Does Drive for Show and Putt for Dough really hold true today?

[PatsFan]

I'll take Lights out Putting. Doesn't matter if you can reach a Par 5 in 2 if your going to 3 or 4 jack every time.
Just ask Rgoodsell!

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I’ve never hit a 3 foot putt OB in my life. Much less two 3 foot putts OB on the same hole.

So please ‘splain to me how a missed short putt “counts” the same as a poor drive?

 

[rollin]

I’ve never hit a 3 foot putt OB in my life. Much less two 3 foot putts OB on the same hole.

So please ‘splain to me how a missed short putt “counts” the same as a poor drive?

Youd be correct.
Hitting oob or lost in woods or weeds. Those are not 1 but are actually 2 strokes now hitting 3 off the tee. How about losing a stroke hitting water from the tee. How about not losing a ball but simply having to use a stroke to recover out from under a tree canopy cause you hit it too far off the layout and into the trees between holes. How about toping one or poping one up or a wormburner all of which may only travel but 70 yrds (or whatever). many many people lose very many strokes from poor tee play.

You can be the best putter but when your putting for double the damage is already done. Certainly you can now prevent the triple via the putting which we need to do also.

The whole ideology (IMO) as for anything being more important than anything else is flawed. Everything counts the same everywhere anytime we blow it and cost ourselves a stroke. Imo there is no such thing as anything being more important. Its all for the dough from tee till holed.

 

[Sox_Fan]

Putting can make up for a lot of ball striking mishaps. A long drive down the middle does you no good if you can't make the putt.

 

[rollin]

Putting can make up for a lot of ball striking mishaps. A long drive down the middle does you no good if you can't make the putt.

No it cant.
You see, making the putt doesnt make the extra recovery stroke (or 2 stroke penalty) due to a poor drives disappear. There is no such thing as making up for a lost extra required stroke/s from anywhere. They already exist and dont change just because we make a putt. Plus that long drive down the middle also puts you in a better place (sets you up for) for a better chance at hitting the green via the shorter approach.

Miss the putt after a long middle drive and well hit approach is the same missed putt after a penal drive , recovery shot , then approach. Making or missing the putts is the same affect whether its for bird, par, bogey, or triple. Its either holed or its another added stroke. Doesnt matter what happened before. Making it doesnt make up for anything. Everything else still exists, it simply just ends or continues the hole. Thats the only thing it does regardless what we did prior.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

The only way to truly “make up” for a terrible shot would be like playing the ball out of the water and getting it on the green or hitting a miracle shot from deep into the woods, 180 yards and onto the green.


As friend rollin says, making a long putt is just making a long putt. Good stroke but the stroke and distance penalty you earned off tee doesn’t go away just because you sunk a 40-footer a few minutes later when you finally got to the green!

 

[DG_1234]

and another thing. the annals of major champions are rife with below average guys who kept the big numbers off the card but made a crap ton of putts. they didn’t all of a sudden find 20 extra yards off the tee that week; more like they found 20+ extra feet of putts made per day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

TELL IT !

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Anyone who putts lights out and wins a major championship played very, very, very well from tee to green that week. Just look at the guys who missed the cut and ask yourself how many feet of putts they'd have needed to make to win the tournament instead of slamming the trunk on Friday.

The vast majority of professional tournaments boil down to a short list of players who are both playing well tee to green and putting well. It does happen but is very rare for a guy in the bottom half of the field tee to green winning with a hot putter. Or vice versa for a guy in the bottom half of the field in putting to win by overpowering everyone off the tee.

You mostly have to be very, very good at both to win a major. Among the guys very, very good at both (maybe 12-15 guys out of a field of 150+) then yes, a hot putting streak can put one of them past the wire. Doesn't mean their tee to green game was unimportant.

 

[FreddieMac]

We are talking two different games. For the pros, short game and putting is where they make their money. Very simple, when BK and DJ are putting well they win, when they do not they don't.

For amateurs not playing PGA courses from the tips, ball striking and help lower scores and so can tee shots. But it still comes down to me being able to hit shorter, more lofted clubs into the greens and making putts. That guy that talks about Phil's short game is looking at Phil in his mid-forties. Phil in his prime when he was playing with that blade putter was deadly. Putting, short game and being able to scramble is why Phil Michelson is in the hall of fame, not because he was accurate off the tee.

 

[rollin]

Again we are talking about pros (which is flawed analogy) because there is a given great efficiency (with only minor variance) that already exists between players in getting from tee to green. Anyone who doesnt cant compete with the rest to begin with. And also you cant look at any given tournament or given round to determine what is most important. The question can only apply to each persons game vs how well he plays his game and not who won or lost any given round. The importance of everything any of us do from tee till holed is (IMO) of equal value. It all counts. Strokes are strokes regardless. and the better we can do all of it , the better scoring players we are for doing so.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I would estimate (without going back and doing the calculations) that my 95th percentile good putting days are about 7-8 strokes better than my 95th percentile worst putting days. Which is a huge variance but hey, I'm a 17 hcp and 17 hcp golfers vary a lot from day to day.

But it's not all that unusual to have rounds where I've had an OB, a lost ball and had to chip out of the woods three times by the end of the front nine. That's seven strokes right there just with the driver. Those also tend to be the rounds where I hit a few iron shots into trouble as well.

A couple times over the years I've asked about working on putting when taking lessons from my teaching-pro buddy. He says I generally put a good roll on the and most just need to make sure I'm set up the same every time and be certain of my aim. There's really nothing I could do putting-practice-wise to get much better on my good days, although I could stand to improve my bad rounds by a couple strokes.

But on the full swing I've gotten in such bad shape a few times over the years that a couple lessons and just a handful of practice sessions gets me back on track and saves me several strokes each on my driving and my approach game. For me, I know where the low-hanging fruit is scoring-wise. It's swinging well enough to keep the ball between the tree lines off the tee. If I can hit 9-10 fairways with zero penalties or chip-outs I'll score well on even a mediocre putting day. If I lose four balls off the tee and hit recovery shots all day I can't putt well enough to break 90 if my life depended on it.

 

[rollin]

We are talking two different games. For the pros, short game and putting is where they make their money. Very simple, when BK and DJ are putting well they win, when they do not they don't.

For amateurs not playing PGA courses from the tips, ball striking and help lower scores and so can tee shots. But it still comes down to me being able to hit shorter, more lofted clubs into the greens and making putts. That guy that talks about Phil's short game is looking at Phil in his mid-forties. Phil in his prime when he was playing with that blade putter was deadly. Putting, short game and being able to scramble is why Phil Michelson is in the hall of fame, not because he was accurate off the tee.

But what's being failed to make note of is this. Phil not only wouldnt be in the HOF but not even ever sat atop the tour pros if he wasnt getting from tee to green efficiently enough in the first place. If he never (via his tee and iron appraoch play) hit enough greens nor was close enough on the ones he missed he would never been a tour pro to begin with. In order to even be considered for playing in that company one has to be very efficient from tee to green. Anything less and Phil would been just another good amateur out among us.

We just cannot use tour pros as examples to suggest whats most important because its a given that they are all already great at getting from tees to green. Anyone who isnt simply is not a tour pro. the math just wont work. They'd never be able to compete against their peers.

Honestly, if Phil were hypothetically to not even play poor from tee to green but simply just miss most greens he wouldnt compete atop anything much at all regardless how well he putts. What is good is putting at that level when its for par and bogey on most holes? thats not going to earn anyone a living playing golf.

This is all where the disconnect is when using tour pros to prove any point. they are all playing with a given as for getting from tee to green long before they even have to putt.

 

[fuffle master]

I wonder for those like myself who track their data and or use Arccos, how does the statistics show on your dashboard?

For me being a 21 handicap, I am way better at putting. Now some may have to do with chipping to hole many times. Looking at my stats it’s my driving and off the tee that keeps my scores higher

I would love to hear from someone that their dashboard shows the opposite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wubears71]

I wonder for those like myself who track their data and or use Arccos, how does the statistics show on your dashboard?

For me being a 21 handicap, I am way better at putting. Now some may have to do with chipping to hole many times. Looking at my stats it’s my driving and off the tee that keeps my scores higher

I would love to hear from someone that their dashboard shows the opposite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here I am - driving and putting are very similar and can flip flop from time-to-time.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I wonder for those like myself who track their data and or use Arccos, how does the statistics show on your dashboard?

For me being a 21 handicap, I am way better at putting. Now some may have to do with chipping to hole many times. Looking at my stats it’s my driving and off the tee that keeps my scores higher

I would love to hear from someone that their dashboard shows the opposite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When I used Arccos my summary looked similar. More like 19 on the first two and about 5 on putting (16 overall).

 

[rollin]

fwiw all parts of ones game is only relative to the others. So i putt pretty well but that only relative to the more problematic parts of my game. When i am better at those other things then my putting seems to be not quite as so well anymore. Or at least doesnt look quite as well even if its the same. bottom line is that its one the more consistent parts of my play but i struggle too much with ball striking from tees and more. When i dont its then that i shoot my better rounds.

 

[FreddieMac]

I wonder for those like myself who track their data and or use Arccos, how does the statistics show on your dashboard?

For me being a 21 handicap, I am way better at putting. Now some may have to do with chipping to hole many times. Looking at my stats it’s my driving and off the tee that keeps my scores higher

I would love to hear from someone that their dashboard shows the opposite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Curious how to read the number, does this mean that 24.8 % of your handicap is caused by driving? 3.3% of your handicap is caused by putting?

 

[AndyL0711]

chicks dig the LONG BALL....

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

50% of the game is played with 100 yards and most of that is putting. Yep, putting is still much more important than hitting it long. BK and DJ where monsters tee to green in the US Open this year but could not putt for crap. That is why they lost.

20% of the game is tap-in putts. It's hard to be enough better or worse than the next guy at making putts from 10 inches to matter much.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Curious how to read the number, does this mean that 24.8 % of your handicap is caused by driving? 3.3% of your handicap is caused by putting?

It means that Arccos estimates he drives it and hits approaches like about like expected for a 25 hcp, has a short game like a typical 15 hcp and putts like an average 3 hcp.


The theory is, any facet of your game where the "handicap" is worse than overall is something you ought to work more on. Or something like that.

My actual Arccos numbers were 15 overall then 22 for driving and approach (so those things tended to increase my handicap, on a relative basis) then 14 and 10 for chipping and sand (neither helping or hurting much) and around 5 for putting (so my putting was keeping my handicap from being even higher than the 15 it was overall).

 

[fuffle master]

Curious how to read the number, does this mean that 24.8 % of your handicap is caused by driving? 3.3% of your handicap is caused by putting?

That is not how it’s been described to me.

The Arccos software, I believe, is using a formula to calculate your handicap via strokes gained for each section: drive, approach, chipping, sand, and putting. It is not a percentage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PapaJohick]

I mean kinda? but realistically, there has been so much as of late that driving is how you certainly can improve your game. My game is living proof of that. When I hit fairways (or at least keep the ball manageable), I will threaten a sub 80 round almost every time, but if I am hitting into spots that I can't truly advance the ball? Then im struggling to break 90 some days. My putting is decent to better than average, and it certainly saves me from higher scores, but it definitely is not the reason for my low ones.

 

[FreddieMac]

It means that Arccos estimates he drives it and hits approaches like about like expected for a 25 hcp, has a short game like a typical 15 hcp and putts like an average 3 hcp.


The theory is, any facet of your game where the "handicap" is worse than overall is something you ought to work more on. Or something like that.

My actual Arccos numbers were 15 overall then 22 for driving and approach (so those things tended to increase my handicap, on a relative basis) then 14 and 10 for chipping and sand (neither helping or hurting much) and around 5 for putting (so my putting was keeping my handicap from being even higher than the 15 it was overall).

Ok, gotcha. That is interesting way to look at it.

 

[leapin llama]

I would prefer being a long driver than a better putter. sometimes you can luck into a couple putts. you can't luck outdriving your opponent every hole.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I would prefer being a long driver than a better putter. sometimes you can luck into a couple putts. you can't luck outdriving your opponent every hole.

And I'm certainly never going to luck into making a 100mph swing!