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Green Speeds

JB

JB

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Okay guys, I need some help here and maybe someone on THP can give me insight. As many of you know, I spend my time studying different facets of the game from the equipment industry, the different tours and of course golf courses. One area that has popped up a lot on the forums is local golf courses with everything from THP get togethers to club championships. A subsection that is always covered seems to be the speed of the greens where we/they are going to be playing.

People are posting green speeds that rival Augusta National at local courses. Is this the case? I have played all over the place and on some of the fastest greens I have ever imagined and when truly measured, they don't come close to some of the speeds that are being discussed. Is it that people are unaware? Could it be golf courses giving out false information (maybe they are not actually measuring or using a different tool).

The last couple of THP Outings (tour courses) have had greens that were blazing fast in spots and I know the measurements there and they don't even come close to what I am seeing discussed some local spots for rounds. Can anyone help me with this?
 
I would just say that it is a lack of actual knowledge. People just think they know fast greens.
 
blugold said:
I would just say that it is a lack of actual knowledge. People just think they know fast greens.
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This is it to me.

Heck, that is it FOR me. I don't fully grasp the stimpmeter, so I stay out of those conversations. I just know some places I play are slower or faster than the others. I don't have any real major outside comparisons thought.
 
Well at my local we have,supposedly, some of the fastest greens in Mass. But I never see a stimp reading so I dont know. Some other courses I play round here are slower, some faster whether or not they are throwing the bull around is up for debate. I doubt the stimp readings on the PGA Tour are ever seen on local munis except for maybe Bethpage Black. I have never honestly asked a greenskeeper the speed of our greens, it never really occured to me to ask.I,m sure down south, they r faster than up here simply due to the heat u guys experience. Anywhoo, up here is a wide variety of speeds whether or not they relate to whats discussed or measured is truly speculative
 
I think people are unaware, and/or have never had to measure a green before. I have played on blazing fast TOUR greens, and otherwise, have measured both multiple times and have been lucky enough to feel like I have enough experience to tell the difference. Ive also played on greens that they had to slow down for a tour event, which was interesting to say the least.


But all in all I think its because people just guess how fast the tour greens are and have their local shag courses that they call a 10', (double digit internet golfer thing) and they base it off that. Not to mention the courses that do publicly post their stimp speeds, lie a lot, just as much as they lie on the scorecard about yardages.
 
I would wager that the fastest I've played on were about an 8 or a 9, and trust me, that SEEMS fast when you don't know.
 
I concur with your thoughts JB. I have people tell me all the time that the greens are a certain speed. The truth is, that from a maintenance perspective, you cannot keep greens at tour speeds, for extended periods in hot weather, without killing them. They are nearly always much slower unless set up for a tournament for a short period. I have two close friends that are superintendents. We have discussed this several times. I am sure you have seen a green that starts to turn purple. This is what happens if a green is too dry and hard for an extended period. This is the a precursor to losing the green.

I think we as golfers get used to greens that are a bit slower during normal seasonal play and anything faster is "tour speed". Just my two cents.
 
I have no real knowledge of the true speed at my home course, so just listen to guys that have played a lot longer, and may have some real insight. When we had our last Super, our greens were never that fast, and the guys would say a 7 or 8. Now we have a new Super, he came from Hillcrest CC(home of The Boise Open), and a new roller, and even he said when he gets them fast, about 10-10.5.....just for tournaments and such. Don't know if this really equates to anything, but even uphill putts are super fast at those speeds. And downhillers are almost impossible.
 
I have never seen/asked for a stimp reading at any of the courses I play at. I think the issue, and I am probably guilty of this, is that a lot of people don't know what a "fast" green is. I know that I played a course a couple weeks ago that felt like I was putting on glass, but I am sure it pales in comparison to anything on the PGA Tour.

I have never claimed that I have putted on anything NEAR as quick as Augusta or something on the tour, but I think that I probably overvalue the speed of the greens I play on compared to the ones on tour because I dont know how fast they are in comparison.

Do most courses make stimp readings public? I guess I just have honestly never seen them
 
I have never been to a local course that provided green speeds. The only course I have played where we were informed of them was at True Blue and I think someone said they were running about 10 or 10.5. Even at that, they did not seem too quick to me. As someone else stated, I stay out of the discussion simply because I could not honestly tell anyone whether a green was rolling at 8, 10, or 12.
 
I'm with everyone else previously posting, most people think they know what the speed is.

Just like they all hit 300+ yd drives on avg, everyone plays on 12' speed greens.
 
I know what my course says they try to keep ours at and I how most other courses in the area compare to it. I asked what True Blue what they'd be like prior to the MC and they said 10.5. I thought they were very fast at that speed.
 
LargePhil said:
I concur with your thoughts JB. I have people tell me all the time that the greens are a certain speed. The truth is, that from a maintenance perspective, you cannot keep greens at tour speeds, for extended periods in hot weather, without killing them. They are nearly always much slower unless set up for a tournament for a short period. I have two close friends that are superintendents. We have discussed this several times. I am sure you have seen a green that starts to turn purple. This is what happens if a green is too dry and hard for an extended period. This is the a precursor to losing the green.

I think we as golfers get used to greens that are a bit slower during normal seasonal play and anything faster is "tour speed". Just my two cents.
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I gotta agree Large,those speeds will die kept at those speeds without some serious water and some growth.One course around here has that and the summer hasn,t been too bad up here in the good ole northeast.
 
I have to agree with some of the posters above. I think it's a lack of knowledge about what true green speed is and how it's measured.

How often have you been playing a round of golf and someone absolutely murders the ball with their putter, then sits there and blames the putt they just blew past the hole by 20 feet on "fast greens."

I played this weekend on a course that has quick greens, while I think they are quick, they are nothing compared to some of the courses I have played in Tampa or Orlando.
 
LargePhil said:
I concur with your thoughts JB. I have people tell me all the time that the greens are a certain speed. The truth is, that from a maintenance perspective, you cannot keep greens at tour speeds, for extended periods in hot weather, without killing them. They are nearly always much slower unless set up for a tournament for a short period. I have two close friends that are superintendents. We have discussed this several times. I am sure you have seen a green that starts to turn purple. This is what happens if a green is too dry and hard for an extended period. This is the a precursor to losing the green.

I think we as golfers get used to greens that are a bit slower during normal seasonal play and anything faster is "tour speed". Just my two cents.
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To be honest though, the speed of a green largely relies on how healthy the plant is. The grass that is turning purple is being cut too short for its health. And someone is doing their job wrong. Not much about too dry or hard, they go yellow and brown from those symptoms.

The lowest I have ever seen a green cut at is .065". That is 6.5/100 of an inch. Thats low.
 
I've honestly never been to a course where they give out the green speeds, then again I don't think I've ever asked either.

I have played Champions Run right after the Cox Classic, and those were the fastest greens I've ever played on. Even the higher end courses in and around Lincoln that usually have fast greens didn't compare to those greens.

I would imagine that people are either estimating, or are being given false information. Courses that I have worked at in the past usually keep green speeds on the slower end as it helps speed up play. It's very easy to tell because they would get rolling pretty quick when we hosted tournaments like the State Am and State Match Play events.
 
blugold said:
I would just say that it is a lack of actual knowledge. People just think they know fast greens.
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Agreed. I think "fast" greens for me are probably average at best as most greens in the area are very slow. So when one is average it seems "fast".
 
The only thing I can gauge speed on is my putting green in my basement.
It's a Little Murf Amateur speed green I think it's around a 9~9.5 on the stimp meter.

This year I have to say that Grand Cypress and Bulle Rock the fastest that I have played so far.
In my area Hampshire Greens can ruin your day with their Greens. They seem to be quicker than my indoor green for sure.
 
Yep, I would agree with lack of knowledge. I know that at our course, the stimp is listed on a board when you are at the first tee. More often then not you will be playing with a green fee player, or a resort guest and they will say, "those were way faster than a 10, those were playing like 12 or 13." Ummmm no they weren't, you just don't know what that means.
 
Kmac said:
Agreed. I think "fast" greens for me are probably average at best as most greens in the area are very slow. So when one is average it seems "fast".
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I agree with this. A lot of courses down this way have medium to slow speeds on their greens, mainly as they are designed to cater to the older population.

For example, I will play a round on Sunday at a course with slow greens, and then go play on Wednesday at my course for League and all of a sudden I think their "average" speed is like putting on concrete.
 
I know that the speeds I usually play at are much slower than the MC greens or the last outing greens.

Only once have I played what I know to be a green rolling at 12 and that was at my old home course in GA when they prepared it for a tourney. They had it rolling at 12 and it was tremendously fast. Never played on anything like it since.
 
I think most people are blissfully ignorant of what "fast" really means. They hear a certain tournament course is running at an 11 or a Major is set up at a 13 and automatically assume they fastest green in their area are nearly as fast. On the interwebs ten's get thrown around like 300 yard drives. Considering the USGA uses a 8.5 as a guideline for fast, I think most people would have a very rude awakening if they ever played anything rivaling tour speed.
 
My course has the stimp rating posted next to the pin placement outside the club house. I don't know how often they updated it but it usually reads somewhere between 11-12. My guess is it's pretty accurate. They are definitely the fastest greens in the area.

JB, why don't you guys get/build a stimp device and measure the speeds on the tour van trip around the country. From my understanding it's just a ramp and tape measure. It would be fun to see how they compare across the country.
 
All of the above. Some people probably have no clue how fast PGA tour greens can be. Golf course could also be providing false stimpmeter speeds because they are not using the device properly. I have played numerous rounds on the monday/tuesday morning after the PGA event, so I feel like I have a general sense of how fast some of those greens can be. In many cases, they are blazingly fast... uncofomortably so. There are several courses in my area that post the speed reading for the day. Sometimes I feel that the speeds are slower than "advertised".
 
Schanker said:
My course has the stimp rating posted next to the pin placement outside the club house. I don't know how often they updated it but it usually reads somewhere between 11-12. My guess is it's pretty accurate. They are definitely the fastest greens in the area.

JB, why don't you guys get/build a stimp device and measure the speeds on the tour van trip around the country. From my understanding it's just a ramp and tape measure. It would be fun to see how they compare across the country.
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I have actually toyed with the idea of building a stimp. I even looked up instructions on how to do so. You have just sparked my desire to do this again.
 
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