HBO Real Sports: The Downturn of Golf

[JB]

If you mean golf clubs, you are mistaken. I purchased a brand new set of Ping Eye 2s (3-PW) for less than $450 dollars in 1992. I purchased another set of Ping ISI irons in 1999 for less than $550 (3-PW). Those same type of clubs are closer to $900. Drivers have also seen an enormous increase in price over the last 20 years as well. These increases are more than the inflation rate over that same time frame, plus now they are all made in China. I know you are going to counter with more exotic materials (titanium, graphite, etc.). Most of these products have been in use for over 30 years. I purchased my first graphite driver in 1983.

Really? Interesting...You sure you were buying clubs at release and not after they have seen price drop? The ISI started to come out in 96 I believe.
Big Bertha Irons MSRP $1000
TaylorMade Burner Bubble MSRP $449

I could list them on and on and people can search the archives of the web for press releases on tons of older clubs and see the prices and confirm.

As for the last line, I am not going to "counter" with anything other than actual prices at the time of release. Unfortunately people seem to remember their prices they paid, but not really whether or not they got things far after release. I can list 10 iron sets right now that are less than $600 that have been released in the last 12 months. Just as I can list many drivers that cost $299 brand new right now that have been released in the last 12 months.

 

[drp3434]

Not to mention inflation. Inflate the cost of those clubs back then to today's dollars and they're even higher.

 

[tzeboss]

I think lack of time is an issue. Make 9 holes more available.


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[Blazer]

Build affordable 6 hole golf courses or charge players based on the # of holes they intend to play.

Golf courses also need to recognize the difference that a few players will make v. no players. For example, my home course has a $35 twilight rate starting at 2:00 PM. However, they never drop the rate later in the day. When I play at 6:00 I'm about the only player out there and since I bought a $300 player card my fee is $6 + $10 for a cart. Why not drop the price at 5:00 PM for everyone.

 

[Matthew]

I think lack of time is an issue. Make 9 holes more available.


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I'll 2nd this. I joined a club a couple of weeks ago and have played 9 holes at least 5 times in 14 days. Now, I was already playing the course and consider myself an avid golfer (not good but I try often).
If I had an opportunity to spend half the cost of a round by only playing 9 holes, I would have done so.

 

[fracisco]

The course over in Lakeland? I loved that course!

They were dead the day they decided to keep a trailer opposed to building a legit pro shop. Shame too, as that was a beautiful track.

Website is still up, and the course looked great. http://www.golfbridgewater.com/

 

[JPR1959]

Really? Interesting...You sure you were buying clubs at release and not after they have seen price drop? The ISI started to come out in 96 I believe.
Big Bertha Irons MSRP $1000
TaylorMade Burner Bubble MSRP $449

I could list them on and on and people can search the archives of the web for press releases on tons of older clubs and see the prices and confirm.

As for the last line, I am not going to "counter" with anything other than actual prices at the time of release. Unfortunately people seem to remember their prices they paid, but not really whether or not they got things far after release. I can list 10 iron sets right now that are less than $600 that have been released in the last 12 months. Just as I can list many drivers that cost $299 brand new right now that have been released in the last 12 months.

I don't think we saw prices dip nearly as fast in the past as we do now. Manufacturers are releasing new designs every year it seems. The Ping Eye 2s were around with minor modifications for nearly 10 years. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[teed-off]

I'm not too concerned with where the game is heading, yet. Golf grew exponentially fast during the 90's and early 00's, and no one expected it. When something grows that fast, it's incredibly hard to sustain. The result is something similar to a population curve. It'll reach a peak, some people will leave the game, but the numbers will plateu eventually.

I agree with ^^^^^, many social golfers will leave the game for what ever reason they may have, but the hard core golfer (I suspect most of us here on this site) will stay because we simply love the game of golf. I for one would definitely appreciate the return of the 3.5 hour rounds as opposed to the 5+ hour rounds we have now.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Build affordable 6 hole golf courses or charge players based on the # of holes they intend to play.

Heck ya. My demented billionaire dream is to buy an 18 hole course and break it up into 3 sixes and let people play 6, 12 or 18 based on how much time they have.

Also make it work with the USGA hcps, etc as well.

 

[Barberakb]

Geographical issue at best. There are thousands of affordable courses based on what people define as affordable throughout this country. There are 39 golf courses with in 12 miles of our home and half of them are less than $25 a round right now and at the peak of season, less than $45.

People complain now about the cost of clubs, yet they have not risen in two decades. The cost of golf balls is up, but more choices and technology in golf balls has given less expensive options.

There can be studies done on every facet and each area will have blame placed. The bottom line is golf is a social sport, people are less social now than they have ever been. Technology has changed that part of our lives. But the idea that disposable income is still there for just as many people is just not accurate. At least not in our state or any of the ones we have traveled to hosting these great events.

As people grow with age, things they chose with their disposable income changes as their responsibilities change. With less disposable income, certain things get cut.

Well you are lucky with the area you are in. I only have 2 courses available to play in a 15 mile radius. And one of those you can't play unless you can get on the military base.

 

[sposey013168]

Really? Interesting...You sure you were buying clubs at release and not after they have seen price drop? The ISI started to come out in 96 I believe.
Big Bertha Irons MSRP $1000
TaylorMade Burner Bubble MSRP $449

I could list them on and on and people can search the archives of the web for press releases on tons of older clubs and see the prices and confirm.

As for the last line, I am not going to "counter" with anything other than actual prices at the time of release. Unfortunately people seem to remember their prices they paid, but not really whether or not they got things far after release. I can list 10 iron sets right now that are less than $600 that have been released in the last 12 months. Just as I can list many drivers that cost $299 brand new right now that have been released in the last 12 months.

I remember when I bought the burner bubble it was on sale for 299 in 1995, an SLDR is 399 new right? Heck when you figure inflation taylor made drivers are much cheaper now. And that was before e bay and forums so the great deals did not exist then either

 

[TheShow]

This is a quote from my buddy who's a great golfer.

"The problem the golf industry has is that it grew so fast in such a short time with tiger woods bringing in the young and ethnic as well as adding a big personality to the game that it was missing. Everyone got used to that level of $$ and when the bubble burst everyone is wondering, "what happened?" Truth is it was over performing financially for about 10-15 years.

They need to quit comparing it to what it was at its most financially successful and compare it to what the market really says."

I thought this was an interesting take on the situation.

 

[Trout Bum]

This is a quote from my buddy who's a great golfer.

"The problem the golf industry has is that it grew so fast in such a short time with tiger woods bringing in the young and ethnic as well as adding a big personality to the game that it was missing. Everyone got used to that level of $$ and when the bubble burst everyone is wondering, "what happened?" Truth is it was over performing financially for about 10-15 years.

They need to quit comparing it to what it was at its most financially successful and compare it to what the market really says."

I thought this was an interesting take on the situation.

Makes sense and I agree with a lot of it, the problem now is the owners have leveraged and mortgaged those properties to the hilt and now they can't pay for them because of the lack of revenue lol. They should pay attention to how the Legends in MB is doing,, they are killing it, a free beer, free breakfast or lunch and affordable greens fees, it's usually pretty busy and course conditions haven't really suffered at all.

 

[golfinFF]

This is a quote from my buddy who's a great golfer.

"The problem the golf industry has is that it grew so fast in such a short time with tiger woods bringing in the young and ethnic as well as adding a big personality to the game that it was missing. Everyone got used to that level of $$ and when the bubble burst everyone is wondering, "what happened?" Truth is it was over performing financially for about 10-15 years.

They need to quit comparing it to what it was at its most financially successful and compare it to what the market really says."

I thought this was an interesting take on the situation.

Makes sense and I agree with a lot of it, the problem now is the owners have leveraged and mortgaged those properties to the hilt and now they can't pay for them because of the lack of revenue lol. They should pay attention to how the Legends in MB is doing,, they are killing it, a free beer, free breakfast or lunch and affordable greens fees, it's usually pretty busy and course conditions haven't really suffered at all.

These two are spot on IMO

Golf has grown the same way the housing market, and economy grew on the back of loans/debt that the income wasn't guaranteed for.

All these course were built/renovated using borrowed monies on dollars that were projected not real. So what happened when projections for finding came up short? The courses went bankrupt or sold for far less than they were built for and probably sold again for less than that.

Too many courses, too long of rounds, everyone wanting a deal, longer work weeks, kids in multiple sports, college loans are all effecting the growth or sustainability of the game and course at the current levels

 

[lilbilly]

I remember when I bought the burner bubble it was on sale for 299 in 1995, an SLDR is 399 new right? Heck when you figure inflation taylor made drivers are much cheaper now. And that was before e bay and forums so the great deals did not exist then either

Price may be similar, however I'm guessing they didn't release 3 or more driver models that year.

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[KeyserSoze]

So I just watched it and will add that since Haggin Oaks is one of my locals here in Sacramento, they have 36 holes there and let the foot golfers play on the "lesser" (aka Non-Alister Mackenzie course). You can see them playing over there and having fun and it's definitely all the mid 20's soccer goons rather than golfers. I say if they are having fun, not interfering with the "real" golfers, and helping contribute to the bottom line at $16-$24 per person (this is a City owned course) then let them have it at. I only see the footgolfers going consecutively though, so they must bundle them into a pack together.

http://www.hagginoaks.com/footgolf/

Another city course, Cherry Island, does the same thing.

 

[JB]

If you mean golf clubs, you are mistaken. I purchased a brand new set of Ping Eye 2s (3-PW) for less than $450 dollars in 1992. I purchased another set of Ping ISI irons in 1999 for less than $550 (3-PW). Those same type of clubs are closer to $900. Drivers have also seen an enormous increase in price over the last 20 years as well. These increases are more than the inflation rate over that same time frame, plus now they are all made in China. I know you are going to counter with more exotic materials (titanium, graphite, etc.). Most of these products have been in use for over 30 years. I purchased my first graphite driver in 1983.

Really? Interesting...You sure you were buying clubs at release and not after they have seen price drop? The ISI started to come out in 96 I believe.
Big Bertha Irons MSRP $1000
TaylorMade Burner Bubble MSRP $449

I could list them on and on and people can search the archives of the web for press releases on tons of older clubs and see the prices and confirm.

As for the last line, I am not going to "counter" with anything other than actual prices at the time of release. Unfortunately people seem to remember their prices they paid, but not really whether or not they got things far after release. I can list 10 iron sets right now that are less than $600 that have been released in the last 12 months. Just as I can list many drivers that cost $299 brand new right now that have been released in the last 12 months.

I remember when I bought the burner bubble it was on sale for 299 in 1995, an SLDR is 399 new right? Heck when you figure inflation taylor made drivers are much cheaper now. And that was before e bay and forums so the great deals did not exist then either

Price may be similar, however I'm guessing they didn't release 3 or more driver models that year.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

But that is not really related to this. The conversation was geared around cost being too high for consumers. Releasing more products only brings cost down for consumers.

I quoted the rest to show that.

 

[OkieSpladle]

I'm with the people that have said this is more normal than the crazy growth we had in recent years. One of the things contributing to this (we have seen so many bubbles), IMO, is the demand for growth across all manner of business. While stagnation is a warning sign for some entities, I would argue that it isn't necessarilly death for many businesses. However, many corporately run businesses start making big changes when they see stagnation (or even smaller growth than they would like). This can lead to risk that isn't necessary. It may save some businesses, but I've seen it kill more than a few. Looking for growth rates similar to the past 15 years leads to far too high a standard being set. Sometimes being able to pay the bills and make a steady profit is good enough.

 

[Otis32]

Geographical issue at best. There are thousands of affordable courses based on what people define as affordable throughout this country. There are 39 golf courses with in 12 miles of our home and half of them are less than $25 a round right now and at the peak of season, less than $45.

People complain now about the cost of clubs, yet they have not risen in two decades. The cost of golf balls is up, but more choices and technology in golf balls has given less expensive options.

There can be studies done on every facet and each area will have blame placed. The bottom line is golf is a social sport, people are less social now than they have ever been. Technology has changed that part of our lives. But the idea that disposable income is still there for just as many people is just not accurate. At least not in our state or any of the ones we have traveled to hosting these great events.

As people grow with age, things they chose with their disposable income changes as their responsibilities change. With less disposable income, certain things get cut.

I don't think we are talking the same language. $12-$20 rounds in the Midwest 25 years ago cost $35-$50 dollars now. $250-$500 season passes from 25-years ago cost $750- $1500 now. The growth in the cost of just getting on a golf course to play has far out surpassed the general increase in inflation or income over the same time period. I still interact with a lot of young-to-middle aged people with limited disposable income and this same economic class of people chose golf way more often in 1990 than they do now. Maybe it really is because they are less social but when I talk to them about golf it almost always comes down to the cost. They enjoy the game but the current cost overrides the benefit.

Comments on other points in this thread:

As for taking private or semi-private courses and turning them into public courses with event centers & bars/restaurants. I don't see that at all. The public courses who went that route during the boom 10-15 years ago are struggling big time around here. The non-golf facilities are way under utilized. They cut staff. Cut services. Reduce their commitment to maintenance etc. etc. Yet the golf remains just as expensive and play falls off.

As for golfers expecting/demanding highly manicured courses but wanting low fees. Also not seeing that at all. A few times a year my group or my other golf friends will play a higher end course and we appreciate the care given the grounds and are happy to pay $50-$75 for the privilege. Where the frustration come into play is the $35-$50 a round courses with poorly maintained and inconsistent fairways & rough, ratty tee boxes and patchy greens. It's not that we are too good to play a course like that it is just that we expect to pay an appropriate price for the experience.

Baby boomers with better late in life income situations who have committed to the game in a bigger way or just took up the game late in life IMO are masking a big issue for golf right now. There is a very good chance the next generation will leave golf behind even when their wealth and incomes improve enough to allow them to play or play more. The game just hasn't treated them well enough or given them enough opportunities to learn to love it like many of us did a generation back.

 

[JB]

I don't think we are talking the same language. $12-$20 rounds in the Midwest 25 years ago cost $35-$50 dollars now. $250-$500 season passes from 25-years ago cost $750- $1500 now. The growth in the cost of just getting on a golf course to play has far out surpassed the general increase in inflation or income over the same time period. I still interact with a lot of young-to-middle aged people with limited disposable income and this same economic class of people chose golf way more often in 1990 than they do now. Maybe it really is because they are less social but when I talk to them about golf it almost always comes down to the cost. They enjoy the game but the current cost overrides the benefit.

Comments on other points in this thread:

As for taking private or semi-private courses and turning them into public courses with event centers & bars/restaurants. I don't see that at all. The public courses who went that route during the boom 10-15 years ago are struggling big time around here. They cut staff. Cut services. Reduce their commitment to maintenance etc. etc. Yet the golf remains just as expensive and play falls off.

As for golfers expecting/demanding highly manicured courses but wanting low fees. Also not seeing that at all. A few times a year my group or my other golf friends will play a higher end course and we appreciate the care given the grounds and are happy to pay $50-$75 for the privilege. Where the frustration come into play is the $35-$50 a round courses with poorly maintained and inconsistent fairways, ratty team boxes and patchy greens. It's not that we are too good to play a course like that it is just that we expect to pay an appropriate price for the experience.

Baby boomers with better late in life income situations who have committed to the game in a bigger way or just took up the game late in life IMO are masking a big issue for golf right now. IMO their is a very good chance the next generation will leave golf behind even when their wealth and incomes improve enough to allow them to play or play more. The game just hasn't treated them well enough or given them enough opportunities to learn to love it like many of us did a generation back.

Again that is geography. There are tons of 25 dollar courses which relate directly to the numbers above based on inflation. I mean tons of them. However it will be geographically located based on a number of factors.

just as the part about course conditions. So many places we travel to and certainly in our area choices have shown conditions win out for the dollar. Reviews are readily available now and it leads consumers to certain areas where conditions are excellent.

But lack of funding across the board for people in general takes so many entertainment dollars away. Especially considering that technology can provide so much for the same dollar.

The ebbs and flows of any industry thrives only when consumers spend is being shown here as well

 

[lilbilly]

But that is not really related to this. The conversation was geared around cost being too high for consumers. Releasing more products only brings cost down for consumers.

I quoted the rest to show that.

I get that... This conversation has so many different facets it's hard to keep up with.

 

[gr8dryv]

I don't think the equipment cost portion of the equation is what is keeping people away from the sport. One can easily get clubs on the cheap. It's the cost of the round and the hours lost. I saw some interesting things in this thread about what courses are doing to draw new people...you had me at "free beer". We have a 9 hole course locally that has "glo-ball" tournaments in the fall. It's fun if you have never tried it.
It's the younger demographic that will pump new life and $ into golf, but until they make it accessable that's a ways off. I know the First Tee and other like programs are a good start, but they are few and far bewtween. If the kids are at the course, the parents will be at the course. In my area, I don't know of any jr golf camps. I drive by a few courses on the way to work and the driving ranges are empty. What an opportunity missed. There are also many private/semi-private courses around here that have pool/social memberships. I never see any ads promoting "intro to golf" sessions for parents and kids. You've got that audience in your house, put a club in their hands!
As I type this, so many things come to mind... do we "hard core" golfers want more start-up golfers? To clog up tee boxes, no. To maybe drive DOWN the cost per round due to volume, yes.
I'm never going away from the sport, we'll just have to see the lay of the land as I go.

 

[BIGBALL]

This is a quote from my buddy who's a great golfer.

"The problem the golf industry has is that it grew so fast in such a short time with tiger woods bringing in the young and ethnic as well as adding a big personality to the game that it was missing. Everyone got used to that level of $$ and when the bubble burst everyone is wondering, "what happened?" Truth is it was over performing financially for about 10-15 years.

They need to quit comparing it to what it was at its most financially successful and compare it to what the market really says."

I thought this was an interesting take on the situation.

I have always said this. Then you add that to the dot.com wave, then the whole housing / low interest rates we had, many people who probably normally couldn't afford to play, took up the game, in large part because of Tiger mania. When that wave crashed, you are left with this. Too many people got sucked up in that, while some of us knew that couldn't last. No way were you going to be able to afford a 400,000.00 house on a 35,000.00 yearly income.

 

[esg777]

After being a competitive tennis player and giving that up to concentrate on golf about 4 years ago, I am so bummed I didn't do this earlier. I love golf.

Here are my thoughts on why golf participation is going down:

1. Cost is huge factor because before you get on the course you are spending at least $300 for clubs, balls, shoes etc (and this a low end number, I think the number is closer to $500). You also will be taking lessons which run about $100 an hour here in NYC. Then green fee's which could average about $40 a round to walk. So depending on your income this is not cheap

2. Time: 18 holes of golf in perfect world is 4.5 hours on average but in my eyes rounds are more like 5 hours in my area (which sucks). My wife had no issue with me playing but the weekends are family time. Thank god i have a flexible schedule to get out it least once during the week. If they could find some way to figure out to get the average round at about 4 hours that would be amazing.

3. Golf is hard. If you are good athlete you could pick up other sports pretty easily. Golf is a different animal. Yes, there are times where I walked off the course because i was playing so bad that it wasn't fun, but I came back because I am chasing that perfect round. I think people can be intimidated by walking on the course not being good and knowing the proper etiquette.

It is a great game and when they find the next big american star to rally around golf we start growing. What I though was interesting in the HBO piece was that they didn't talk about kid's that are say 8-15 and what the stats on participation are there. We all know about Rickie Fowler and his following. Rickie has made the game cool with style and his lifestyle. I think Rickie will help make the game cool for the younger generation.

I also think the PGA and USGA need to do a better job marketing the game. They need to make the game less intimidating and more accessible. That was my two cents on this topic. I really love the game and hopefully it will will start growing.

 

[jitzy]

After being a competitive tennis player and giving that up to concentrate on golf about 4 years ago, I am so bummed I didn't do this earlier. I love golf.

Here are my thoughts on why golf participation is going down:

1. Cost is huge factor because before you get on the course you are spending at least $300 for clubs, balls, shoes etc (and this a low end number, I think the number is closer to $500). You also will be taking lessons which run about $100 an hour here in NYC. Then green fee's which could average about $40 a round to walk. So depending on your income this is not cheap

2. Time: 18 holes of golf in perfect world is 4.5 hours on average but in my eyes rounds are more like 5 hours in my area (which sucks). My wife had no issue with me playing but the weekends are family time. Thank god i have a flexible schedule to get out it least once during the week. If they could find some way to figure out to get the average round at about 4 hours that would be amazing.

3. Golf is hard. If you are good athlete you could pick up other sports pretty easily. Golf is a different animal. Yes, there are times where I walked off the course because i was playing so bad that it wasn't fun, but I came back because I am chasing that perfect round. I think people can be intimidated by walking on the course not being good and knowing the proper etiquette.

It is a great game and when they find the next big american star to rally around golf we start growing. What I though was interesting in the HBO piece was that they didn't talk about kid's that are say 8-15 and what the stats on participation are there. We all know about Rickie Fowler and his following. Rickie has made the game cool with style and his lifestyle. I think Rickie will help make the game cool for the younger generation.

I also think the PGA and USGA need to do a better job marketing the game. They need to make the game less intimidating and more accessible. That was my two cents on this topic. I really love the game and hopefully it will will start growing.

Golf in NY sucks and is a completely different animal. I used to live there and agree with everything you said but in all honesty it mostly pertains to NY. Even before the Tiger boom NY was one of the most expensive places to play, sure you didn't have the crowds you do now but it was always ridiculously pricey. I know now I'm at the completely other end of the spectrum living in Florida but unless you play one of the resort courses where people insist on playing from the tips and slowing everything up, a normal round for us is about 3:30 hours.