Does Drive for Show and Putt for Dough really hold true today?

joebute;n8883639 said:
Brooks and DJ have won 3 of the past 4 US Opens, and this year's US Open was won by Gary Woodland - another bomber who just moved to 126th in strokes gained putting. The best putter in the game, Denny McCarthy, had his best finish of the year (T7) at the Sanderson Farms championship. I think I'll stick to working on my tee to green game.

Ok both are streaky players, when their flat stick is silent they are not in contention still bombing out there. Rory as well. But if you looks at the most constant two golfers of my generation Tiger and Phil, they made their bones on the greens. Jim Furyk is another example. You putt twice as much as you drive off the tee and really good golfers do not hit driver off the tee every time they can. Statistically, putting is more important than driving, it’s just math baby.


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DG_1234;n8884131 said:
This is why driver is ridiculously overrated. Playing consistently straight tee shots is a big help to lower scoring, which means a lot of players would score lower if they left driver at home.

I don’t disagree with this statement at all, but you also have to have the distance to play a lower club like a 3 wood or 3+ wood.

Of course if the difference is being in bounds vs out then yea it will be much smarter to leave the driver in the bag. In my game I am usually better with my driver then 3 wood via the forgiveness of a driver vs the smaller 3 wood.


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FreddieMac;n8884162 said:
Statistically, putting is more important than driving, it’s just math baby.

Your math is wrong. It’s not about the number of strokes you take with each club. It’s the weight applied to each. For example, from a strokes gained perspective one long, accurate drive is worth 2-3 solid putts.

It is just math, and I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but strokes gained provides the correct answer.
 
DG_1234;n8884138 said:
You can't remember it because it never happened.
Nobody has ever scored well putting poorly.
Millions of people have driven it well all day long but do not shoot low scores.

I have to disagree with this statement. I have had many rounds were I putted fantastic and still hit my worse rounds due to my poor placement off the tee and not hitting long enough with my other clubs.


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-CRW-;n8884161 said:
The same goes for poor driving. No amount of 1 putts will save a round full of OB drives and penalty strokes off the tee.

.

To shoot lower scores, this is why relatively few players should swing driver more than 3 or 4 times per round, if at all.
 
fuffle master;n8884171 said:
I have to disagree with this statement. I have had many rounds were I putted fantastic and still hit my worse rounds due to my poor placement off the tee and not hitting long enough with my other clubs.


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Leave the driver at home, problem solved.
 
I've done some stupid and poorly executed things both on the tee and on the green.

I've only taken stroke penalties off the tee.

A bad putt followed by a great putt can be par. An OB drive followed by a great drive, last time I checked, was lying three.....

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DG_1234;n8884177 said:
Leave the driver at home, problem solved.

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This year I've driven the ball further than I have probably since high school yet I've shot the highest scores since that same time. The long drives are awesome but I'm also losing balls and adding penalty strokes at a stupid rate. I'll take the shorter drives and keeping it in play these days.
 
-CRW-;n8884170 said:
Your math is wrong. It’s not about the number of strokes you take with each club. It’s the weight applied to each. For example, from a strokes gained perspective one long, accurate drive is worth 2-3 solid putts.

It is just math, and I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but strokes gained provides the correct answer.


If you are talking weighted average, what multiplier are you using to say a drive has more weight?

It is about the strokes, the entire game is about the strokes. A long straight drive not worth 2 or 3 solid putts, because you cannot typically put the ball in the hole with a driver. Again more than half of all strokes take place within 100 yards of the green and the majority of those are putts.

What would you rather have an entire round of fairways hit with driver or an entire round of one putts?


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I’ll go with Harvey Penick on this one:

In Harvey Penick’s Little Red Book: Lessons and Teachings from a Lifetime in Golf, Harvey Penick said the three most important clubs, in order, are putter, driver and wedge. Penick also noted that Ben Hogan was in agreement, except on order. Hogan said driver, putter, wedge.

Penick had sound logic for the order of his three most important clubs. The driver is used about 14 times during a full round of golf. On the other hand, there are approximately 24 putts within makeable distance (that aren’t gimmes) in a round. A four-foot putt counts as one stroke. So does a 250-yard drive. Penick said, “ut the putt may be much more significant to your score.”

Penick admitted that hitting the driver is “very important” psychologically. However, he also said “nothing is more important psychologically than knocking putts into the hole.” And, he added, “it devastates your opponent.”
 
FreddieMac;n8884382 said:
If you are talking weighted average, what multiplier are you using to say a drive has more weight?

It is about the strokes, the entire game is about the strokes. A long straight drive not worth 2 or 3 solid putts, because you cannot typically put the ball in the hole with a driver. Again more than half of all strokes take place within 100 yards of the green and the majority of those are putts.

Again, strokes gained. I posted the information and a link earlier in this thread. It’s really simple, top drivers are the top earners on tour. The top putters are not.
 
FreddieMac;n8884382 said:
If you are talking weighted average, what multiplier are you using to say a drive has more weight?

It is about the strokes, the entire game is about the strokes. A long straight drive not worth 2 or 3 solid putts, because you cannot typically put the ball in the hole with a driver. Again more than half of all strokes take place within 100 yards of the green and the majority of those are putts.

What would you rather have an entire round of fairways hit with driver or an entire round of one putts?


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This is like saying 3 foot putts and in matter on the PGA tour. They might hit plenty but they really don't matter at all.

And the weighting in strokes gained is expected score from that distance and lie.
 
tahoebum;n8884392 said:
I’ll go with Harvey Penick on this one:

In Harvey Penick’s Little Red Book: Lessons and Teachings from a Lifetime in Golf, Harvey Penick said the three most important clubs, in order, are putter, driver and wedge. Penick also noted that Ben Hogan was in agreement, except on order. Hogan said driver, putter, wedge.

Penick had sound logic for the order of his three most important clubs. The driver is used about 14 times during a full round of golf. On the other hand, there are approximately 24 putts within makeable distance (that aren’t gimmes) in a round. A four-foot putt counts as one stroke. So does a 250-yard drive. Penick said, “ut the putt may be much more significant to your score.”

Penick admitted that hitting the driver is “very important” psychologically. However, he also said “nothing is more important psychologically than knocking putts into the hole.” And, he added, “it devastates your opponent.”


Good points.

Now, Mark Broadie, an economics professor at Columbia University is quoted and has shown the data to say “You drive for show and putt for dough,” is wrong.

I believe it was Jack Nicklaus saying “A good drive is a great start to a par, maybe a birdie. A bad drive is a great start to a bogey or worse. No amount of great putting can help someone who struggles with GIR's”


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A 347 yard drive and a 3 foot putt hold the same value in golf. 1 stroke.



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FreddieMac;n8884382 said:
What would you rather have an entire round of fairways hit with driver or an entire round of one putts?


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Exactly !
 
fuffle master;n8884480 said:
Good points.

Now, Mark Broadie, an economics professor at Columbia University is quoted and has shown the data to say “You drive for show and putt for dough,” is wrong.

I believe it was Jack Nicklaus saying “A good drive is a great start to a par, maybe a birdie. A bad drive is a great start to a bogey or worse. No amount of great putting can help someone who struggles with GIR's”


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Is this a book or academic paper he wrote?


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FreddieMac;n8884487 said:
Is this a book or academic paper he wrote?


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In his 2014 book, “Every Shot Counts.” One of the most talked-about points Broadie made using strokes gained statistics was that putting is over-rated and that the old cliché. “You drive for show and putt for dough,” is wrong.


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-CRW-;n8883573 said:
Strokes gained stats have confirmed that it's the long driver over the putter.



- https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/15th-club-golf-myths/

These threads pop up every now and then and there are always guys that say putter based on faulty logic. But the stats say it's Drive for Dough and Putt for Show.

my issue with this is that it’s skewed so heavily toward a couple guys who are good in so many parts of the game. there are no great drivers who suck at putting making that much money. but there are shorter hitters who are great putters who keep their cards and make serious bank.


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fuffle master;n8884495 said:
In his 2014 book, “Every Shot Counts.” One of the most talked-about points Broadie made using strokes gained statistics was that putting is over-rated and that the old cliché. “You drive for show and putt for dough,” is wrong.


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Cool, I will read it. I like to read opposition literature! :)


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and another thing. the annals of major champions are rife with below average guys who kept the big numbers off the card but made a crap ton of putts. they didn’t all of a sudden find 20 extra yards off the tee that week; more like they found 20+ extra feet of putts made per day.


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FreddieMac;n8884483 said:
A 347 yard drive and a 3 foot putt hold the same value in golf. 1 stroke.



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But there is no separation value. Hence not at all important in the elite game. You don't gain any strokes on the putt but a bunch on the drive. 1st place on tour in 3 foot putts is 100% for the year but 150th is like 99.5 %
 
As others have said, the two are not mutually exclusive. My best rounds are usually when I am driving it well and putting well. However, I have cobbled together good rounds when I have not hit fairways, but have putted lights out. One 9 holes round a few years ago, I hit only one green due to poor driving, but had ten putts and shot 37, hence the username “Tenputt.” So, I don’t want to pick one or the other, but I guess if I have to, I’ll pick putting.
 
DG_1234;n8884131 said:
This is why driver is ridiculously overrated. Playing consistently straight tee shots is a big help to lower scoring, which means a lot of players would score lower if they left driver at home.

and yet a lot of people would be no more/less efficient with 3w or even 5w off a tee box. But you are now talking ability issues and managing ones game. This is not reflective of which area of play is any more or less important. It would be very important and beneficial to scoring if said (driver struggling) player become better with it. As a matter of fact due to thier deficiency with driver it can be argued becomes most important for them to try and repair that. This way thier approach shots would be from closer in by probably a couple of club lengths. Thats huge advantage for anyone.

As I stand on tee on many doglegs i dont at all always use driver. It depends on hole length and layout. But many mid and shorter legs are not driver friendly for me. Reason being is if I hit my driver well but dont cut the corner or turn it , I can end up flying through it and into trouble. So I often use a 3w or 5w or depending on winds, tee placements, and layout even a 4 hyb. That way if dont hit those where I need to i am still in play (most the times) and not in troubles. But if i had consistent good control of driver to place it where needed you bet your butt that I would use it. In fact on those rarer days Ive got my driver mojo working really well I do and it pays to do it. But usually not the case so most times I dont.
 
fuffle master;n8884480 said:
Good points.

Now, Mark Broadie, an economics professor at Columbia University is quoted and has shown the data to say “You drive for show and putt for dough,” is wrong.

I believe it was Jack Nicklaus saying “A good drive is a great start to a par, maybe a birdie. A bad drive is a great start to a bogey or worse. No amount of great putting can help someone who struggles with GIR's”


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I’d have no problem agreeing with Hogan that it’s Driver, putter, wedge in that order. Distance does equal potential in golf as the average proximity to the hole for a PGA tour pro is 50+ feet from the hole from 200 yards. The PGA tour leader has an average proximity of 33 feet and nobody not named Spieth makes many 33 footers.

You can be a scratch golfer by being a great ball striker without putting very well as I know first hand. I’ve been averaging 34 putts per round and 14.6 GIR these last 15 rounds and my index is 1.2 and trending down. Yesterday I shot one over with three 3 putts. For me a 260+ yard straight tee shot has always been easy and 4-8 foot putts have been difficult.
 
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