Lie Angle - differences in opinion

[stevie-a]

I'm seeking opinions and feedback related to lie angles and what affect adjusting a club's lie angle should be... Reading around the interweb, there are various theories on what should happen when you adjust the lie angle. So I'd like to pose the question to my fellow THP'ers as well.

The reason I am doing some research into this topic is because I have always played a slight fade. Very predictable flight, but on the other hand I struggle to hit a draw on command...regardless of stance, grip, or swing path alterations that I may make. My current irons are bent 2* upright as I am 6'3" and that is how I was fit based on the standard chart/measurements. I am curious as to whether the upright lie angle could be leading to this result. I am a "sweeper" of the ball, so I am prone to occasionally making ground-first contact. Any distance-loss due to ground-first contact is not my concern, rather I am off the belief the ground-first contact slightly opens the face and I end up with shots that fade more than intended. Additionally, I sometimes feel like I am standing too upright in order to have the clubhead lay flush with the ground -- whereas if they were bent flat/flatter then I wouldn't be as upright and my swing would be more rounded...resulting in less fade and potentially a draw.

I found the article below intriguing as it seems to align with my thought process...but of course, anyone can post in the web and sound somewhat intelligent. Soooo, let's discuss.

Many of today’s major equipment manufactureres are trying to correct slicing by promoting or setting lie angles that are extremely too upright. Placing golfers in high upright lie angles causes their swing mechanics to soon become very flawed. It’s been reported that over 80 percent of today’s golfers are playing lie angles that are too upright, yet the industry continues to turn them more up. Many club makers have no clue as to setting the lie angle properly, nor do most teaching professionals. They believe that a lie angle board is the proper way to set lie angles. This is completely a myth.

And speaking of myths, here’s another one: If the tape on the bottom of the club shows hitting towards the toe, the club needs to be turned more upright. False. The more you turn the lie angle upright, the more at setup the right wrist is bowed upwards, causing an improper takeaway path, which leads to an improper swing plane, and thus increased excessive bowing in the downswing. The result is ball contact marks out towards the toe. This happens because at setup the hands are starting too high to begin with.

Also, there’s a popular belief that turning the toe up reduces slicing. False again. Every club has a sweet spot when not shafted. Once a club head is shafted, it now has a completely different sweet spot angle. Put the club in motion and physics creates a “new” balance point for the center of contact. Since the club head rotates around the center of the axis of the shaft, and the head is designed for a specific lie angle proximity, turning it beyond the manufacturer’s design creates the head to be unbalanced during motion. Simply, this means that if the weight is not distributed properly, then the toe will lag behind when in motion, causing the club to never square itself by impact, producing a slice at contact. Half a degree off in lie angle can be, even for the novice golfer, a major problem. Conversely, every club head design is created thru a specific tolerance of loft angle.

Full article/site: http://mikeobarsky.com/why-get-fit/improperly-fitted-clubs/

 

[McLovin]

sorry, but this article seems pretty silly. have you ever been on a lie board with someone bending the club in increments until you get close to tap dead center? and have you done this while hitting balls outside or hitting balls into a sim? the results, for me, have always been watching flight correct itself, with better sweet spot contact and almost always more distance. now, my adjustments have almost always been to go flatter, so i guess i can't speak to the upright citizens brigade. but i can't imagine it's any different.

 

[stevie-a]

sorry, but this article seems pretty silly. have you ever been on a lie board with someone bending the club in increments until you get close to tap dead center? and have you done this while hitting balls outside or hitting balls into a sim? the results, for me, have always been watching flight correct itself, with better sweet spot contact and almost always more distance. now, my adjustments have almost always been to go flatter, so i guess i can't speak to the upright citizens brigade. but i can't imagine it's any different.

Before I do any bending, I'm going to use a lie board and sim. My curiosity is what others have experience post-bending and whether going flatter -- as you've stated above -- provided the results being sought.

 

[McLovin]

Before I do any bending, I'm going to use a lie board and sim. My curiosity is what others have experience post-bending and whether going flatter -- as you've stated above -- provided the results being sought.

yes, it straightened my flight out well. my miss is a draw, though. so I've only bent flat to correct the hook. before swing changes I was 3* flat. now I'm only like 1/2* flat.


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[ChetSteadman]

I did this over the weekend. I watched as the ball flight changed with each tweak. Once the sole was flat to the ground at impact, the ball was essentially flying towards the intended target. I was able to easily draw and fade the ball. Before I got them adjusted (2* flat), it was very difficult to do anything other than a fairly large draw. I could, but I had to adjust my grip and swing.

The fitter looked a 3 different clubs individually-5i, 7i, wedge. The results were consistent across the board in terms of ball behavior and adjustment to the lie angle.

 

[stevie-a]

yes, it straightened my flight out well. my miss is a draw, though. so I've only bent flat to correct the hook. before swing changes I was 3* flat. now I'm only like 1/2* flat.

Not to web-diagnose by intent, you were seeking less hook/draw, whereas I am looking for more... Thanks for responding, same to you Chet. I'll spend some time on the lie board to get the right setup, but it's nice to have a sounding board to hear what others tried before proceeding.

 

[McLovin]

Not to web-diagnose by intent, you were seeking less hook/draw, whereas I am looking for more... Thanks for responding, same to you Chet. I'll spend some time on the lie board to get the right setup, but it's nice to have a sounding board to hear what others tried before proceeding.

absolutely, I was seeking less hook. a good bit of it was my swing and probably still is. but the lie angle tweak was massively helpful.

and I would ask (and offer to pay extra) to have every club tested, not just one or two.


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[JohnSinVA]

Before I do any bending, I'm going to use a lie board and sim. My curiosity is what others have experience post-bending and whether going flatter -- as you've stated above -- provided the results being sought.

You can get all the information you need with a sharpie and ball alignment marker.

Draw a straight line on the ball with the sharpie and the alignment marker.

Place the ball so that the line is facing your club and perpendicular to the ground.

When you strike the ball, the line will transfer to your club face. If the line is not perpendicular then your static lie angle will need adjustment.

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

You can get all the information you need with a sharpie and ball alignment marker.

Draw a straight line on the ball with the sharpie and the alignment marker.

Place the ball so that the line is facing your club and perpendicular to the ground.

When you strike the ball, the line will transfer to your club face. If the line is not perpendicular then your static lie angle will need adjustment.

This is the method I use. I just got a set built and will probably check it this way next time out.

Don't you need to use a dry erase marker though? Otherwise the ink won't transfer? And even if it does, with a permanent marker wouldn't it be difficult to get off?

 

[stevie-a]

absolutely, I was seeking less hook. a good bit of it was my swing and probably still is. but the lie angle tweak was massively helpful.

and I would ask (and offer to pay extra) to have every club tested, not just one or two.

I'm going club by club, so the full set will be checked. It may be a couple days but I'll post my findings on this thread in case anyone else is curious.

 

[McLovin]

I'm going club by club, so the full set will be checked. It may be a couple days but I'll post my findings on this thread in case anyone else is curious.

definitely post the results and good luck!


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[JohnSinVA]

This is the method I use. I just got a set built and will probably check it this way next time out.

Don't you need to use a dry erase marker though? Otherwise the ink won't transfer? And even if it does, with a permanent marker wouldn't it be difficult to get off?

Sharpie works well also. It's pretty easy to get off the club face with mineral spirits or alcohol. For me a couple good divots does a number on them also

 

[sfdoddsy]

According to static fitting charts, I should play a few degrees upright (I'm tall).

After years of left-leaning draws, I recently did my own dynamic lie test using masking tape. It wore out in the heel.

So I had my irons bent back to flat.

It hasn't eliminated my power draw, but in combination with mid-sized grips it appears to have reduced it. My ball flight starts out more right, then draws back rather than starting straight or left and going lefter.

 

[RNG]

I thin whether you need to flat or upright concerns two main issues.

1. How long are your arms and legs - there is a relationship to when you are in your posture as to what you will need. I have short legs and long arms which promotes a flatter lie. I'm 2.5 degrees flat and hit the ball pretty straight.
2. How repeatable is your swing? If your swing hasn't reached a point of some consistency it will be difficult to determine what you need and may change once you do.

IMHO!

 

[tribefan]

There are also other factors that come into play when trying to get correct lie angles for an individual.

Shaft droop, head design (weight placement) and how the shaft is loaded are other considerations that few think about.

Your inability to hit a draw is more swing related than equipment related, IMO.

 

[tahoebum]

I've used a lie board in the past and will with a new set of irons but recently I have just gone by ball flight when getting new wedges. Irons I only buy about once a decade and I normally order them a little flat. Wedges I can tell how many degrees I need them flattened by watching the ball flight because over the years I've probably had 60 wedges flattened.

 

[ChetSteadman]

I thin whether you need to flat or upright concerns two main issues.

1. How long are your arms and legs - there is a relationship to when you are in your posture as to what you will need. I have short legs and long arms which promotes a flatter lie. I'm 2.5 degrees flat and hit the ball pretty straight.
2. How repeatable is your swing? If your swing hasn't reached a point of some consistency it will be difficult to determine what you need and may change once you do.

IMHO!

I'm in the same boat as you with arm length-I have a short torso compared to the rest of me. Puts me flat for lie angle. My swing is also shallow, which may or may not impact that.

 

[majBC]

There is a good article (a little old 2011) on lie angles.
Search Andrew Rice lie angles. He goes into the historical lie angles and why they have been creeping more upright with modern clubs.

 

[Jwb68]

I just had my angles adjusted. I went 3 degrees flat. I'm 6'3 and have very long arms and legs. I also play 1/2 inch over. Straightened out my swing and hitting the sweet spot better. I'm a realatively new player as well and wish I had done this sooner.