Rules Question

[Daddio]

AWESOME reply wadesworld. So thorough. Thanks.

 

[ntanygd760]

That cart path is one of those weird situations where even if I was outside of the hazard I probably play it off the path as you might have a fighting chance to stop the 35 yard wedge close to the pin where the rough you probably won't.

 

[olperfesser]

Per the Rules of Golf, relief with a 1 shot penalty. Per common sense, red line is misplaced. In a tournament, call the rules official, but don't expect free relief. In a casual game, take the free relief, and complain at the pro shop after the round.

 

[InTheRough]

So this got brought up tonight. If the ball ends up here what is the rule? Since it’s in a hazard do you have to leave it lie or do you get relief from the path??

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I don't think I'd be hitting the ball of that lie because it would end badly.

So that means you get to drop according to the ROG from the hazard. One of which is one club length no nearer the hole with a one stroke penalty. Which puts you on the cart path from which you have the option to take relief to the NPR no nearer the hole and drop again within 1 club length of that no nearer the hole without penalty.

 

[rollin]

Some comments from a local rules official:

1) The answers which indicated there is no relief are correct. The ball lies within a penalty area. There is no relief for interference from an immovable obstruction in a penalty area. Even if you're standing on the cart path outside the penalty area to play the shot, that does not matter. Where the ball lies is the deciding factor. You may play it as it lies or take relief from the penalty area with a 1-stroke penalty.

2) Once the ball is outside the penalty area, the rules for free relief from an immovable obstruction apply again. If you drop your ball and it ends up on the cart path outside the penalty area, you may proceed with the procedure for obtaining free relief from the cart path. Or, as others have said, you may take "back on a line" relief and go as far back as you wish. It is important to note that "on a line back" is on a line formed by where the ball crossed the boundary of the penalty area and the flagstick, NOT the "line of flight" as the ball entered the penalty area. This is a common misunderstanding of many golfers.

3) The reason for marking being on the cart path is there is no space between the margin of the penalty area and the obstruction. A penalty area needs its margin to be clearly defined. It's not possible to paint across the rocks and have a clearly defined line. So, in this case, the staff chose to mark on the cart path. I agree they could have marked closer to the edge (and it appears they did when it was formerly defined as a yellow penalty area). If the edge of the cart path is always well-defined, the committee could also have chosen to say "the edge of the cart path defines the penalty area." However, that can be confusing for players and result in improper relief and a mess to deal with.

4) You're absolutely right that such a situation, would create a great deal of controversy even though the rules official would have done nothing wrong. Such is the state of golf rules. After years of people complaining about the pace of play, one of the changes for 2019 was 3 minutes to look for a lost ball. Almost everybody applauded that change. What's the first thing I hear during the Open coverage? "Graham McDowell was forced to take a penalty because the rules official timed his 3 minutes. That was ridiculous and wrong that he had to take a penalty. He barely had time to look. Someone needs to apply common sense to the time allowed to search for a lost ball. In short, you just can't win. Graham was correctly penalized and then people were angry he was penalized.

here is the one problem though. You say "where the ball lies is the deciding factor"
Imo I can see the argument that the ball lies on a cart path and should be treated as such. And I also get the other side would say but the ball also lies in a hazard and that's what needs to be followed.

There honestly is just too much wrong with this whole thing. Its simply a bad marking of a hazard and really shouldn't be done like this.

 

[leftshot]

I believe no relief is the correct answer. But I'd love to hear what the course has to say about this situation. Their reaction would be telling. What were they thinking, or perhaps when confronted with the question the light bulb will go off and they'll say, "Whoops!"

 

[wadesworld]

here is the one problem though. You say "where the ball lies is the deciding factor"
Imo I can see the argument that the ball lies on a cart path and should be treated as such. And I also get the other side would say but the ball also lies in a hazard and that's what needs to be followed.

There honestly is just too much wrong with this whole thing. Its simply a bad marking of a hazard and really shouldn't be done like this.

Typically, penalty areas trump other factors. It's not that confusing when you read the rules. For example, the "player's edition" says: "There is no free relief from an abnormal course condition when the abnormal course condition is out of bounds or your ball is in a penalty area." (FYI - An immovable obstruction is part of "abnormal course condition" in the new rules)