A confusing rule I can not determine for certain

[rollin]

You adress the ball in heavy rough. The ball is sitting midway up. as you place the club behind the ball it moves. One question I have is how else can you place the club and not cause it to move? That can be impossible sometimes.

But the main question is according to the rules i have read. If the player makes the ball move after address and during the swing its ok. But if it moves while at adress but before the swing starts, its a penalty. Now this seems quite simple i guess but of course there is more. They consider it no penalty if the club has not yet grounded because they indicate it means he is not yet at address position.

But I have seen balls in rough sitting couple inches off the ground. One may not want to ground the club at address in order to keep the sweat spot at the proper height. The ball of course may move as you push the club down even before grounding it but if your intent is not to ground the club anyway then this to me would mean you are indeed at address even though the club is not grounded.

Here is some of the ruling but think it leaves some debate open. and again, I secondarily ask how else can you address the ball sitting off the ground in heavy rough without making it move whether you want to ground the club or not?

18-2b/5

Ball Moves When Club Rested on Grass Immediately Behind Ball

Q.A player's ball is at rest. He rests his club on the grass immediately behind the ball and the ball moves. What is the ruling?
A.If the grass had been compressed to the point where it would support the weight of the club, the club is considered grounded. Therefore, the player has addressed the ball and Rule 18-2b applies. The player incurs a one-stroke penalty and must replace his ball unless it is known or virtually certain that some other agency (e.g., a dog or wind) caused the ball to move.

If the grass had not been compressed to the point where it would support the weight of the club, the player has not grounded his club and, therefore, has not addressed his ball. The player incurs no penalty under Rule 18-2b, but he is subject to penalty under Rule 18-2a if the player's actions caused the ball to move.

 

[Chickopher]

I am not a rules expert but based on the wording of the rule and the Q/A you posted, it appears that it is a one stroke penalty.

 

[blugold]

A confusing rule I can not determine for certain

There is no rule that you have to ground a club. If your ball is sitting up in the rough and looks like it might move while at address, don't sole the club.

 

[JRod]

Oscillation and moving is the real difference here. The ball may shift back and forth as the grass is moved and this is ok under the rules as I understand them.

If the ball rolls you incur a penalty.

 

[rollin]

There is no rule that you have to ground a club. If your ball is sitting up in the rough and looks like it might move while at address, don't sole the club.

no there isn't but at the same time they are not considering the club at address until its grounded. So kind of a loop hole I guess. Makes it so you almost cant ground it (like you say) because if you know the ball will move it will then be a penalty. If you slowly place the club down and the ball starts to move just simply stop and pull away and your ok but then you are suppose to then replace the ball where it was. But then the process can continue over again. Its all kind of nutty imo. How does one get the club behind the ball in those situations without moving it? Had this twice the other day while in a charity outing (which was fun till it rained) But on two occasions was in some thick plush rough and there was just no way to keep the ball still while attempting to get set for address.

 

[rollin]

Oscillation and moving is the real difference here. The ball may shift back and forth as the grass is moved and this is ok under the rules as I understand them.

If the ball rolls you incur a penalty.

Only if it moves while at address. Not before if the club has not been grounded and not after once the swing started.

 

[blugold]

no there isn't but at the same time they are not considering the club at address until its grounded. So kind of a loop hole I guess. Makes it so you almost cant ground it (like you say) because if you know the ball will move it will then be a penalty. If you slowly place the club down and the ball starts to move just simply stop and pull away and your ok but then you are suppose to then replace the ball where it was. But then the process can continue over again. Its all kind of nutty imo. How does one get the club behind the ball in those situations without moving it? Had this twice the other day while in a charity outing (which was fun till it rained) But on two occasions was in some thick plush rough and there was just no way to keep the ball still while attempting to get set for address.

If the action of grounding the club causes the ball to move, then it's a penalty. That's my understanding at least.

Fourputt will be in here to set us straight.

 

[Darren37]

Ok to me when it gets to that point then Golf is not fun anymore. Unless I'm a professional and go by all of that then yeah....by all means go by the book. Lose a stroke cuz the ball moved? Wow. I better not fart on the course either....smh. I might give someone a stroke then:bomb::bulgy-eyes::secret::shame:

 

[Lefty78]

Only if it moves while at address. Not before if the club has not been grounded and not after once the swing started.

Not necessarily, if you cause your ball to move it is a one stroke penalty, Rule 18 2a. If you move the grass with your club and the ball moves (drops down for example) it is a stroke penalty. My question would be how to replace the ball before playing after it drops down deeper into the grass. ( I had this happen in a tournament ) The answer for me was, a stroke penalty and to play the ball in the new position because it wasn't possible to put it back up where it had fallen from--it had fallen maybe an inch. It sounds like you need to hover your club above the grass before your swing.

Rule 18 2a applies anywhere except for the circumstances in 18 2b so before you address the ball, 18 2a is in effect.

 

[MWard]

Oscillation and moving is the real difference here. The ball may shift back and forth as the grass is moved and this is ok under the rules as I understand them.

If the ball rolls you incur a penalty.

This is my understanding of the rule as well. A wiggle, you're ok. It rolls, oops.

 

[Parshooter36]

I think bluegold hit the nail on the head here. If the ball is sitting up in the rough, I do not ground my club for fear of the ball moving.

 

[rollin]

Not necessarily, if you cause your ball to move it is a one stroke penalty, Rule 18 2a. If you move the grass with your club and the ball moves (drops down for example) it is a stroke penalty. My question would be how to replace the ball before playing after it drops down deeper into the grass. ( I had this happen in a tournament ) The answer for me was, a stroke penalty and to play the ball in the new position because it wasn't possible to put it back up where it had fallen from--it had fallen maybe an inch. It sounds like you need to hover your club above the grass before your swing.

Rule 18 2a applies anywhere except for the circumstances in 18 2b so before you address the ball, 18 2a is in effect.

Ok sounds ok but here is (2a)
Notice the part - "except in the act of addressing the bal" But I guess that means if the club touches it. Sounds off to me because that would mean you can accidently touch it with the club and cause it to move while in the act of addressing it but if the grass you move as you place the club while in the act to address it causes it to move it is a penalty? But then its not a penalty under (2b/5) as long as you have not yet grounded the club but is one under 2a.

But 2a says (the below green). Its all kind of contradicting no? The club itself would not be the cause but the grass would be. This is why the sub rule (18 2b/5) in my open exists. But it doesnt seem to cover the situation as all it does is refer back to 2b. They create the sub rule (2b/5) for the situation because 2a doesnt answer it but then dont answer the issue and refer it back to 2a again.

I guess it would have to be a penalty but I also again ask on another note how are you guys addressing the ball without making it move in plush, heavy rough. i am sure it happens now and then. What can you do? We are not pros. Holding the club out of the rough so nothing moves is not easy for ball striking, we dont stand a better chance at a good strike.

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment a. General

Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
• lifts or moves the ball,
• touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or
• causes the ball to move, or
(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke

 

[Daddio]

I agree that rule can be confusing but bottom line is I believe most would simply 'hover' the club head clear of the grass when presented with that kind of lie regardless if the penalty applied or not. Just the risk of triggering the the ball to potentially move during the stroke causing poor contact (or even missing it completely) would be enough for most of us to play it safe rather than ground the club.

 

[blugold]

Ok sounds ok but here is (2a)
Notice the part - "except in the act of addressing the bal" But I guess that means if the club touches it. Sounds off to me because that would mean you can accidently touch it with the club and cause it to move while in the act of addressing it but if the grass you move as you place the club while in the act to address it causes it to move it is a penalty? But then its not a penalty under (2b/5) as long as you have not yet grounded the club but is one under 2a.

But 2a says (the below green). Its all kind of contradicting no? The club itself would not be the cause but the grass would be. This is why the sub rule (18 2b/5) in my open exists. But it doesnt seem to cover the situation as all it does is refer back to 2b. They create the sub rule (2b/5) for the situation because 2a doesnt answer it but then dont answer the issue and refer it back to 2a again.

I guess it would have to be a penalty but I also again ask on another note how are you guys addressing the ball without making it move in plush, heavy rough. i am sure it happens now and then. What can you do? We are not pros. Holding the club out of the rough so nothing moves is not easy for ball striking, we dont stand a better chance at a good strike.

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment a. General

Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
• lifts or moves the ball,
• touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or
• causes the ball to move, or
(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke

I hover the head a little above the grass. I do it in bunkers all the time.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

There is no rule that you have to ground a club. If your ball is sitting up in the rough and looks like it might move while at address, don't sole the club.

My first thought as well. I play a links style course and we get into lots of situations where you never want to ground your club even though you could. This is in the deep heather. It would be no different in the rough.

 

[rollin]

I hover the head a little above the grass. I do it in bunkers all the time.

That's true, I didn't really think of that one as it would be similar. Except in a bunker you can still get the club head very close to the ball or area of sand behind the ball you want to strike. So you can almost ground the club and basically address the swing with the club head much lower than the equator of the ball which gives you much better reference of judgment to make the swing. Unless of course your hitting a fried egg lol and we all been there too. But all in all its not imo an easy shot for most people when (before swinging) they cant set themselves at address with the club head at the proper height for contact or arc bottom etc. especially for a shorty greenside chip or pitch

But I do wonder how many are making the ball move and simply unaware of the rule or ignoring it.

 

[blugold]

That's true, I didn't really think of that one as it would be similar. Except in a bunker you can still get the club head very close to the ball or area of sand behind the ball you want to strike. So you can almost ground the club and basically address the swing with the club head much lower than the equator of the ball which gives you much better reference of judgment to make the swing. Unless of course your hitting a fried egg lol and we all been there too. But all in all its not imo an easy shot for most people when (before swinging) they cant set themselves at address with the club head at the proper height for contact or arc bottom etc.

That is what you should do in general. But the rough is a different story. It is supposed to be difficult to play from the long grass. That's why the fairway is mowed shorter.

 

[Good.Shepherd]

There is no rule that you have to ground a club. If your ball is sitting up in the rough and looks like it might move while at address, don't sole the club.

Yep, and I know players in tourneys that don't ground a club in the rough INTENTIONALLY to avoid just this kind of penalty. They treat a ball sitting up in the rough like a sand trap and don't ground.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Daddio]

But all in all its not imo an easy shot for most people when (before swinging) they cant set themselves at address with the club head at the proper height for contact or arc bottom etc. especially for a shorty greenside chip or pitch

It's really not all that difficult to emulate proper contact on full shots and especially on the short chips/pitches if you move just a little bit away from the ball and groove your practice swings so you are sweeping through the rough at the proper height. Most of us do this instinctively anyway, even from perfect lies. We take a practice swing or two close to our ball trying to feel the pace of the chip or pitch. There is normally a safe spot to groove the swing real close by with the same depth rough and sloping terrain. As said it isn't supposed to be as easy as a shot from the fairway.

 

[rollin]

That is what you should do in general. But the rough is a different story. It is supposed to be difficult to play from the long grass. That's why the fairway is mowed shorter.

Yes that is fairly obvious but its already never as easy of a ball strike hence the whole point of having it for missing the fairway and also harder to even get out of some rough at times as we all know. This just adds to it even more so. But this is the game we chose it didn't choose us.

 

[wadesworld]

I think the point has been made through the various posts, but to simplify:

1) Through the green, if your ball moves, it's a 1-stroke penalty (there are certain exceptions, like if you're in the process of marking it). If you can't ground your club without fear of it moving, then don't ground your club. You'll often see pros take their practice swings well away from where the ball lies for this very reason.

2) Gravity can cause your ball to move and that would not be a penalty, but it has to be known or virtually certain that gravity was the cause. For example, if you're in the process of walking up to your ball or moving around getting ready to address it and it moves, I think a rules official would probably say it was your movement that was responsible for the ball moving, not gravity. For gravity to be the cause, there would have to be no other factors affecting the ball.

3) Remember that oscillation means the ball rocked, but returned to its original position. It's hard to imagine a scenario where a ball in high rough would oscillate and not move.

4) The important thing to remember is that if your ball moves, you must replace it. Otherwise you face a 2-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place, rather than 1-stroke for your ball having moved.

 

[rollin]

I think the point has been made through the various posts, but to simplify:

1) Through the green, if your ball moves, it's a 1-stroke penalty (there are certain exceptions, like if you're in the process of marking it). If you can't ground your club without fear of it moving, then don't ground your club. You'll often see pros take their practice swings well away from where the ball lies for this very reason.

2) Gravity can cause your ball to move and that would not be a penalty, but it has to be known or virtually certain that gravity was the cause. For example, if you're in the process of walking up to your ball or moving around getting ready to address it and it moves, I think a rules official would probably say it was your movement that was responsible for the ball moving, not gravity. For gravity to be the cause, there would have to be no other factors affecting the ball.

3) Remember that oscillation means the ball rocked, but returned to its original position. It's hard to imagine a scenario where a ball in high rough would oscillate and not move.

4) The important thing to remember is that if your ball moves, you must replace it. Otherwise you face a 2-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place, rather than 1-stroke for your ball having moved.

Well said but the last part can be an issue. How is one suppose to technically replace a ball that was barely supported by just enough blades of grass anyway? It could be (depending the situation) nearly impossible some times.

 

[wadesworld]

Well said but the last part can be an issue. How is one suppose to technically replace a ball that was barely supported by just enough blades of grass anyway? It could be (depending the situation) nearly impossible some times.

Agreed. Rule 20-3(d) applies though. You would try to find the nearest spot no closer to the hole where you can recreate the lie. If you can get the ball to rest even for just an instant, then subsequent movement is without penalty and the ball is played as it lies, unless you caused it to move. I would think most rules officials upon observing your difficulty in placing the ball, would be lenient about subsequent movement if you're trying to perch it on top of high grass.

 

[Tedfroop]

If the ball moves after grounding the club - regardless of whether the club is still grounded when the ball moves you are deemed to have caused he ball to move and ge one stroke and you must replace the ball. There was a big change here in the rules to say that when you have grounded your club, which includes resting it on the grass until it is supported, you have addressed the ball no matter whether you have taken your stance or not.. Therefore if the ball moves after address (and there is no way to unaddress the ball except lifting it on the green.) and does not return to its original position you incur a penalty.
If the ball is not replaced you get a further stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.

2) Gravity can cause your ball to move and that would not be a penalty, but it has to be known or virtually certain that gravity was the cause. For example, if you're in the process of walking up to your ball or moving around getting ready to address it and it moves, I think a rules official would probably say it was your movement that was responsible for the ball moving, not gravity. For gravity to be the cause, there would have to be no other factors affecting the ball.


Sorry to tell you but wind, water, and gravity are not outside agencies (definitions). This is covered in the decisions and includes a ball moving vertically. The ball has moved if it leaves its original position and stops in a different position no matter which way it moves. About the only hope you have to escape is if a bird, animal, artificially propelled air, or your playing partner or caddy (in stroke play) does something to cause the ball to move.

The best you can do is what Nicklaus used to do and not ground the club. If you don't ground it you just have to get out of the way if it moves so you don't get a penalty for deflecting a ball in motion.

 

[Fourputt]

no there isn't but at the same time they are not considering the club at address until its grounded. So kind of a loop hole I guess. Makes it so you almost cant ground it (like you say) because if you know the ball will move it will then be a penalty. If you slowly place the club down and the ball starts to move just simply stop and pull away and your ok but then you are suppose to then replace the ball where it was. But then the process can continue over again. Its all kind of nutty imo. How does one get the club behind the ball in those situations without moving it? Had this twice the other day while in a charity outing (which was fun till it rained) But on two occasions was in some thick plush rough and there was just no way to keep the ball still while attempting to get set for address.

It's not a loophole. If your action (touching the grass) causes the ball to move, then you will be penalized. The portion of the rule which pertains may be different, but the fact that you caused the ball to move must still be dealt with. If you do not replace the ball, you incur a 2 stroke penalty.

If the ball moves due to the player's action during his backswing, there is no penalty for striking a moving ball under rule 14-5, but he is still penalized under rule 18-2b. This is the only time that the ball is not required to be replaced when the player's action is the cause of the movement.

About the only time you don't get penalized when your ball moves and you are in close proximity to it is when it is known or virtually certain that no action of yours could possibly have caused it to move. If there is any doubt, the player is penalized.

By the way, when the ball is sitting up in deep rough, I don't put the clubhead close enough to the ball to touch the grass. I have addressed the ball with the clubhead a foot away in some cases. It's a good shot to practice.