Why would us Amateurs play with anything that doesn't maximize forgiveness?

-CRW-;n8883022 said:
He didn't say "only" MB's can be worked. He said he witnessed someone work the ball better with blades versus a previous set of cavity backs.

Once you get past trying to keep the ball in play and moving towards the hole, some of the tech/forgiveness features can be a detriment.

I'm struggling to understand this. I can't think of a single time on the golf course where I thought to myself, "I wish this club was less forgiving" or "Man if there was less tech in this club I could have scored better"
 
I agree with what Dave said above. Ego and it looks cool. I know I've played some clubs in the past that I had no business playing, but I let looks and ego get the best of me.
 
Club has to give you a degree of confidence. I don't get a lot of confidence looking down at something with a large amount of offset and a gigantic top line. A bad shot is a bad shot. Giving up something that feels really solid and provides some level of consistency for a little more forgiveness isn't a worth trade off for me.

There are other factors at play as well. I like the spin that my current CB provides. Less spin and I am carrying the ball further which I don't need. SGI clubs seem to have much wider soles which don't work well for me. Just making a blanket statement that it's all about ego seems short sighted. Besides, the modern players CB isn't all that unforgiving anyways. I would have to severely mishit the ball to make my shot completely unplayable.
 
One of the main reason I like blades (or bladish irons in my Ft Worths) is consistency in distance and spin. Most of the GI irons I've played are just too long with the odd knuckle ball that's even longer. Additionally, the lack of offset tends to make even a shot that is slightly off center end up between me and the stick and not 30 yards to the left.
 
ArmyGolf;n8883033 said:
If an OEM one day makes a GI iron with no offset and that still offers a lot of backspin, I'd at least give it a try. Until then, I'll stick with my smaller irons that pack just enough forgiveness, pass the eye test, and allow me to control my ball.
Current market is saturated with GI and SGI irons that offer high speeds, high launch, and low spin. I just have so little distance consistency every time I try designs like that since I'm already such a low spin player.

Gotcha! The low spin can definitely be a detriment to some, and that goes back to not everyone has the same needs in terms of forgiveness. I'm really just reflecting on my own experiences, with the assumption that there are others like me, who have been playing a less than optimal club for reasons that don't pass the common sense test if the goal is to score well.
 
Jaymo37;n8883053 said:
Gotcha! The low spin can definitely be a detriment to some, and that goes back to not everyone has the same needs in terms of forgiveness. I'm really just reflecting on my own experiences, with the assumption that there are others like me, who have been playing a less than optimal club for reasons that don't pass the common sense test if the goal is to score well.

For sure! I still embrace forgiveness in a lot of ways because I greatly prefer my Apex Pros over the Apex MBs (which look better, spin higher). It's all about each player finding that right club that really brings everything together.
 
I have more fun when I play well and I will use whatever tech that helps me do that, regardless if it is called ugly or pretty or game improvement iron or player's iron. Not everyone hits the ball better with a game improvement iron and it is great there are so many options out there.
 
Jaymo37;n8883038 said:
I'm struggling to understand this. I can't think of a single time on the golf course where I thought to myself, "I wish this club was less forgiving" or "Man if there was less tech in this club I could have scored better"

Obviously, the “tech” you’ve encountered hasn’t been a hindrance to you.

I’m just saying that it’s not the case for everyone. And since the word ego is being thrown around in this thread (it always is), it takes a big ego to assume something is right for everyone.

I have encountered plenty of game improvement clubs or tech that have worsened my scores. Lighter/softer/graphite shafts and I lose a ton of control. Hybrids and big SGI irons do nothing but hook for me. I can also hit the GI and SGI irons crazy far with some inconsistent distance from one shot to the next. Woods are built too upright for me and cause balls that go left and keep going that way - or in some cases, like the Cobra F8, I see crazy hooks. I actually hit straight shots or fades with my current driver. But it’s cut short (flattening the “effective” lie) and it’s set to a flat lie through the adapter.

So you not encountering it doesn’t mean others haven’t as well.
 
Personally, I'm more concerned with the quality of my good shots than the acceptability of my bad shots. If I hit a ball poorly, I really don't care if its 10 yards short or 30. What I do care about is that if I try and hit a ball 150 and I do everything right, it goes 150.
 
personally, i balk at the "ego" answer. why can't someone play whatever they want to play? why is it always assumed that the only reason they have an unforgiving club in their bag is because they think they are better than they really are? i'm sure that is the case with some, but not all.

i think it just comes down to what we like to play. sure, many will tell you why a less forgiving club is better for their game, but i personally feel the underlying reason is always aesthetic and sound/feel preferences.
 
I used to feel the same way, but I have since changed my tune.

I went from Callaway Rogue to Apex 19 irons and my handicap lowered fairly substantially.

The Rogues were considerably more forgiving, but the extreme offset made me have a lot of right to left sidespin on shots. Also, having smaller, less-forgiving irons now really forces me to focus on every shot. With the Rogue irons, I could sorta aim and swing and not got punished too often (but also not throw as many darts as I should have been).
 
Jaymo37;n8882911 said:
.

So I pose the question, knowing that we're all Amateurs here, and that none of us strike every shot pure, why would we not opt for more forgiveness?

I think you are assuming that larger club heads, for example mid or oversize irons are more forgiving. But the reality is that plenty of players may find a traditional size head easier to swing, square at impact.
So , while marketing and, or, computer testing may promote the idea that "bigger is more forgiving", in reality bigger may actually promote mishit shots.
In other words, if player XYZ plays a round of golf with traditional size irons and strikes a dozen quality strike shots, and then plays another round with over sized irons but only has five or six quality strikes, it could be the "more forgiving" iron for him is the traditional size one.
The most sensible solution is for players to try different size iron heads and learn which size head consistently produces the highest quality shots.
 
I feel like there are a lot of reasons to be honest. For example, I am not a great golfer by any means and should probably be playing a more forgiving iron but every time I lay one down behind the ball I hate the way it looks. Instead of inspiring confidence for me, it just looks awkward and weird. I am not saying I use blades because of course I do not but more of a player distance category. I find when I like the way it looks and frames the ball it gives me more confidence and I hit better shots then I would with what might a more forgiving iron but I can't stand looking at it.
 
Jaymo37;n8883008 said:
I would challenge the notion that only MB's can be "worked" in different directions. Working the ball is merely a function of the relationship between the face of the club and the path at which it enters / departs the impact zone. Yes the center of gravity and MOI can impact the amount of spin applied on various strikes, any modern club can be utilized to move the ball in different directions to the extent that would be needed on any kind of regular basis.

Maybe, but regardless if it was the clubs or his swing, he felt the could work the ball more with MBs. The OP asked why someone would not use the most forgiving clubs if they were an amateur. I was just offering a plausible explanation other than because people have egos or want to look stylish on a course. I think the reality is that with MBs you do not work the ball better, you just feel the difference at MOI than with cavity backs. I can tell you having played CBs on long irons and mid irons and MBs for wedges, I can feel a difference. The MBs always feel softer to me. Some people like that feeling so they play those types of clubs.
 
Jaymo37;n8882911 said:
Alright, I totally understand that every golfer plays whatever equipment optimizes their enjoyment of the game, within their own budgetary restrictions.

In thinking about another recent thread asking about enjoying the game while playing poorly. For me, playing well is a huge factor within my enjoyment of the game. I tortured myself for years trying to play clubs that didn't maximize my potential to score well. Despite being a fairly low handicap player, I have learned I definitely benefit from a GI or SGI iron. In playing my combo set of JPX 900's (HM and Forged) I found that I hit the HM irons really well, and struggled at times with the scoring irons. I've recently switched to the Ping G's and with the exception of one terribly hung over and ill prepared round, I've played really well with them and have felt super confident regardless of which Iron I pull out of the bag.

So I pose the question, knowing that we're all Amateurs here, and that none of us strike every shot pure, why would we not opt for more forgiveness?

For the same reason we play golf: we deeply, deeply hate ourselves.
 
Et Tu Brute?;n8882974 said:
Why? Because we're stupid, I guess.

Stupid explains a lot. And I can look around the golf course any day and see plenty of dumb golfers doing stupid stuff (or I can just look in the mirror every morning and see one of the dumbest).

I can appreciate the quality of self-loathing in this post. Well done.
 
We've all played with golfers who use irons that do not suit them, but they are so proud of the fact that they're forged, and "pro" in appearance. Personally I enjoy watching a good golfer use equipment that I could never use. In the long run, I'll stick to my forgiving G25's which I think are very forgiving and pretty in appearance.
 
Jaymo37;n8883008 said:
I would challenge the notion that only MB's can be "worked" in different directions. Working the ball is merely a function of the relationship between the face of the club and the path at which it enters / departs the impact zone. Yes the center of gravity and MOI can impact the amount of spin applied on various strikes, any modern club can be utilized to move the ball in different directions to the extent that would be needed on any kind of regular basis.

Yes, good post, exactly correct.
 
I can only speak for myself, pure recreational amateur. I like what I like. I can also still remember the clubs I used in the 1970s. Everything today by comparison is forgiving.
 
McLovin;n8883205 said:
personally, i balk at the "ego" answer. why can't someone play whatever they want to play? why is it always assumed that the only reason they have an unforgiving club in their bag is because they think they are better than they really are? i'm sure that is the case with some, but not all.

i think it just comes down to what we like to play. sure, many will tell you why a less forgiving club is better for their game, but i personally feel the underlying reason is always aesthetic and sound/feel preferences.

I like this answer, because it describes how I feel about putting blades in this year. I'm a 6.7 at current, far from tour pro, yet there are a few things that appeal to me:

1) Familiarity - I learned to play on blades, they don't feel strange to me in that regard. I wanted a modern set.
2) Aesthetics - shape, feel, etc. are all my taste. I also like and more typically play a forged cavity players irons, SGI or GI just don't suit my eye.
3) Spin / Distance Control- the higher and consistent spin levels (less fliers or "jumpers") as ArmyGolf mentioned is a big thing I've noticed this year after 20 rounds or so. I would say my distance control with Z-Forged is superior to that of the Z745, which was already a good starting point. It's really good.

In my case, I've improved GIR% with blades this year so whether I'm swinging better or its the clubs, I'm not overly concerned with losing shots on my irons. I play golf more for entertainment than all out score. Lots of valid performance based reasons to play blades especially those with higher clubhead speed and fairly consistent striking ability.
 
I have a few thoughts on it (probably not all correct, but how Ive approached it i guess). Forgiveness to me is a semi frivolous term that is thrown around by OEMs. Im not saying there isn't differences between a blade and "sgi" iron or the old persimmon and todays drivers. Im saying, the forgiveness that companies tend to boast about is basically just trade offs in other areas (typically). I'm not a huge fan of so called forgiving irons that give me no feeling on mishits and keep my distances maxed... I would rather a club that may not go as far on mishits, but stay in the general expectations of direction and outcome for the hit given. Thankfully technology has been able to bridge that gap a little and the trade offs aren't nearly as bad as they were about 3 or more years ago (enter the apex pro irons haha).

There's more to it than that obviously, but my quick non technical view of it.
 
I'm firmly in the forgiveness camp. I have a good bag now and will always trend toward the most forgiving club I like to look at going forward. There are always plenty of options in my opinion.
 
I have a very simple definition of "forgiveness" when it comes to irons.

Anywhere from 2-3 to as many as 8-10 times a round I mishit an iron shot that I know instantly was a poor swing. Maybe hit it way out toward the toe, high on the clubface or catch the ground a fraction before the ball. Or all of the above ;-)

Every time one of those shots ends up either on the green or close enough to the green I can putt from the fringe...that's forgiveness. I can count them up, if I like.

Something like a Ping G or JPX 900 Hot Metal will "forgive" a couple of those swings in a typical round. Call it 1/4 to 1/3 of the time.

The JPX 850 Forged I briefly tried last year might "forgive" one of those per round, if that. Call it 10-20% forgiveness.

The Titleist DCI's I played back in the day might "forgive" one shot like that in twenty, if that. A shot toed or scuffed or caught steeply high on the face was going to mean a wedge shot the vast majority of the time.

It's hard for me to imagine getting enough benefit from the "feel" or visuals or "workability" of a less forgiving iron to offset a couple extra putts instead of chips/pitches/bunker shots per round. I am just soooooo much better putting from 40 feet in the fringe than I am chipping from 20 yards in the rough.
 
personally, the cf16s i put back into play are about far on the gi spectrum as i am going. I naturally hit a a high ball (although worker on flattening the swing has helped and is helping). hand in hand with forgiveness seems to come the club architecture/design for launch. I do not need launch therfore no sgi clubs for me. The perfect iron would be the size of my adams cmb with the next level of toe forgiveness
 
I am in an ultra forgiving set of irons. I'm shopping around, and the next step up is where I am going, to firgiving irons (m5 in the lead right now). I hit them further and with the same dispersion. I shopped some player irons, and hit them even further, with better dispersion, (on good shots), but with a lot more mis hits that went extremely poorly, so not headed there yet.
 
Back
Top