Handicap : Honest With Self vs True Tests

Et Tu Brute?;n8881780 said:
From a statistics viewpoint, you might say that our handicaps suffer from being one dimensional. The one dimension is "average" potential scores. A useful second dimension would be how variable our "potential" is from round to round.

I know guys with about your handicap who are, frankly, a little boring to play with. Lots of 80's and 81's, the occasional 78 and a sprinkling of bad rounds like 85-88. Then there are others with the same index who might shoot in the 70's three rounds in a row and then struggle to break 90 for the next month.

The more-variable guys like PapaJohick certainly make for more entertaining rounds and post-round drinks conversation!

haha yep one of my buddies and i joke about it all the time.

Im an 8, hes a 12. we typically play straight up for the most part, but I always give him a hard time about hes the best 12 Ive ever seen. He will consistently stay between 83-89 with an occasional 79/80 but never above 90. He posts rounds as he should as I am our club handicap commissioner on the Grint. He beats me plenty due to my variance, but I tend to show off from time to time with some shots that I hit or the times im firing on all cylinders and shoot 77 or so
 
... I have always hated the handicap system which is basically put into place to stop cheating by putting in some high scores to lower you index before a tourney. Clearly basing your index on all scores would be a much better approach and a much beer indicator of how you play. I play to a + index because the courses near my home (that I enjoy playing and are reasonably priced) are all links style or have wide fairways and little water actually in play for anything but a bad shot. So on my off driving days, missing the fairway is almost the same as driving in the middle. Contrast that with many courses I played in Phoenix last winter that had desert just off the fairway and I am guessing my index would be more like a 5 playing those courses only. I would add going from bent grass greens to bermuda can also be very problematic for an index. I rarely 3 putt but on unfamiliar bermuda in the Orlando area I can have a couple a round playing a course for the first time.
 
My handicap travels very well and I score similarly at most courses, unless potentially a very target based course I’m not familiar with.
 
dduarte85;n8881424 said:
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From the whites I average even par 72, from the blues I tend to shoot around 76-78.

My handicap is at 3.9

When I play a “real” golf course (that’s a mixed bag that people here will give me a ton of flack about) I tend to shoot right around 85. Some of that is because it’s my first time around that course and then just killer lightning fast greens that take me 8 holes to even start to comprehend some kind of pace on them. Those are courses like TPC Boston, Old Sandwich, Boston Golf Club where I’m standing on a 495 yard par 4 tee box and find myself hitting a damn 3 wood into a green all day.



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What exactly do you mean by a "real" golf course here? That just means you're playing the wrong tees at those "real" courses. You don't have to tip it out every time.
 
mpeterson;n8881874 said:
What exactly do you mean by a "real" golf course here? That just means you're playing the wrong tees at those "real" courses. You don't have to tip it out every time.

The handicap system is a flawed system, but IMO it still works well enough. When people post questions like these they're typically the kind of people who try to game it, whether with a vanity cap or sandbag.
 

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Why don't you just play the same course but from all the different sets of tees? That's why they are there. I bet you have different handicaps from each set too.
 
OITW;n8881891 said:
The handicap system is a flawed system, but IMO it still works well enough. When people post questions like these they're typically the kind of people who try to game it, whether with a vanity cap or sandbag.

I guess I shouldnÂ’t post threads, my bad... suppose IÂ’m a vanity handicapper.

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This is proof... thereÂ’s no way 3 or 4 shots differentiate Butterbrook and Vesper, zero chance (blue tees)

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mpeterson;n8881874 said:
What exactly do you mean by a "real" golf course here? That just means you're playing the wrong tees at those "real" courses. You don't have to tip it out every time.

Loaded question but to start... a course that holds a notable event (State Open / AM / USGA event like the old public links etc / any USGA qualifier

There’s like 4 / 5 public courses in MA that fit the bill... Taconic, The Orchards, Crump, Red Tail, Pine Hills.

The rest are too hard to play regarding access.


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dduarte85;n8881952 said:
Loaded question but to start... a course that holds a notable event (State Open / AM / USGA event like the old public links etc / any USGA qualifier

There’s like 4 / 5 public courses in MA that fit the bill... Taconic, The Orchards, Crump, Red Tail, Pine Hills.

The rest are too hard to play regarding access.


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Even the goat tracks still have 18 holes though man. If you want to change the scenery off the tee to mix it up a bit, take a different club off of the tee, or start hitting it like trash so you have no idea where you are on the course haha
 
I was also thinking about course fit after I posted my last post. I play DraftKings every week for the PGA Tour and even the very best players in the world play bad on certain courses. Think about Bubba Watson. He has 4 or 5 courses where his giant lefty fade is a huge advantage and he really scores well on those courses, but there are some other courses that are super narrow for that ball flight and he really struggles on those courses. It doesn't mean his handicap doesn't travel it just means his game doesn't match every course. If you are a draw player and you're playing a course where 13 or 14 holes are dogleg right than it's going to be really tough for you to shoot your cap on that course. Conversely if you play a course with 13 or 14 doglegs to the left you could easily shoot well below your handicap.

I would guess players that are more consistent ball strikers with a straighter ball flight have caps that travel better than players with inconsistent ball striking or a curved flight. I rely on my short game to score so it can take me several holes at a new course to get the chipping and putting down in different grasses.
 
DataDude;n8881963 said:
I was also thinking about course fit after I posted my last post. I play DraftKings every week for the PGA Tour and even the very best players in the world play bad on certain courses. Think about Bubba Watson. He has 4 or 5 courses where his giant lefty fade is a huge advantage and he really scores well on those courses, but there are some other courses that are super narrow for that ball flight and he really struggles on those courses. It doesn't mean his handicap doesn't travel it just means his game doesn't match every course. If you are a draw player and you're playing a course where 13 or 14 holes are dogleg right than it's going to be really tough for you to shoot your cap on that course. Conversely if you play a course with 13 or 14 doglegs to the left you could easily shoot well below your handicap.

I would guess players that are more consistent ball strikers with a straighter ball flight have caps that travel better than players with inconsistent ball striking or a curved flight. I rely on my short game to score so it can take me several holes at a new course to get the chipping and putting down in different grasses.

Yes, Trevino liked to play a fade and this is a primary reason why he often declined his invitation to play the Masters..
 
dduarte85;n8881952 said:
Loaded question but to start... a course that holds a notable event (State Open / AM / USGA event like the old public links etc / any USGA qualifier

There’s like 4 / 5 public courses in MA that fit the bill... Taconic, The Orchards, Crump, Red Tail, Pine Hills.

The rest are too hard to play regarding access.


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You used the term first, so I had to ask. So Stow Acres, which hosted the monday qualifer for the PGA for years doesn't count? George Wright and Devine, which hosted the Mass Am last year? Course #1 at Ponkapoag, which was actually scouted by the USGA as a potential US Open site? Yeah, the conditions aren't private conditions, but the thought that there are 4 or 5 "real courses" in MA that the public can play is frankly ludicrous. Guess most of the state isn't playing "real golf".

This kind of nonsense is why people get the opinion that golf is an elitist sport.
 
I have not played golf in Massachusetts, but have played Rhode Island's Triggs (Providence) and North Kingstown GC. Both of them fine courses which I enjoyed very much.
If a course has 9 or more holes it fits my definition of a "real golf course".. As for prestige, my observation is that lots of Tour stops are selected for political, economic, tourist or other reasons more so than the golf course itself. There are hundreds of awesome golf courses that relatively few people know about.
 
mpeterson;n8882172 said:
You used the term first, so I had to ask. So Stow Acres, which hosted the monday qualifer for the PGA for years doesn't count? George Wright and Devine, which hosted the Mass Am last year? Course #1 at Ponkapoag, which was actually scouted by the USGA as a potential US Open site? Yeah, the conditions aren't private conditions, but the thought that there are 4 or 5 "real courses" in MA that the public can play is frankly ludicrous. Guess most of the state isn't playing "real golf".

This kind of nonsense is why people get the opinion that golf is an elitist sport.

Telling it as it is... this is what happens when people get defensive and don’t face the music. Dude, I’m a working class kid... I’m not part of that elite world but at the end of the day I’m not in denial.

When was the last time you played Stowe?! You mean the temporary greens because they can’t control fungus over a multi year period? Oh ok, yeah... that place is awesome.

George Wright , ok... I’ll give you that. I played there growing up and I’m happy the city relinquished management because government employees couldn’t handle that. First time MassAM went to a public course, players didn’t like it... no range on course! Then the following year back to business at TCC.

Devine, hard pass... come on man.

Ponk! Now you’re losing it... course one, the legend that the USGA actually considered it for an open is one of those stories the old timers talk about but no one has ever been able to actually show it was considered. It sat under water for years and is MAYBE the worst conditioned course in MA. A true shame though because the lay out is a classic Ross.

Yes, most of the state isn’t playing real golf man... and yes, it is a game of the elite if you want to be good. How many working class kids get D1 rides considering those kids have coaches, play under “real” conditions, and travel and play national AJGA tournaments. We all play for fun, we aren’t on TV but don’t kid yourself man... the populist version of golf (while still super fun!) is a different game when you’re kicking it back with buddies and having beers vs actually competing.

Go look at the MassAM qualifying players and their home courses... sure you get a few randos from Fresh Pond and Ponk and GW but it’s a list of people who play at the best courses because if you can shoot a 72 on a “real” course then you’re damn good. Single handicap scores aren’t valid on courses where literally anywhere on the green is safe.

The whole point of this thread is actually a touch self deprecating... I can shoot 72 but I don’t kid myself and act like I can shoot 72 on 12 speed greens with hazards that are actually in play with high rough and steep run offs everywhere.

You can call it nonsense but it’s reality, you either have to accept it or keep on the whole “Bagh, golf has a problem because of THOSE rich guys”

We should just close this thread if we are all going to get defensive because the conversation may venture into offending our everyday experiences regardless of the (sometimes hard) truth.


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dduarte85;n8882264 said:
Go look at the MassAM qualifying players and their home courses... sure you get a few randos from Fresh Pond and Ponk and GW but it’s a list of people who play at the best courses because if you can shoot a 72 on a “real” course then you’re damn good. Single handicap scores aren’t valid on courses where literally anywhere on the green is safe.

The whole point of this thread is actually a touch self deprecating... I can shoot 72 but I don’t kid myself and act like I can shoot 72 on 12 speed greens with hazards that are actually in play with high rough and steep run offs everywhere.

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If you shoot 72, it’s still shooting 72. Yes, some courses give you an easier chance of doing it, but last I checked, there are no pictures on the scorecard. A 72 at St Andrews is still as nice as a 72 at Carnoustie. One may feel better than the other, but it’s still the same score.
 
I'm sorry dduarte85 , I like this conversation about handicaps, but this "real" course stuff is a little silly. A golf course is a golf course. Anyone who can putt can putt whether greens are slow or fast once they dial in. The layout makes the course not the conditioning. Yes a 72 is not the same everywhere, but it is a good score no matter where you shoot it unless you shoot it on the front 9. My advice is to just check the tone of what you're posting. The conversation only went this direction because of your comment.
 
dduarte85;n8882264 said:
Telling it as it is... this is what happens when people get defensive and don�t face the music. Dude, I�m a working class kid... I�m not part of that elite world but at the end of the day I�m not in denial.

When was the last time you played Stowe?! You mean the temporary greens because they can�t control fungus over a multi year period? Oh ok, yeah... that place is awesome.

George Wright , ok... I�ll give you that. I played there growing up and I�m happy the city relinquished management because government employees couldn�t handle that. First time MassAM went to a public course, players didn�t like it... no range on course! Then the following year back to business at TCC.

Devine, hard pass... come on man.

Ponk! Now you�re losing it... course one, the legend that the USGA actually considered it for an open is one of those stories the old timers talk about but no one has ever been able to actually show it was considered. It sat under water for years and is MAYBE the worst conditioned course in MA. A true shame though because the lay out is a classic Ross.

Yes, most of the state isn�t playing real golf man... and yes, it is a game of the elite if you want to be good. How many working class kids get D1 rides considering those kids have coaches, play under �real� conditions, and travel and play national AJGA tournaments. We all play for fun, we aren�t on TV but don�t kid yourself man... the populist version of golf (while still super fun!) is a different game when you�re kicking it back with buddies and having beers vs actually competing.

Go look at the MassAM qualifying players and their home courses... sure you get a few randos from Fresh Pond and Ponk and GW but it�s a list of people who play at the best courses because if you can shoot a 72 on a �real� course then you�re damn good. Single handicap scores aren�t valid on courses where literally anywhere on the green is safe.

The whole point of this thread is actually a touch self deprecating... I can shoot 72 but I don�t kid myself and act like I can shoot 72 on 12 speed greens with hazards that are actually in play with high rough and steep run offs everywhere.

You can call it nonsense but it�s reality, you either have to accept it or keep on the whole �Bagh, golf has a problem because of THOSE rich guys�

We should just close this thread if we are all going to get defensive because the conversation may venture into offending our everyday experiences regardless of the (sometimes hard) truth.


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I don't know any of the courses you're talking about but I feel like I'm getting the gist of what you're communicating, and I disagree.

Golf doesn't need to be this complicated. All a golfer can do is examine the hole/course in front of him and try take as few strokes as possible.

Around here the best players haven't come from the fancy private courses, the PGA Tour courses, or the Canadian Tour courses - they came from a muni with mats on the range and tips out at 6100 (par 70).
 
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Mine travels very well. Mainly since my home course is target golf and if you don’t hit your lines you are totally screwed on some holes(punch shot from the fairway anyone?) My course is not long at 6600 from the tips but distance is not my problem. If I go to a course that is longer but more open I can normally eat it up.


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Alez367;n8882277 said:
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You’’re laughing and enjoying your popcorn cuz your home course is Torrey - oh wait that isn’t a “real”
course lol
 
OITW;n8882287 said:
You’’re laughing and enjoying your popcorn cuz your home course is Torrey - oh wait that isn’t a “real”
course lol

you misquoted the name, It's Torrey Pines South Course. Put some respect on it Alex!
 
The thought that there are "real" golf courses is laughable. A "real" golf course is any course that people enjoy playing, find to be a challenge and can enjoy the game of golf on. This opinion about "real" courses comes off as total elitist. I'm glad you can enjoy the "real" courses that you've been able to play but to state that as fact is ridiculous.
 
KEV;n8882321 said:
The thought that there are "real" golf courses is laughable. A "real" golf course is any course that people enjoy playing, find to be a challenge and can enjoy the game of golf on. This opinion about "real" courses comes off as total elitist. I'm glad you can enjoy the "real" courses that you've been able to play but to state that as fact is ridiculous.

Couldn't agree more, Kev. Well said.
 
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Does a "real" golf course have to be USGA course/slope rated? Because I play on one that is not.

Which, of course means that my handicap will always travel with me, because I have to travel to get it. That said, I play a 9 hole, ~2200 yard par 31 course. I went and played a course back in July with friends. Hadn't played the course in 5 years, and really didn't remember any of it. Yet I shot an 84......with a quad......on a 130 yard par 3. You'd think I wouldn't be capable of transitioning from such a short course with slow greens (were talking sub 6 speeds most of this year), to a normal course.

I learned a long time ago that golf is, among other things, a series of shots. Whether I'm hitting a 6 iron at my home course, or a 6 iron on some other course, you just have to execute the shot.

I feel like my point got lost somewhere in here, but nonetheless, there's my take on this.

As for the OP, my story tells it all. My handicap travels. It's accurate. I was somewhat surprised the quad on a par 3 did not get ESC'd down, but whatever. Hdcp is just a number, much like scores. I personally relish the shots made more than the scores.

~Rock
 
What is a 'real' golf course????? I am worried I haven't been playing 'proper' golf all these years.....

Obviously handicaps are calculated and adjusted differently here in the UK, but mine is accurate and I would say it travels as I am usually within a couple shots of it wherever I play
 
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