Swing Thoughts
razaar
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At the time I was returning to golf after a break of 10 years. I only bought it because it has photos of John Senden from Keperra Golf Club (my local golf course). I read it and it became another book in my library. I had left golf on a low handicap to follow our lads in their sport, so I didn't need to learn the golf swing - just catch up to where I left off.
No it didn't help. But I did look through it after you mentioned it and I can see why it didn't sell in Australia.
Razaar,
I am curious why you said his book didn’t sell in Australia ? Most copies for sale are from Australia. It was reprinted 2-3 times so it had some sales. I can’t imagine it would not tremendously help any player.
Senden is now living in Dallas, Tx. My pro friend played in a tournament with him a few months back.
I am curious why you said his book didn’t sell in Australia ? Most copies for sale are from Australia. It was reprinted 2-3 times so it had some sales. I can’t imagine it would not tremendously help any player.
Senden is now living in Dallas, Tx. My pro friend played in a tournament with him a few months back.
WILDTHING
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Is having an imagined 'picture/feel' of my intended task before I begin my swing a 'swing thought'? I definitely wouldn't try to use any internal focus thoughts (ie. anything to do with body parts) as that has been proven by scientists to disrupt the sub-conscious engagement of the necessary muscles to perform such a rapid task (ie. a motor-driven skill task).
Wikipedia definition:
"A motor skill is a learned ability to cause a predetermined movement outcome with maximum certainty. Motor learning is the relatively permanent change in the ability to perform a skill as a result of practice or experience. Performance is an act of executing a motor skill. The goal of motor skill is to optimize the ability to perform the skill at the rate of success, precision, and to reduce the energy consumption required for performance. Continuous practice of a specific motor skill will result in a greatly improved performance. "
I try and use 'external focus' cues like:
1. 'Cut the dandelions' image . A tiny line of dandelions in front of the ball that I wish to cut with the bottom edge of my club.
2. Imagine the feel of the clubface /ball contact immediately after impact using my intent to send the ball in the correct direction/trajectory during my practice swings. I then try and replicate that same 'feel' in my real swing.
Ironically , I would tend to imagine how that post impact 'feel' would be as pressure felt in my hands even though I know they aren't doing much in powering the golf swing.
Here is Shawn Clement demonstrating what I think is a good way to approach a predetermined 'feel/task' intent (ie. setup matches the picture). Note how much time he spends creating 'the picture of his intent' and then fine tunes his setup so that his dynamic practice swing matches the feel he thinks will create his pictured intent.
Wikipedia definition:
"A motor skill is a learned ability to cause a predetermined movement outcome with maximum certainty. Motor learning is the relatively permanent change in the ability to perform a skill as a result of practice or experience. Performance is an act of executing a motor skill. The goal of motor skill is to optimize the ability to perform the skill at the rate of success, precision, and to reduce the energy consumption required for performance. Continuous practice of a specific motor skill will result in a greatly improved performance. "
I try and use 'external focus' cues like:
1. 'Cut the dandelions' image . A tiny line of dandelions in front of the ball that I wish to cut with the bottom edge of my club.
2. Imagine the feel of the clubface /ball contact immediately after impact using my intent to send the ball in the correct direction/trajectory during my practice swings. I then try and replicate that same 'feel' in my real swing.
Ironically , I would tend to imagine how that post impact 'feel' would be as pressure felt in my hands even though I know they aren't doing much in powering the golf swing.
Here is Shawn Clement demonstrating what I think is a good way to approach a predetermined 'feel/task' intent (ie. setup matches the picture). Note how much time he spends creating 'the picture of his intent' and then fine tunes his setup so that his dynamic practice swing matches the feel he thinks will create his pictured intent.
Kinda what I've been doing lately...I visualize the club path(with low point). When visualization is set in, take a way.
My practice swings are highlights of what I want done.
I was always intrigued by the pros when the did that way inside follow thru. I always thought it was something to do with the D plane, and it might be some of that. But I think it also highlights how the hips turn thru the swing. Somebody set me straight if I'm too far off base.
My practice swings are highlights of what I want done.
I was always intrigued by the pros when the did that way inside follow thru. I always thought it was something to do with the D plane, and it might be some of that. But I think it also highlights how the hips turn thru the swing. Somebody set me straight if I'm too far off base.
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
IMO, depending on how a person thinks visualizing can be a key point for those that imagine what they are doing before they do it. A lot of the best athletes say they visualize the goal or target more than anything else they do. I remember Michael Jordan stating that he saw the basketball going in the basket before he actually made moves toward it.
I also remember a great golfer being interviewed (don't remember his name at the moment) stating the he basically saw a tunnel to the target area, not seeing anything else around him, and struck the ball sending it through that tunnel.
WILDTHING
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From Ben Hogan's book.
Not sure whether Shawn Clement is wholly correct when he says we are already hard-wired to do the golf swing . Maybe we are hard-wired to do other things like throwing things and predetermining how gravity or other external forces might affect your intended task (all about experience I suspect and learning from failure). I mean every golf swing can be slightly different depending on how the ball lies , ground conditions , environmental conditions , etc . So does this mean we have to learn how to fine-tune all our movements which can take a lot of time and practice?
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Wild thing,
If the human was hard-wired for the golf swing, then why are our greatest athletes in Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Football , etc ; not playing on tv at the 3M today and leading it ? Does that mean I am hardwired to be a brain Surgeon or to be a NFL quarterback who can throw a football 70- 80 yards ? Why did someone have to teach me how to tie my shoes and a necktie? Was I hard wired to drive a car ? Is a mechanic hard wired to build and repair a race car engine ?
The absolute insanity and lack of thought process made by someone who says such ludicrous statements!
If the human was hard-wired for the golf swing, then why are our greatest athletes in Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Football , etc ; not playing on tv at the 3M today and leading it ? Does that mean I am hardwired to be a brain Surgeon or to be a NFL quarterback who can throw a football 70- 80 yards ? Why did someone have to teach me how to tie my shoes and a necktie? Was I hard wired to drive a car ? Is a mechanic hard wired to build and repair a race car engine ?
The absolute insanity and lack of thought process made by someone who says such ludicrous statements!
WILDTHING
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Maybe I've done SC a disservice by saying 'hard-wired' for the golf swing (maybe he meant something else). 'Wadesworld' knows his philosophy better than me.
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
As with most things there is a learning curve. We are wired to do many things with some being more skilled at certain talents than others. I can do a lot of things, but some things just come natural for me.
I observe about 40 golfers that I play with on two different leagues and I watch many things they do. I find that the better golfers tend to be able to repeat a swing pattern on a steady basis with different swings on different clubs. With their irons they have a repeatable swing given most any lie as they tend to know how to get into the correct position as to minimize how the lie might affect the strike.
The next group I notice loses strokes due to the more difficult lies and then the final higher handicap group are more erratic throughout the game and would benefit by simply more consistency and better short game play.
I used to play around 100 a round, then got down in the low 90s, and now I am down in the 80s and working to get this lower.. Of course we all have bad days as it is golf. I got away from all the swing thoughts/mechanics except for a few basic things and decided to do what works for me - primarily repeatable positioning and swing. I starting figuring out some ways to repeat what works for me.
I focused on four areas and not in any real order. First was diligence in practicing. Next was more FIRs off the tee box, next was stronger irons to the greens to make better GIRs, finally and most importantly was my chipping and putting game. Chipping to a target area of the green to get as close as possible to the pin to minimize putting distance.
The most game changing was putting which has made a world of difference in my game. I have learned if I miss a putt I miss close which turns birdies into pars and not bogeys.
Which is often compounded by "feels." I don't know who said it first, but "feels ain't reals." How many of us thought we were doing a certain thing, finally videoed ourselves, and discovered what we were really doing wasn't even remotely close to what we thought we were?
FWIW, my instructors at TMG claim a motion has to be repeated thousands of times (15k sticks in my mind) before it becomes "muscle memory."
"Difficult" doesn't even begin to describe it, in my view
*hmph* Personally, I think some of the gobbledygook helps understand what needs to happen, thus helps one get there. I'm thinking back to a couple highly-technical swing mechanics discussions that were held here on THP last season. (You, @razaar, and @WILDTHING, at least, were involved.) Absorbing the principles to which I was exposed in those threads went a long way to improving my swing. Then again: I'm very technical-/engineering-oriented.
Really? Everything I've ever read, and my instructor, last year, said the golf swing, the traditional golf swing, anyway, was entirely unnatural.
Luchnia,
A statement and a follow up question for discussion- could reasonable people agree that Bubba Watson can maneuver a golf ball to control his desired flight patterns about as good as any player in the game ?
If we can then how does he perform such task? What part of his body is responsible for making that happen ?
A statement and a follow up question for discussion- could reasonable people agree that Bubba Watson can maneuver a golf ball to control his desired flight patterns about as good as any player in the game ?
If we can then how does he perform such task? What part of his body is responsible for making that happen ?
Duffer Seamus,
More preposterous , ludicrous statements by folks who just regurgitate what they have read . Who have never stopped to question if what they were saying is actually - factual ! How many times have I read * muscle memory * in hundreds of golf instruction books the past 60 years ? If their was such a thing as * muscle memory * I suppose it has slipped by the research on the human body by our most brilliant Neurologist and Brain Surgeons.
However, we do know that the ONLY memory is in the brain and it is constantly sending signals to it’s body to perform ALL the task / movement we make daily. Most of those are mapped out ( embedded ) in your brain and we give them little or no thought, but their are many, many task that are not in our DNA - those come into the category of - * learned conscious task . * I don’t know why our maker left golf out ?
More preposterous , ludicrous statements by folks who just regurgitate what they have read . Who have never stopped to question if what they were saying is actually - factual ! How many times have I read * muscle memory * in hundreds of golf instruction books the past 60 years ? If their was such a thing as * muscle memory * I suppose it has slipped by the research on the human body by our most brilliant Neurologist and Brain Surgeons.
However, we do know that the ONLY memory is in the brain and it is constantly sending signals to it’s body to perform ALL the task / movement we make daily. Most of those are mapped out ( embedded ) in your brain and we give them little or no thought, but their are many, many task that are not in our DNA - those come into the category of - * learned conscious task . * I don’t know why our maker left golf out ?
Wildthing,
Your instructor was correct. The golf swing is foreign and opposite of all human genetics. That is why it is so difficult to learn . Especially, if you start with the idea that it is a * NATURAL. * task ! Having some basic knowledge of how the human body is wired and what controls what and how is a major key to a successful golf swing. When a player attaches the grip end / butt of a shaft he or she becomes a very intricate part of that lever system.
IMO - knowing what controls muscle movements and what the human is capable of and NOT capable of performing ( especially, during 2/10 o the DS ) is extremely important in learning a successful golf swing.
I have had phenomenal success teaching players some basic knowledge of human genetics .
Your instructor was correct. The golf swing is foreign and opposite of all human genetics. That is why it is so difficult to learn . Especially, if you start with the idea that it is a * NATURAL. * task ! Having some basic knowledge of how the human body is wired and what controls what and how is a major key to a successful golf swing. When a player attaches the grip end / butt of a shaft he or she becomes a very intricate part of that lever system.
IMO - knowing what controls muscle movements and what the human is capable of and NOT capable of performing ( especially, during 2/10 o the DS ) is extremely important in learning a successful golf swing.
I have had phenomenal success teaching players some basic knowledge of human genetics .
Duffer Seamus,
I love to discuss the swing with technically - engineer - types . Let me roll this by and see if it makes any sense to you —-
Hundreds of instruction books have been written by expert PGA winners who were definitely trying to pass on some knowledge that had .
IMO, it is utterly impossible for a human to describe and explain what they feel they are doing during 2/10 seconds of the DS when what you felt had already happened milliseconds ago . IMO, this is the reason their is so much confusion and misinformation in instruction.
Most are doing exactly the opposite of what they are saying. You can clearly see this if you use your own skills of observation instead of listening to audio or written analysis.
I love to discuss the swing with technically - engineer - types . Let me roll this by and see if it makes any sense to you —-
Hundreds of instruction books have been written by expert PGA winners who were definitely trying to pass on some knowledge that had .
IMO, it is utterly impossible for a human to describe and explain what they feel they are doing during 2/10 seconds of the DS when what you felt had already happened milliseconds ago . IMO, this is the reason their is so much confusion and misinformation in instruction.
Most are doing exactly the opposite of what they are saying. You can clearly see this if you use your own skills of observation instead of listening to audio or written analysis.
You'll notice I put "muscle memory" in double-quotes. I'm not even certain the instructor (who has a degree in biomechanics) used that term at any point. The point is: It takes repetition, a lot of it, in order for a movement to become truly automatic.
Neither my in-person instructor, last year, nor the people from whom I'm currently getting instruction, have attempted that.
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
While in league play yesterday, I saw something I have never seen and could not even imagine it happening. One of the guys on my team went up to the tee box, got his position, then started his back swing then his full downswing on his driver and somehow he stopped the downswing mid-air.
We were standing there and wondering how that was possible without something physically happening to him. At first it looked like he had broken his hand or fingers as he dropped the driver, but he was alright and after some time he hit his drive.
It was the strangest thing to behold. I know I could not stop a full swing and I think even if I could that would have snapped my arms like twigs.
We were standing there and wondering how that was possible without something physically happening to him. At first it looked like he had broken his hand or fingers as he dropped the driver, but he was alright and after some time he hit his drive.
It was the strangest thing to behold. I know I could not stop a full swing and I think even if I could that would have snapped my arms like twigs.
wye, that's impossible!!!!!
razaar
Well-known member
He made the decision to pull out during the backswing. A scientific study into the golf swing published in "Search for the Perfect Swing" proved the golf swing is impossible to stop once the player commits to the downswing.
The test was done by flashing lights with the player to stop the downswing if the light flashes on the way down. Tiger made a big show stopping his downswing but he made the decision during his backswing. If the distraction occurred during his downswing he couldn't stop the swing and he got pissed.
WILDTHING
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Really? Everything I've ever read, and my instructor, last year, said the golf swing, the traditional golf swing, anyway, was entirely unnatural.
[/QUOTE]
I tried to find a video (there are 100's of them) where he mentioned "already hard-wired" but then I found this statement on the 'Wisdom In Golf ' website:
"WISDOM IN GOLF taps in directly to how your brain and body are wired and formed to open the door to a new way of approaching the game of golf. "
Maybe he means we have evolved to be able to sense and respond to the dynamic weight of objects (not that we are born already with those skills) better than just relying on learning specific movements to different positions. If we 'tapped' into that ability would that be deemed to be a form of 'naturalness'?
[/QUOTE]
I tried to find a video (there are 100's of them) where he mentioned "already hard-wired" but then I found this statement on the 'Wisdom In Golf ' website:
"WISDOM IN GOLF taps in directly to how your brain and body are wired and formed to open the door to a new way of approaching the game of golf. "
Maybe he means we have evolved to be able to sense and respond to the dynamic weight of objects (not that we are born already with those skills) better than just relying on learning specific movements to different positions. If we 'tapped' into that ability would that be deemed to be a form of 'naturalness'?
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
It was the oddest thing. He was about 1/3 the way down the swing and stopped it. What was weird was when he dropped the club just after he stopped it was when we thought he was hurt. There were three of us watching it. I never in my life saw anything like this. We thought he broke his hand. I am still thinking how this could be as in my mind it would be impossible to stop a downswing much like stopping a baseball swing once in motion.
WILDTHING
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I don't have an instructor and never had a golf lesson in my life . With regards Shawn Clement instruction, I find his videos on external focus cues (based on Dr Gabriele Wulf research) very useful and also his comments on unilateral and bilateral movements interesting. From a brain perspective , I think external focus cues is sufficiently difficult for me to master after spending many years using internal focus (ie. thinking about body parts and positions).
From what I remember , Ernest Jones philosophy was about other body parts responding to the intent of the hands , but unfortunately, thinking about what you want the hands to do will end up as an internal focus cue , so not for me.
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Wild thing,
Maybe this invites some thought ? —- I am well aware of Ernest Jones philosophy, but since facts discovered by our leading Neurological experts / researchers show us that more than 40% of the human brain is dedicated to it dominant hands , especially to it’s dominant thumb which is critical if we are to HOLD / GRIP ANY OBJECT. Also - we know that the brain is ALWAYS aware of the location of its hands and their is a direct connection between the brain and it’s dominant and they can’t be hidden from it . Also - the body will always position itself to accommodate the path its hands desire to travel .
Oh , forgot —AND these dominant hands are the ONLY connection/ attachment to the implement chosen for the task and they are the only body part capable of rotating the face of the club from a right palm facing upward / skyward in our BS and capable of rolling it over our chest to a right palm facing down almost 270 degrees ( toe down) .
Conclusion , IMO , Ernest Jones * philosophy * was actually FACTUAL. Could it be that Ernest Jones was a learned man who was way ahead of his time ?
Unfortunately, he didn’t also warn us that golf was NOT pre- mapped out in our subconscious brain and had to be a learned conscious effort or those DOMINANT HANDS could also be detrimental( disastrous ) to perform something it knew nothing about and would always return back to its genetic design if not taught Otherwise .
If their is some other part of the body that CONTROLS directs the face of the club into the inside quadrant of the ball please tell me today . I want to learn !
Maybe this invites some thought ? —- I am well aware of Ernest Jones philosophy, but since facts discovered by our leading Neurological experts / researchers show us that more than 40% of the human brain is dedicated to it dominant hands , especially to it’s dominant thumb which is critical if we are to HOLD / GRIP ANY OBJECT. Also - we know that the brain is ALWAYS aware of the location of its hands and their is a direct connection between the brain and it’s dominant and they can’t be hidden from it . Also - the body will always position itself to accommodate the path its hands desire to travel .
Oh , forgot —AND these dominant hands are the ONLY connection/ attachment to the implement chosen for the task and they are the only body part capable of rotating the face of the club from a right palm facing upward / skyward in our BS and capable of rolling it over our chest to a right palm facing down almost 270 degrees ( toe down) .
Conclusion , IMO , Ernest Jones * philosophy * was actually FACTUAL. Could it be that Ernest Jones was a learned man who was way ahead of his time ?
Unfortunately, he didn’t also warn us that golf was NOT pre- mapped out in our subconscious brain and had to be a learned conscious effort or those DOMINANT HANDS could also be detrimental( disastrous ) to perform something it knew nothing about and would always return back to its genetic design if not taught Otherwise .
If their is some other part of the body that CONTROLS directs the face of the club into the inside quadrant of the ball please tell me today . I want to learn !
Relevant parts of the Original Post...
I don't know how we got to a thesis (it's a virus called "continual threadjack").
Yes, write a couple of helpful thoughts on a post-it note. As they become habits, eliminate them from your note and your mind. You may need to replace them or if fortunate, you may eliminate the need for the note but you will probably always have one or two thoughts. Keep them during your practice swing. Forget them over the ball.
I don't know how we got to a thesis (it's a virus called "continual threadjack").
Yes, write a couple of helpful thoughts on a post-it note. As they become habits, eliminate them from your note and your mind. You may need to replace them or if fortunate, you may eliminate the need for the note but you will probably always have one or two thoughts. Keep them during your practice swing. Forget them over the ball.
razaar
Well-known member
@ Lane
The hands and arms are controlled by shoulder rotation. The inside to out contact is a combination of transverse adduction + external rotation + retraction of the right shoulder from transition to the release. The hands are fully occupied in holding the club, so it is safe to conclude that they are part of the club.
The hands and arms are controlled by shoulder rotation. The inside to out contact is a combination of transverse adduction + external rotation + retraction of the right shoulder from transition to the release. The hands are fully occupied in holding the club, so it is safe to conclude that they are part of the club.