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Perception vs Reality In Golf Equipment Sales

SuperStroke
I think as THP'ers we are unique in that we get what some would consider "inside information" (not in a bad way) so we are exposed to more.

Normally guys are playing what they see their favorite golfer playing or what was most affordable. What I see the most of is certain age demographics gravitating to certain OEM's.
 
Being at several demo days I would say Company A could be Cobra, Cleveland/Srixon, Bridgestone. Company by could be TM, Callaway, Ping or Titleist. The company A brands produce good and solid products but due to lack of marketing or perception they don't get the business they probably should. Many people don't realize Cleveland sells more than wedges. Because of high profile players the company b brands seem to garner more interest even though some of their products may not be as good as company A.
 
JB said:
I think for the most part this is very true. Especially for the casual golfer. The perfect example of this would be the comparison line between soft goods and hard goods. How many golfers do you know that are 1 million percent brand loyal to a company (fill in the blank) and then only use the Pro V1 golf ball? Or how many golfers do you know that get decked out in orange, or have swooshes all over their apparel, but never try the hard goods? Its very common actually.
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I have to admit I feel like I am one of these folks - my golf attire consists of Under Armour Shorts, Pants, and Short/Long Sleeve Polos, Nike Golf shirts and 1 pair of Callaway Pants.

I have tried nike balls but never fell "in love" with them.

I used to be solely Taylormade everything - now my bag is TMade irons/Putter and 3Wood (3Wood is going out soon - looking at Cobra and Callaway), my Wedges are Vokey, and my Driver is Callaway.

There are brand loyalists however I feel if 1/4 of the population had THP info at their fingertips, views and opinions would drastically change.

I feel like Brad "A" is Bridgestone, or Cobra and Brand "B" is Tmade for sure.....
 
mikeg_74 said:
I think as THP'ers we are unique in that we get what some would consider "inside information" (not in a bad way) so we are exposed to more.

Normally guys are playing what they see their favorite golfer playing or what was most affordable. What I see the most of is certain age demographics gravitating to certain OEM's.
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Yup. Add in how rarely I watch golf on TV (almost never) and that I get most of my product info from THP (& others), and I feel pretty isolated from how regular people perceive golf equipment.

What I think throws me off the most is that it seems like certain companies can say longer often enough that it gets believed out of hand. I played recently with a guy who used a driver that has come out in the past year that, in my opinion, has been touted as longer. He was an older guy who could poke his drive short & straight about 180 yards total distance. I know, however, that this driver is a pretty common one on the tour, including being used by some true bombers. He and I talked a bit about equipment (specifically since he didn't know anything about the Cobra Amp Cell, but said he liked the blue color), and I asked about his driver and how he liked it, and he plainly wasn't impressed that his driver wasn't getting him better distance. I wondered to myself if he had really tried other offerings like the Cleveland Altitude that might have suited his game better. I didn't ask him, because I'm not about to suggest someone is playing the wrong gear, but it really does seem that the goal of golf marketing is to just make your name as prevalent as possible, and to do by getting your gear in the hands of guys who just hit the ball a long, long way...at least that's how it seems. Never mind the fact that those bombers on tour could probably outdrive most of us with clubs from my father's generation.

I wonder what people would think of Cobra products if they knew how good Rickie Fowler's yardage per pound of bodyweight was.
 
This is such an interesting topic. Company A could be almost anyone other than Taylor Made and Callaway. It could even be sister brand Adams based on the profile. As I see it that there is a time in the success cycle of a brand that they have to go for it. That may mean in product development, marketing or a variety of ways. Those who don't go for it when the fire is hot are just as guilty as those who over shoot the runaway as TMAG is experiencing right now.
It seems like the golf product industry was not paying enough attention to what people were saying about either the economy or rounds being down or people not being able to simply buy a game via new product.The course will be corrected and as I have said before the consumer will have some great values.
I agree that what I love about THP is that brands that are nearly invisible to the retail golf world, Bridgestone clubs, Wilson Staff, Srixon,ext are given proper credit in these pages. I go to a lot of golf shops in my travels and it is shocking how much same-ness there is. The small account could have these fresh brands that give them a point of difference from GC or Golfsmith or Dicks.Still they don't support them or try to sell the same brands that the boxes carry and often get earlier. To me that is a nail in the coffin of small retail.I think the trip to Cali will be very interesting.
 
adwillingham said:
I think THP is it's own microcosm of a similar effect. When you look at bag compositions at THP events, I think you see a higher percentage from brands like Callaway, Bridgestone, and SeeMore because these companies support the THP community through frequent testing, sponsorship, and information sharing. Same with Cobra, Cleveland, and TaylorMade to a slightly lesser degree. Conversely, historically I've seen less Titleist, Mizuno, and Ping gear which don't seem to be as involved (although Ping is moving closer to the middle category by the year) with the community for their own reasons. This is probably a bit of supporting those brands that support our event and community, and part having access to information through the forums (directly and indirectly) and simply access to equipment for some brands that the average consumer doesn't have or care to look for. I know my brand decisions have been influenced by these factors.
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I totally agree with this. I think the average (non-internet) golfer plays the brands they sell in big box stores...like Dicks, Golfsmith, etc. I have only seen one golfer playing Bridgestone irons (& he told me they were given to him for free) and one golfer playing a SeeMore putter.

In general, I think the release dates for golf equipment is just too close in that they eat up their own sales of previous released equipment. I guess companies release new equipment to try to draw in golfers with drivers/irons that are 3-4+ years old. For example I played with a guy last week that was using a driver from around 2005....but he was hitting it on average about 310 yards in the fairway. He said he was considering getting the new Ping G30. I said "Why get a new driver...when you are bombing your driver like that".

I also think it hurts golf companies that they are always claiming some new driver or irons goes further or is more forgiving than the last model. In the real world I bet the average golfer can't tell the difference. It's like saying I got some swamp land in FL to sell you lol
 
bobgeorge said:
I also think it hurts golf companies that they are always claiming some new driver or irons goes further or is more forgiving than the last model. In the real world I bet the average golfer can't tell the difference. It's like saying I got some swamp land in FL to sell you lol
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This is why I like the internet reviewers such as Mark Crossfield who put things in perspective a little. If you gave me an SLDR and a Bio Cell, with my fairly variable driver swing, I'd be a salesperson's plaything if I hadn't already had those guys demonstrate that it doesn't make the world of difference. Additionally, the THP testings are invaluable for seeing what various handicap golfers make of the products.
 
Veryslowsnail25 said:
This is why I like the internet reviewers such as Mark Crossfield who put things in perspective a little. If you gave me an SLDR and a Bio Cell, with my fairly variable driver swing, I'd be a salesperson's plaything if I hadn't already had those guys demonstrate that it doesn't make the world of difference. Additionally, the THP testings are invaluable for seeing what various handicap golfers make of the products.
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For what it's worth those two drivers are about as polar opposite as two could be in today's marketplace.
 
JB said:
For what it's worth those two drivers are about as polar opposite as two could be in today's marketplace.
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Hahaha, I would know, I hit them side by side yesterday.
 
I play in a lot of scrambles due to a work affiliation and see a ton of different golfers each month. The majority of players I see are playing with Taylormade, Callaway, and Titleist. I see more Ping than most other brands, but nowhere near as much as the first three listed. I'd say 90% of those I talk to have never been fitted for clubs, and a suprisingly large number never even hit clubs before they buy them. They walk into Golfsmith/Golf Galaxy/Dicks/Etc. and go with whatever the store employee leads them to. Most seem to go to the store for a certain brand or club make/model, and then pick the stock shaft in the flex the employee convinces them to go with (typically regular or stiff). Most don't stick with a specific ball, or even specific brand of ball. Instead, they go with whatever deal they find at the store that week or whatever they are going to get for free at the scramble.

I know the majority of these players don't play often or regularly, but I think they hold the lions share of the market. While your regular players buy equipment more often, there just seem to be far more players that play a handful of times a year than there are players who play regularly (weekly or so). But maybe it's just the perception I get from playing in scrambles or because of the area I live in.

I think if true fittings were cheaper that more people would get fit. I think if equipment and green fees were cheaper, more people would play as well. Time is another issue. And while I like the idea of the Play 9 movement, it typically costs as much or close to playing 18 so people feel like they are being cheated. Paying extra for a cart makes it harder to play too. And while these issues aren't caused by the manufacturers, the manufacturers are certainly affected by them. Maybe they should focus less on selling their equipment and more on making their equipment and playing golf affordable. Who knows, maybe they'd make up the price difference through volume of sales.
 
Very interesting thread to read.

I am a consultant by nature, and deal with process improvement, analysis of delivery channels, etc...It would be interesting to me to see Golf Digest or someone do a consultant-type "track the sales process" for 100 random golfers buying clubs. Track things like what caused them to consider a purchase, how they decided where to shop, did they shop at 1 big warehouse or 3-4 places, how long did they shop (1 day vs. several weeks), did they only try 1-2 brands or did they consider more 4-5 brands?, did they just buy on looks and price or did they actually test the club?

I am guessing it would reveal 2 main profiles: Profile #1 makes decisions quickly, focuses on price and brand reputation, and does little testing. This would be 90% of the testers. The other profile would be the more serious golfer who is the opposite.
And I'm guessing Taylor Made and Callaway focus their strategy to capture Profile #1 b/c its the biggest fish.

These are broad generalizations and I'm sure there are more nuances but my point is I would be interested to see the strategy bear out.
 
fupresti said:
Part of me wonders if companies can be successful in some markets of the country but not others. For example, Ping is HUGE in Phoenix because they are based there. Every other bag seems like it has a G series driver or irons of some kind. However, in all the events I play with THP, Ping is generally very lightly represented. Does this phenomenon actually exist and if so, does it influence overall success?
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I asked my coach about his relationship with Ping and what makes it so popular in my neck of the woods when I consulted him about getting a fitting (he recommended that I go to a Callaway Performance Center, because they would provide a better experience than he could perform). His bag is mostly Ping, and he said he's a certified fitter with them, but the reason Ping is so popular is because he fits about 85% women, specifically wives of guys who have played all their lives and are now retiring to southern Arizona. So they get their wives into the game, and if the gentleman isn't a gearhead, you can bet the ladies won't be. And within what they do, Ping does a good, simple job of breaking down what clubs a player should be using. He said in essence that Ping caters to a simplified fitting process, so when a guy who's never been fitted before starts to lose some clubhead speed, or someone first gets into the game, Ping can make it easy...which is why, as he said, it sometimes looks over-represented in a retirement golfing community.
 
This certainly varies by region and of course access. While living in Bismarck, my group was pretty savvy about buying clubs. eBay, Scheels and such gave us access to many products. Taylormade and Callaway were at the forefront with most golfers in the area. Mostly because they were available at Scheels. The people in our group were more willing to look elsewhere because we wanted stiff or x-stiff clubs. At one point, 5 of the standard 8 guys in our group played Mizuno irons. All were ordered online. With woods it was a grab bag between guys. Pings, Cobras, Nike (for a while) and Callaway were probably the leaders.

With a move to WY things are very different. Seems as though most base their decision on what the club pro carries. Ping seems to be the leader by a wide margin with irons. It seems, within our group, if you're going to spend money on irons you buy Ping. I've seen more Callaway drivers on our course this year, but the pro got a Callaway fitting station. There are still a lot of TMag's offerings from years past in people's bags but they don't have much of a selection of the new stuff in the shop. They have a couple of Adams and Titleist clubs to buy but not much.

The most interesting thing to me is the putters. I've been playing Scotty's for years. Other than my dad and brother in law (they bought because I had one) you never see them. I'd be shocked if anyone in this town has ever tried a SeeMore. It's Ping or Odyssey. We don't have a box store and the closest place with a good selection and the possibility of being fitted in Denver, 5 hour drive. People in this town don't shop. They see something that catches their eye and buy. If they don't like it two things happen. It gets tossed or they fight the club for years.
 
Ping does pretty well in the DC area. Their demo days do well with irons and drivers/woods.
 
I think I am going to go a total different way with the way I see it. The way I see it, perception is that if you see clubs/balls/clothing on the shelves and it is current year stuff then the brand is doing good in sales. The reality is that comes down to price vs availability.

Where I am at right has a bunch of courses within 30 minutes but the selection is poor and the items we can get are usually the top of the line/top dollar stuff that the OEM's want you to buy. Your average golfer (twice a month/high handicap player) just can't afford or justify that $250 for a putter or $900 for a set of irons, so sales start to slump a little.

If it was me, and I know it goes against all money making ideas, but I would make the prices more in line with the product market. I will just Ping as an example just cause I know their products. Their "G" series is supposedly aimed toward the high handicap/monthly player, so why not make those prices reflect their price range instead of the $850-950 range move it down into the $550-650 range. Yes you will lose money in the short time, but with a following beginning you will make it back in the long term. The "I" series is for the mid/low handicap players who now have learned the game and can afford to take a gamble on a set of $950 irons. Then you move onto the "S" and Anser lines where I feel the prices are right for the product and the prestige.

If you start with the beginner players and begin to show them the game can be affordable while using new equipment they will be more likely to keep purchasing from your company and buying the higher grade equipment. Then again that is just my .02....
 
mayday1775 said:
I think I am going to go a total different way with the way I see it. The way I see it, perception is that if you see clubs/balls/clothing on the shelves and it is current year stuff then the brand is doing good in sales. The reality is that comes down to price vs availability.

Where I am at right has a bunch of courses within 30 minutes but the selection is poor and the items we can get are usually the top of the line/top dollar stuff that the OEM's want you to buy. Your average golfer (twice a month/high handicap player) just can't afford or justify that $250 for a putter or $900 for a set of irons, so sales start to slump a little.

If it was me, and I know it goes against all money making ideas, but I would make the prices more in line with the product market. I will just Ping as an example just cause I know their products. Their "G" series is supposedly aimed toward the high handicap/monthly player, so why not make those prices reflect their price range instead of the $850-950 range move it down into the $550-650 range. Yes you will lose money in the short time, but with a following beginning you will make it back in the long term. The "I" series is for the mid/low handicap players who now have learned the game and can afford to take a gamble on a set of $950 irons. Then you move onto the "S" and Anser lines where I feel the prices are right for the product and the prestige.

If you start with the beginner players and begin to show them the game can be affordable while using new equipment they will be more likely to keep purchasing from your company and buying the higher grade equipment. Then again that is just my .02....
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The only problem is that for the golfer who does very little research, game improvement + low prices = lower quality. You can argue all you want, but there are plenty of golfers I've seen who generate very little spin with their irons or wedges but insist on using Pro V1's and insist that they're the best ball because they cost $50 a dozen. Part of the perception versus reality truth of golf is cost equals quality.

Now you and I and most of THP know that's not at all true, but we are aberrations of the golfing universe at present. Eventually we won't be, and golfers will start taking lessons and getting fit and playing from the appropriate teebox, but until then, the rest of the golfing community is going to refuse to underpay for products of good quality.
 
I think sooner or later, the club OEM's are going to implode much like the auto industry. We all know they have long reached the limits set forth by the USGA/R&A in regards to clubs, yet the marked continues to be flooded over and over with "new technology". I don't totally doubt that there are some gains from time to time, but for the most part I think it is just clever marketing. Shafts for sure have gotten better and so have balls, but when it comes to the club heads themselves, I'm not so sure.

I'm also fed up with buying something new only to see the price reduced greatly in just a matter of a month or two from release. Depreciation of current clubs seems to be higher now than ever. My X Hot driver, which of course came out in the spring of 12' for $299. In just a little over a year, I was lucky to sell it for $80 this week. Just look at current prices of new clubs and look at the PGA value guide. Pretty sad.

Sooner or later, it all has to catch up with the OEM's.
 
SO a little tidbit today related to think. The guy I was paired with get to talking about our clubs, and he shows me the set he just got used, Titleist AP1's with graphite shafts. He loves them, and for good reason. I bring up that I was reading this thread talking about how so many people don't even think about Titleist as anything other than golf balls and he said the only reason he knew about them was a buddy of his has the same set and he tried it out.
 
When I purchased my ping set a couple years ago, I was pretty much an uninformed golfer. I did some research on the internet and went to a golf shop. The problem was the shops around my area don't carry many left handed sets, so it was either ping or Taylormade. I am totally happy w my purchase, however, I plan on going to a golftec store amd get fitted so I know EXACTLY what I need and what works best for me, without testing a club (I hate being a lefty golfer)

maybe this plays into effect for people who are purchasing clubs as well.
 
This is such an awesome discussion. I have read through every post and just love the responses. I don't have anything to add, but I feel like I'm back in my MBA program doing a Harvard Business Review Case Study Discussion in one of my classes.

These are the type of discussions that will keep me coming back to thehackersparadise!
 
Tadashi70 said:
The general public really would never know if a company was failing to meet market predictions. The average golf fan bases their opinions on what they see at their local course, in their buddies bags and what they hear from other uninformed golfers.

The golf industry is a tough old bird and a little uptick in the market share is always good and a large drop can be devastating.
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Freddie agreed. The only thing I might add to that is what they (the average non THP"er) sees on TV as well, in both advertising and during tournaments.

Canadan said:
That's pretty interesting. When I look at Titleist right now, I see a sort of cult following. Their marketing is endless on the ProV1 and people buy them because they are so visible on tour etc. There's this strange prestige about playing them regardless of whether they actually suit their games. So I suppose in your structure it's quite accurate, but they have to be losing marketshare to other, more proactive companies. Bridgestone comes to mind immediately.

To the equipment, I just don't see it marketed anymore. Is it that they simply rely on the prestige of the brand? Am I not watching enough TV? There's no doubt in my mind that Titleist makes quality equipment and a quality ball, but I'd be hard pressed to confidently load my bag up with their gear and say I've got the best possible setup for my swing. Less so now than 8 years ago, by your timeline.
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I can tell of only one regular golf buddy of mine that plays Titlest clubs (driver or irons). He is kind of an old school guy and that's what his dad started him on and what he has maintained. He bought a new set (AP1's) recently and said he gave an honest look at Mizuno, Bridgestone and Callaway, but still he couldn't switch brands.

I think most casual everyday golfers view them as "for good players" or not forgiving enough.
 
Boy these replies have me thinking in a ton of different ways. Clearly there is a difference between a guy who likes to play golf and buys what he sees in the big box circular in the paper on Sunday and the folks who read THP.Non THP guy buys what he thinks is good and truth is it probably is pretty good. He may or may not get fitted. Probably not if he goes to Dicks since they fired all the pros.
The THP guy knows product and loves hearing what is coming down the line.In the recent past I have thought the brands not in the national limelight, Bridgestone, Mizuno, Wilson, Srixon HAD to advertise more to get their message out. I am stating to realize it might not matter.With their limited budget and the highly targeted audience they are going after it might not be seen or heard anyway.Again the THP guy will know the product is coming because he is seeking the information.In a world that is quickly becoming more big box in all channels it is very hard for a second tier(Probably not right term) player to get out of the pack.
 
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