Does Drive for Show and Putt for Dough really hold true today?

[rollin]

Seems that putting represents about 50% of your golf score. I say “putt for dough.”

well, you then wouldn't be putting for anything because 50% is still missing.

 

[rollin]

In my round last weekend, I hit a 92 with with 35 putts. So, 38% of my shots were putting for a 1.94 average putts per hole.

You could argue that if I hit a few more one putts maybe my score would have been 2-4 strokes better. ThatÂ’s true. However, I had 11 bad hits off the tee. This is counting the par 3s where I was poor off the tee on 3 out of 4. If I just were to count drives then 8 were poorly hit.

This lead to only 2/18 GIRs.

If I hit just half of those shots better, I probably give myself a chance to score 4-6 strokes better putting the exact same. I would have less chipping shots and one less penalty.


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Is there really a correct answer here? I think it's extremely dependant on the individual. I have a buddy who can drive the ball 300+ yards and hits greens but he often has rounds with over 40 putts where I may have had 32 putting from the same spots. That's a killer.

On the flip side he's had rounds where he putted well but sprayed driver all over and it cost him strokes. Sure he only had 31 putts but he had penalty strokes.

Either way he lost several strokes that killed him but it came in two different ways which is why I say there is no answer.

This whole entire notion....whether it be putting or chipping/short pitching or all 3 combined being the most important thing comes from IMO 2 places.
The first is that there are indeed many amateurs who can hit the ball somewhat ok but have almost zero short game. That is a pretty dominant negative thing out among many the masses.
The other comes from and ideology all based on pros. Whether its pros themselves, or pro instructors, or simply just about anyone highly regarded in or around pro golf. But its a flawed ideology because its all 100% based on what they see from pro golf. And what they/we see from pro golf is that we are witnessing players who are all in the same company (give or take just a little) as for getting themselves from tees to greens and they do it extremely efficiently. That's the only reason and place where the "putt for dough" or the "short game and putting is most important" ideologies make any sense.

But it simply just doesn't apply to most amateurs. In the world of most us masses out there everything we do holds the same importance. And even in their world everything else is just as important too. Its just that the other things are not problematic for them like they are for so many us and instead are a given. But that doesn't make any of it less important to them. If any the other things was problematic they wouldn't be competing professionally cause they couldn't be unless getting from tees to greens is done at the efficiency in which they do it. That stuff is every bit as important, and if it weren't they wouldn't be pros regardless how great any them played short and putted.

The "whats most important" ideology just cant at all apply with a brush stroke to all amateurs. The most important things to any avid amateur player of the game is whatever parts of his/her game that is in need of most repair and where they do the most damage to themselves. There really is no such thing as any book written dictated most important part. That's a farse imo and based on players who are not even on the same planet as most amateurs. You got no short game and its costly? guess what? you need to get one. You got no iron striking game and its costly? guess what? you need to get one. You got no tee game and its costly? Guess what? you need to get one. Important? All of it the same. No such thing as any other way to put it.

 

[OnePuttLarry]

well, you then wouldn't be putting for anything because 50% is still missing.

Driving doesn't’’ represent the other 50%.

 

[OnePuttLarry]

Just make sure, no more than 2 putts per green!!!

 

[goalie]

I think that the worse your tee-to-green game is, the less this saying is true.

My buddy at golf league is hitting at least 3-4 OB each week lately. He still would have had a higher gross than my score if he one-putted all none holes last Thursday..

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[OnePuttLarry]

Ask Rory & Brooks, drive for show or putt for dough. Gotta be “Putt for Dough!

 

[fuffle master]

Ask Rory & Brooks, drive for show or putt for dough. Gotta be “Putt for Dough!

I am guessing this was sarcastic. Rory won 15 million this weekend because of his off the tee scoring today. Same reason Brooks crashed.

If you were joking, I am not the quickest at picking up those things. Sheldon Cooper and I have one thing in common. 😆

You Drive for Dough in the PGA


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[fuffle master]

I just saw this on Twitter. I would say this gives a strong bias for PGA wins to be more about off the tee

Rory McIlroy's 2018-19 season

19 starts
3 wins
14 top 10s
16 top 25s
1st in strokes gained off the tee
1st in strokes gained tee-to-green


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[DG_1234]

I am guessing this was sarcastic. Rory won 15 million this weekend because of his off the tee scoring today. Same reason Brooks crashed.

If you were joking, I am not the quickest at picking up those things. Sheldon Cooper and I have one thing in common. 😆

You Drive for Dough in the PGA


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The tournament I watched today revealed Rory making putts while Koepka missed putts.
I promise you if you ask any Tour player what he/she would like to most improve about his/her game, the answer will be "make more putts".

 

[rollin]

The tournament I watched today revealed Rory making putts while Koepka missed putts.
I promise you if you ask any Tour player what he/she would like to most improve about his/her game, the answer will be "make more putts".

Of course they will. And here yet again we continually talk of players who are already extremely efficient at getting from tee to green in the first place. Just talk to any player who is not doing that and you know who you will be talking to? A player who is not a tour pro.

Does anyone watch any tournament and see any player "continually" sitting even just 3 (never even mind more than that) strokes and only then be chipping/pitching on and only then finally be putting on a whole bunch of par4's? I can tell you one thing for certain......you wont be watching a winner of anything with all those bogeys even with lights out putting. This is why we cant apply the ideology to anyone but the pros. It just doesnt work well everywhere else. Except only for those amateurs who also posses a real consistent tee to green game. But that is not at all most people and not even close to most people.

 

[ntanygd760]

Why are we still talking about putting in terms of total putts? That means nothing. Use strokes gained or at least talk about putts outside 3 feet, 3-10 and 10+

 

[fuffle master]

Why are we still talking about putting in terms of total putts? That means nothing. Use strokes gained or at least talk about putts outside 3 feet, 3-10 and 10+

I was wondering about the same thing and came across these two charts below on probabilities of distance and putting.

So, looking at this chart a couple things stand out to me.

1. If you take the difference of a tour pro vs a 90s score in probability of one putting the difference is not as large as it seems. I know you are say are you kidding me what are you talking about.

Well, letÂ’s look at 5 foot putts and 10 foot putts. Pros will make, on average, 77% (3 out of 4) one putts. While a 90 scorer will make 50% (2 out of 4) That is only a difference of ONE stroke. Increase that to 10 times and we are only talking about 2-3 strokes.

Going to 10 feet and the tour player still only gains the same 2 strokes, on average.

2. If you look at the probability of three putting again the difference is not crazy different. A pro will 3 putt from 20 feet, on average, 2% of the time. While a 90 scorer will three putt only 8% of the time. Less than one out of ten for each.

Increase the distance to 40 feet, and the tour pro will three putt 10% versus the 90s scorer at 30%. Again that is only 2 strokes of gain on average.

Now, I am not combining the two charts for a true probability, but these two charts do clearly show how putting is not crazy different from a tour pro to a 90s scorer.

The largest difference has to be off the tee, approach, and chipping. That still leads to a probable conclusion of off the tee being more important than putting.


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[ntanygd760]

That is off for 3 foot putts. 10 guys were 100% this year and 99.5% was 175th or so. Haven't looked at the rest. I am not sure if that improved due to fixing anything in your putting line rule change. Everything else you wrote is the correct way to think about it imo.

 

[-CRW-]

Why are we still talking about putting in terms of total putts? That means nothing. Use strokes gained or at least talk about putts outside 3 feet, 3-10 and 10+

I think the concept is completely over the head of a few posters here.

 

[JonMA1]

While understanding the Strokes Gained Methodology might help win internet arguments, it's not entirely necessary when it comes to knowing our weaknesses and planning our improvements. When I'm failing at reading greens, failing at lag putting, and missing far too many 3' putts with little break, there's a problem. I don't need to know PGA stats. I don't even need to know other amateur's stats. I've tracked my game the last few years because it's kind of cool looking over a round when I get home. Sometimes there are minor surprises that show up in this data, but most of it supports what I see when I play.

I play against people at various levels. Most of the folks at my level may miss more approach shots, but make more putts. So I've worked hard to improve that skill. Feeling the slope on greens with my feet and purchasing a different putter seemed to help the most. While my putting is still a weakness, it's not ridiculously bad as it was prior to 2018.

When I play alongside decent players (10-15 HC), more than anything else, I see how much better they are at controlling the driver and controlling spin/roll on chips and pitches. So those are the areas I'm trying to work on this year (I'm failing so far, but that's not the point).

I don't need old, overused expressions like drive for show, putt for dough, nor do I need the latest/greatest methodology and corresponding graph to recognize why I suck at this game. I just need to work on my weaknesses - most of which are pretty obvious by observing what's happening on the course.

 

[ntanygd760]

Nothing wrong with working on what you are the worst at. Even easier when that one thing is something you can practice more places then just the golf course.

I keep going back to strokes gained because it is a base to measure something meaningful. Saying 30 putts a round is 45% of strokes so must be the most important is silly. You need to take away the short ones and strokes gained gives a way to say all that in 1 number.

 

[JonMA1]

Nothing wrong with working on what you are the worst at. Even easier when that one thing is something you can practice more places then just the golf course.

I keep going back to strokes gained because it is a base to measure something meaningful. Saying 30 putts a round is 45% of strokes so must be the most important is silly. You need to take away the short ones and strokes gained gives a way to say all that in 1 number.

I get that. So much is dependent on what's going on before one is on the green. Are they putting from 3' via an approach shot or via a chip, for example.

And please understand, I am a believer in using data to show what's really going on and subsequently improve a process - so long as the right data is being collected and the information is complete and accurate. I think the damage comes in how some folks spin or at least put too much emphasis on the data as though it applies to every individual. (I don't believe that's happening in this discussion.)

I apologize for repeating myself on this. I should probably stop typing and try to learn something instead.

 

[rollin]

I get that. So much is dependent on what's going on before one is on the green. Are they putting from 3' via an approach shot or via a chip, for example.

And please understand, I am a believer in using data to show what's really going on and subsequently improve a process - so long as the right data is being collected and the information is complete and accurate. I think the damage comes in how some folks spin or at least put too much emphasis on the data as though it applies to every individual. (I don't believe that's happening in this discussion.)

I apologize for repeating myself on this. I should probably stop typing and try to learn something instead.

I dont think you need to apologize to anyone for anything here. Your just stating what you believe makes good sense and i agree. And fwiw , what you mention about applying stats to everyone with a broad brush is exactly what many do and does happen and happens here too.

useful information .stats, and notions, that stem from what pros do is very often flawed for most amateurs. And whenever anyone highly regarded in the golf world says anything advice wise , its almost always taken as rule by amateurs. And that imo is part of a big problem. You simply cannot apply the same things that may apply to pro golf and then place that same notion or logic to the masses. Imo its a very misguided thought process. And fwiw so are percentages and stats which can all be designed and miscommunication in order to fit any point one wishes to make. Not mention skewed as well. Its not that everything stats or percentage wise is so wrong but just that most anyone can have a cause and come up with those things to then support it to suit their own agenda if they wish.

There are plenty great players out in our amateur world who posses a ball striking skill set to give the average pro a run for their money in that area but then lack (vs that same pro) in the short game and with putting. And there are also great playing amateurs who posses a short game and putting skill set to give the average pro a run but then lack the ball striking skill set to compete. It all works both ways.

But there is one thing for certain. Any player who lacks consistent efficiency at getting from tee to green is simply not on tour or no longer able to compete. There simply is no such thing as a most important part of golf imo and Im not afraid to repeat that the many times i have. It doesnt matter who beat who on tour nor how they did it. None of that is relevant nor makes any part more or less important. Its all always and only about what areas of play any given player needs the most help vs their own game.

 

[fuffle master]

I get that. So much is dependent on what's going on before one is on the green. Are they putting from 3' via an approach shot or via a chip, for example.

And please understand, I am a believer in using data to show what's really going on and subsequently improve a process - so long as the right data is being collected and the information is complete and accurate. I think the damage comes in how some folks spin or at least put too much emphasis on the data as though it applies to every individual. (I don't believe that's happening in this discussion.)

I apologize for repeating myself on this. I should probably stop typing and try to learn something instead.

You don't need to apologize for anything. I know many would say the comment of Drive for Show and Putt for Dough is very cliche or old silly statement. Much like the statements we hear in golf like trees are 90% air. Yeah, sure they are LOL

It's just a fun discussion to see what side of the fence more people are on. There is no correct answer. Just fun debating.

 

[rollin]

And so here is the start of one my recent rounds.

Hole #1 p4 dogleg. Tee off with 3w miss with badly hit squibbler that runs up about 40yrds along left trees. Luckily good stance and lie so I hit shot #2 a 5w and i do exactly the same thing up another 30 uyrds or so. . Now hitting 3 I need to use a 5i punch (which i am pretty good at doing) but I fail miserably and almost miss the ball. I end toe the darn thing almost 90* angle and off it goes across the entire fairway and flies deep into woods on other side. So Now Im dropping 4 hiting 5 and do so with my second 5i punch. good shot this time and get to short enough mid pitch distance and get on and 2 putt the very sloped green from about 20'. With all that I got an 8 and sitting at +4 after just one hole.

Hole#2 p5 I pull driver into left side trees. But im on the actual tree trunk and have no shot. I take a penalty stroke drop but even then no real alley to advance much and so shot #3 is a pitch out. Now Im hitting 4 and not yet even up to where one my well hit drives would have been. I hit a nice 3w but of course still lots of real-estate left. I hit a good approach and make a real good long lag putt and tap in the second for a double and now siting at +6 after two holes.

Hole3 p3 about 187 I mis green and have to pitch on from left side . i do so and then 2putt for the bogey. Im ok with this hole but now Im +7 after 3 holes

Hole 4 I hit a good long drive but leaks right and does so just a bit too much and from fw bounces into right side water that runs along fw. Now hitting 3 from there I then chip on and 1putt for the bogey and now +8.

Shall i continue this disaster? I mean Im sitting +8 after just 4 holes because of almost nothing else other than costly tee game. All mentioned was not at all the extent of it for this high 90's golf round and a+13 on just the front 9.
11 of the 13 wasted strokes were all related to tee game. I managed a few pars that day on a few of the holes I played good tee and ball striking on through. These are not reflective of all my poor rounds but are majority of them. And even when I play my better rounds there are still a couple at least or maybe 3 holes where my tee or approach ball striking leads to doubles and triples. Its not like my short game and putting never cost me anything. of course there are holes and even rounds where its not good as well. But the above is all to common all too often for me. And is also very similar to what i often see from tons of amateurs.

Yet somehow we are all suppose to know that putting (and fwiw even chipping game too) is the most important part of our games. And all those strokes lost from the tee are somehow less important and dont count for much just because we can chip and putt well. All because this is how player"X" beat player "Y" at the last pro tour event. And all because putting is their great separator vs each other. And all because those highly regarded in golf imply its the most important even though the notion is strictly based on tour pros games. Im suppose to beleive that those 8 strokes I lost on first 4 holes of that round are not that important because as long as i can putt (you know the most important part) it some how made those strokes disappear. I mean i actually putted well and didn't play a bad short game either on those holes yet there I was sitting at 8 over after 4 holes. But its ok because all those strokes (11 of 13) on the front came from a part of the game not all that important.

Im sorry folks and i dont care what any form of golf professional implies, the notion is misguided. All my better played rounds i ever played all began with play from the tees that was good and never from play that was bad from the tees. Sure ive had plenty my share of good tee days and blew up the putting or other short stuff too or fwiw couldnt hit an iron for an approach that day. But most often it begins with good tee play in order to first have a real chance at a better round. Then we need an approach game iron play that isnt costly either and then chipping and putting. Its all important and there is no such thing as any of it being less than another. Imo its actually silly to imply otherwise. All parts of our games are all relative to the other parts of our games and any order (if it even exists) of importance.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Putting is the only thing that matters when you're playing well from tee to green.

Keeping it in play is the only thing that matters if you've been hitting it in the woods all day.

And if you are so unfortunate as to have the wedge/chipping/bunker yips, NOT losing balls by blading short-game shots into the woods beyond the green is the only thing that matters.

Golf is interesting enough to play every day for the rest of our lives because the permutations of "what matters" on any given round are endless.

 

[Brassie]

I'll echo that it is not one thing or the other. It's the combination of minimizing mishits of any shot type. They all feed into the same goal.

At my peak, I was between a 6 - 8 hdcp for years and I had length off the tee and reasonably good accuracy but I always realized I was a never a great putter... so I focused on approach shot accuracy with irons and if I missed, then chipping/pitching it really close to minimize my exposure to my mediocre putting. Funny thing, I have had numerous/countless lessons on the tee for my golf swing and I cannot remember once getting a pro lesson on putting. My bad! Although I did practice my putting but without any real mentoring. Some of my playing partners were fabulous putters and the thing they had was the ability to read the green correctly and getting the ball on line with superb feel for distance. Also, they had ice water in the veins! They consistenly drained those 5-10 footers.

I was just looking at some old scorecards of mine yesterday, my lowest rounds (76, 77, 78, etc) usually all had average for me putts counts which was 33 or 34 putts per round. I always had at least one 3 putt hole and more likely two or more and this was because I failed to stick the ball close enough to the pin. If I had been a better putter consistently, I could have shaved several more strokes off of my scores.

I was never able to put every aspect of shot making together in one round of golf, except I had one back 9 from the tips on a 137 slope course playing against a club pro who had challenged me to a match on the back 9, I shot a one over 37 to beat him by 3 strokes. For that one moment on 9 holes, I pretty much had everything working as good as I could do. It sort of told me I lacked focus and was not careful enough about my putting normally, not the same as my tee and fairway play game.

 

[fuffle master]

In any discussion, I like to see both sides of the argument. I still sit firmly on the side the importance of off the tee for your game is more important than your putting game. Yet, I think we should look at other aspects from both sides.

One of the individuals I used when talking about should we leave in the flagstick was Dave Pelts. He is considered one of the gurus of putting. He has spoken about this topic as it comes up a lot for debate since the cliche is spoken by so many for a reason.

He doesn't believe putting is the most important. He doesn't believe off the tee is most important. He resides in the wedge play as being the most important. "If you hit great putts from 40-50 feet, they won’t go in – you can’t read the green well enough. You hit a perfect wedge, you save a stroke.

That’s why I got into wedges. Putting is not the most important part of the game – it’s your wedge game." "If you hit a great drive down the center of the fairway and I hit a drive down the left of the fairway, you don’t have an advantage. Why? Because if I hit a great wedge, and you hit an OK wedge, I beat you by a shot. Say I'm hitting monumental drives, I still need to hit a good wedge shot to pick up a shot. If I'm hitting bad drives, with a good wedge game I can save par. If you’re going to hit good shots, do it with your wedge!"

I know many have said it's the whole game, while that is totally correct, would you agree with Dave Peltz and that the true most important aspect of your game for lowering scores is the Wedge Game?

 

[joebute]

would you agree with Dave Peltz and that the true most important aspect of your game for lowering scores is the Wedge Game?

Maybe not most important, but top two probably? I still think driving is most important, because you have to set up the wedge approach in the first place. If you're good with a driver and a wedge, you're in pretty good shape regardless of the rest of your game.

 

[rollin]

In any discussion, I like to see both sides of the argument. I still sit firmly on the side the importance of off the tee for your game is more important than your putting game. Yet, I think we should look at other aspects from both sides.

One of the individuals I used when talking about should we leave in the flagstick was Dave Pelts. He is considered one of the gurus of putting. He has spoken about this topic as it comes up a lot for debate since the cliche is spoken by so many for a reason.

He doesn't believe putting is the most important. He doesn't believe off the tee is most important. He resides in the wedge play as being the most important. "If you hit great putts from 40-50 feet, they won’t go in – you can’t read the green well enough. You hit a perfect wedge, you save a stroke.

That’s why I got into wedges. Putting is not the most important part of the game – it’s your wedge game." "If you hit a great drive down the center of the fairway and I hit a drive down the left of the fairway, you don’t have an advantage. Why? Because if I hit a great wedge, and you hit an OK wedge, I beat you by a shot. Say I'm hitting monumental drives, I still need to hit a good wedge shot to pick up a shot. If I'm hitting bad drives, with a good wedge game I can save par. If you’re going to hit good shots, do it with your wedge!"

I know many have said it's the whole game, while that is totally correct, would you agree with Dave Peltz and that the true most important aspect of your game for lowering scores is the Wedge Game?

But your still talking about good drives. Put that left fw drive in the rough and now you will likely end up with missing the green by a greater margin requiring a longer pitch to get on and of course that is more difficult to now hit your target therefore lowering the chance of making a putt. Now also place that drive not just off the fw and simply in the rough but in the trees or weeds or perhaps water whatever may have you where its going to cost you a stroke just to get back into play.

You see, its all the same thing. Nothing changes. Strokes are strokes and being in worse positions to do the next thing is always a higher risk of failures for that next thing especially at many our levels which all comes at the cost of strokes somewhere.

And again here we are choosing to compare two players and using player "X" vs "Y". And that is never a relevant thing when determining whats most important for the individuals game. The only thing to compare whats more important is ones own game vs himself (and the courses he plays). The better any of us are at doing anything in any part of the game , the better players we will be. It dosnt matter what anyone else does. If you hit more fairways in the desired target area that you want you will be better for it. If you fail less at that the better you will be for it. Same with approach shots, same with chips and pitches and same with putting. Strokes are strokes regardless and better executions of any shots then leads to better positions and chances at then executing the next shot and that holds true from moment we step on the tee till we hole the ball. And any failed shot that is costly is still costly and the extra stroke doesn't disappear. And the harder we make any next shot due to the last one being less than good or poor then makes that next shot have a higher rate of failure or being less than good which leads to a lessor chance at the next one, etc.. till holed. Its all tied together. Its all important equally and nothing is of less importance. Strokes are strokes. The only question is ….where is the individual failing most? And whats costing him the most. Being a little off center is not the same failure as being in the woods. And while it may be a bit easier to improve the wedge game vs getting that off center drive to be on center it still doesn't make any of it less important. Eventually you will want to and need to also straighten that out best you can. And of its penal and or often costly youll even need to fix it first because too many strokes are going to be the result.