about a 3-4 handicap at best and will never get above that because of his distance limitations.


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[gonyr]

Comparing yourself to a bogey golfer with length here is a bit of a stretch though. You're a 1-ish hcp who played college golf if I remember right. I play with some bogey golfers who have decent length and I wouldn't expect their approach to be the same as yours or mine. I mean, some of it would benefit them, but they're just different players. Your typical bogey golfer with decent length might be 275 off the tee with driver, but all over the place. Clubbing down isn't necessarily going to improve their game though. The whole mentality of 'hitting a nice little 3 wood/long iron/whatever just to find the fairway' doesn't always apply. For some the driver might be their best club. For others hitting a more lofted wood or long iron might not increase their chances of finding fairway at all. Might even lessen it. And a missed fairway further from the hole than one missed closer tends to hurt that player more overall.

I had a conversation a couple weeks ago with a guy in our group about this on one hole and it came down to, 'You are NOT straight, but you are long. So would you rather be in the sh*t ~160-180 from the hole near the corner or fly the corner and be in the sh*t from ~40-75?' The whole scene was a good laugh for all of us, and in the end he made the right play for him and actually made a par. Wasn't on the route I'd take to get there, but the smart play for a low hcp'er and a mid-high one can be dramatically different. Unique example, but I think you get what I'm saying.

Well said. Your example describes me perfectly. I hit longer than many of the guys I play with, although they usually score better than me on average. Clubbing down wouldn't really help me at all, unless I got all the way to about a 7-iron off the tee. Then it's costing so much distance that there's an extra shot coming anyway. I lose most of my strokes on 2nd or 3rd shots, not off the tee.

 

[rollin]

I rarely see a bogey golfer, even the ones that are as long or longer than me, hit anything but driver off the tee on a par 5 or par 4 over 320 yards. I almost never hit driver on any par 4 under 400 yards.


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Imo it all depends on the layout of the hole.

of my 5 county courses there are two par 4holes (on the same course) that are pretty darn short. One plays from 250 to 265 depending on tees (and ever so slight downhill) and the other about 25 yrds longer. On the shorter one I use driver and its only because the hole holds no integrity towards a miss with the driver. I mean no you cant be errant of course but even a not so good shot deosnt hurt you. So why not use driver there? Why not be as close as possible when little risk is involved? and fwiw there are times I have been on. The other (longer one) however has the creek that is about near my landing zone and so on that hole I bag my driver always. So basically I have little reason to use driver on one of them and little reason not to use it on the other.

There are many doglegs on my courses where my driver (if hit well) but also hit too straight where as I dont cut the inside corner or shape the shot I can end up through the leg and into woods. I never use driver on them. Depending on winds and tee placements I will instead use 4h,5w,or 3w. Its all layout and condition dependent.

I have (in fact I constantly) see too many people (*as you suggest) mismanage via using driver recklessly when not only unnecessary but also risky. Its done far too much imo. And we can say the same for second shots on par5's with 3woods and such. But Ive also seen "some" people over manage and bag it when there is no real reason too. And that can be just as much a detriment as the other.