Pin placements - when they don't comply

[GoldenBuff]

From the USGA rules:

1. An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.

Yesterday we played 4 pin placements where if you missed the hole, it would roll off the green. The holes were placed in the center of unstoppable slopes, all just 4-6 paces off the green edge. It was brutal. One resulted in a 4-putt for our entire foursome. I don't know if the greenskeeper choose those to be bugger mean or had some legitimate reason (e.g., trying to protect other areas of the green due to rare early playing conditions here).

Does anyone else see this kind of pin placement?

 

[Canadan]

I see it all the time, and bother people on the greens committee at my course because of it.

The problem with that notation in the USGA rulebook is that it's a guideline or suggestion, not an actual rule. While it is one of my biggest pet peeves for how the maintenance crew sets the course, I am not so sure there's much that can be said beyond "that dude needs to get a girlfriend" when we play "Sunday" pins.

 

[GoldenBuff]

Interesting that this is a guideline. This is a new course for me this season, and I didn't see pins like that where i played last year. For someone who is struggling with putting confidence right now, it was no fun. Be below the hole or write off any chance of scoring on the hole.

 

[RNG]

It sucks but there's really nothing to do but "play the course as you find it". At least everyone has the same problem!!

 

[gizmo3putt]

I have 1 course with 1 hole that wouldn't comply, a par 3, 80% of the green slopes back right to front left, and the pin gets put on the right side regularly. We usually try to putt up behind it and let it run down in to it. If you try to putt right at it and come up short your going to have an even longer putt. We've on in 1 and walked off with 6's or 7's Ridiculous!

 

[emart2173]

I hate when this happens and we complain to the course and nothing happens.

 

[blugold]

Yeah, it is a bugger getting a side hill cup. But it isn't a rule so the only thing you can really do is not go to the courses that set up that way. Speak with your wallet.

 

[EaglevsFalcon]

I have a course near me that on multiple holes there is honestly no place on the green where you could stop a putt on the green if you are above the hole. It is beyond stupid.

There have been some pins on my course like the ones you mention but thankfully they dobt do that very often.

 

[cornerjunkie]

There's a local course that I now refuse to play because of their gimmicky pin placements. The course itself is not supposed to be all that difficult, but there are some really poorly designed holes out there and they add poor pin placement on top of that to make you feel like you're putting on the greens at East Lake. If they are going to do that, the course better be in tip top shape to give me some sort of incentive. That is not the case.

 

[StLCardsFan]

I guess it depends on the slope of the green. I've played many courses where there simply isn't a level spot on the green. You just know to stay below and if above, tread lightly. The bigger issue for me is when its a tiered green and the pin is too close to the tier. I understand the challenge of it, but you should be able to putt from above and not have to worry if it goes a foot past it's off the green.

Remember a 2 man scramble I played in that did that once. Our second hole, two shots behind second day. We have 4 feet for birdie, and 4 putt for double. Both of the 4 footers missed and went off the green, putt #2 didn't go far enough and came back to us. Stupid placement

 

[Canadan]

Interesting that this is a guideline. This is a new course for me this season, and I didn't see pins like that where i played last year. For someone who is struggling with putting confidence right now, it was no fun. Be below the hole or write off any chance of scoring on the hole.

Yeah, it's super vague which I think is hilarious considering the arguments many make for altering current idiotic rules like divot/footprint GUR.

The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

I am probably going to bring this up again this year and offer interesting suggestions for application at my home course. I'll create a thread when I receive a response, as I believe this is one of the many elements of golf that could use some improvement to increase the enjoyment of the game. I've also asked them to consider the wind when placing pins as well, which is apparently an enormous ask. Not sure why we trust these guys to fertilize and cut the course but not set pins fairly for members to enjoy.

 

[Mango Smash]

My home course does this all the time. At least 2-3 holes per round are on a slope. Our head pro was doing everything he could for a while but gave up a couple weeks ago. This past Saturday was his last day. Now we will see how bad a shape the course can get in since it will be a while before anyone is there taking care of anything.

 

[rollin]

I can see why its a suggestion and not a rule. There are perhaps a couple reasons. For one thing maintenance. The hole needs to move around and some greens that may be very undulating may only have a couple/few spots that would satisfy such a rule. I know of a few greens that fall into this problem and if the hole was always in one of the 2 or very few flat spots it would work against good greens maintenance. And some may even have only 1 true flat spot to satisfy such a rule. Either way you really cant have it as a rule because imo not every green would always be able to accommodate the rule all the time. But overall I do think the suggestion is often not looked at quite well enough by the greens keeper. The idea in golf is also that a golf hole should (at least from the correct tees) offer a fair chance at par. To be honest, having a hole on a steep slope or on the edge of one is not imo really a fair chance at par. There is nothing worse than barely tapping a putt, miss the hole and then be left with a comebacker that could be 3 or more times the distance you started from. Or trying to come in from an angle where you either hit the hole or are again left with a putt much worse than from what you started. Sure we all have the same problem and its fair in that sense. But I can see how this subject can at times work against what is suppose to be a fair chance at par. Though I don't ever really complain about it much. It is what it is and I have to try to make it.

 

[Snickerdog]

We have two holes on our home course like you describe, one of them is only placed about 3 feet on from the edge of the green and large slope directly behind it, if you go past there is no way to stop the ball.
I always wondered if the pin was on the green far enough to be legal

 

[O'Carroll]

I can think of at least three holes on my league course where the pins are almost always in impossible places. Below the hole you have a chance, above the ball very little (of even keeping the ball on the green). It's frustrating and fun all at the same time.

 

[bodog]

Those pin placements let you know the greens keeper isn't playing golf on those days.

 

[Smallville]

Those pin placements let you know the greens keeper isn't playing golf on those days.

Or that the super yelled at the guy setting pins that day. Our Super usually doesn't do the pins, but he has a couple of guys who do that in the mornings.

 

[Canadan]

I can see why its a suggestion and not a rule. There are perhaps a couple reasons. For one thing maintenance. The hole needs to move around and some greens that may be very undulating may only have a couple/few spots that would satisfy such a rule. I know of a few greens that fall into this problem and if the hole was always in one of the 2 or very few flat spots it would work against good greens maintenance. And some may even have only 1 true flat spot to satisfy such a rule. Either way you really cant have it as a rule because imo not every green would always be able to accommodate the rule all the time. But overall I do think the suggestion is often not looked at quite well enough by the greens keeper. The idea in golf is also that a golf hole should (at least from the correct tees) offer a fair chance at par. To be honest, having a hole on a steep slope or on the edge of one is not imo really a fair chance at par. There is nothing worse than barely tapping a putt, miss the hole and then be left with a comebacker that could be 3 or more times the distance you started from. Or trying to come in from an angle where you either hit the hole or are again left with a putt much worse than from what you started. Sure we all have the same problem and its fair in that sense. But I can see how this subject can at times work against what is suppose to be a fair chance at par. Though I don't ever really complain about it much. It is what it is and I have to try to make it.

I think it could be very easy to produce an instrument that offered degree of slope with the assumption that no hole could be applied to anything greater than whatever makes sense. It would work for well over 90% of golf courses and make me feel bad for the other likely less than 10% who have to play on a course that awful.

This shouldn't be so much about 'flat' as it should be 'not on an intentional tier changing slope of the green' as far as I'm concerned. A well placed pin can be guarded by slopes, but being on one so people have to lag putt from four feet may as well come with a windmill and some clown shoes.

 

[Thechosen1]

My home course loves to put pins in ridiculous places. I'm all for "sunday pins" but gotta have a good balance in my opinion

 

[Tom0227]

As a person who places pins on a course during the summer, I have to say that when doing so I try to look at it from a golfers point of view and see if its acceptable. I like to think that 99% of the ones I've placed are, but there are challenges to it. You can't place one where an old cup is visible, you're usually only given 1/3 of the green to choose from and I try to stay away from areas of the turf that look like they need some rest.

 

[rollin]

We have two holes on our home course like you describe, one of them is only placed about 3 feet on from the edge of the green and large slope directly behind it, if you go past there is no way to stop the ball.
I always wondered if the pin was on the green far enough to be legal

Legal? well fwiw even the suggested fair putting placement is not one of legality. As far being too close to a greens edge? No one "has to" pin hunt with an approach shot nor imo should pin placement be made intentionally easy for that purpose. A "fair chance" at par wuld still exist with a protected pin but not so much so as with a pin placed on a ridiculous slope.

A well placed pin can be guarded by slopes, but being on one so people have to lag putt from four feet may as well come with a windmill and some clown shoes.

I would agree

As a person who places pins on a course during the summer, I have to say that when doing so I try to look at it from a golfers point of view and see if its acceptable. I like to think that 99% of the ones I've placed are, but there are challenges to it. You can't place one where an old cup is visible, you're usually only given 1/3 of the green to choose from and I try to stay away from areas of the turf that look like they need some rest.

As I mentioned, I am sure its not as easy as we make it sound and would imagine just enough greens can be somewhat of a real challenge when very undulating and also having to consider maintenance. Not saying I like it, and also some workers it seems don't make quite the effort they could to find a better place. but I can understand it may often enough be very difficult. What I hate worse is when they leave a mound around the cup where a 4 foot putt going straight in ends up making a 45* turn 3inches before the cup and then the others in the group do the same thing from any direction.

 

[theoverswinger]

From the USGA rules:

1. An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.

Yesterday we played 4 pin placements where if you missed the hole, it would roll off the green. The holes were placed in the center of unstoppable slopes, all just 4-6 paces off the green edge. It was brutal. One resulted in a 4-putt for our entire foursome. I don't know if the greenskeeper choose those to be bugger mean or had some legitimate reason (e.g., trying to protect other areas of the green due to rare early playing conditions here).

Does anyone else see this kind of pin placement?

The excuse the course management gives is that the course is too easy and the greens are their only defense.

I know when it's going to be a long day when you have pin placements like that. It will really affect pace of play.

72 players x not trying to three-jack = a six-hour round. The funny thing is, level pin placements are still not actually easy, unreasonable pin placements are just much, much harder.

Still, I don't whine, I just play on, and try to be more observant and careful around the greens?

 

[Agent Jay]

Back in the day, during college when I was doing my internship on the grounds crew at South Padre Island Golf Club, I did this once. However, I knew this rule and made sure I was 3 foot from the slope. BUT, my Super was getting calls about the pin placement on number 13, and he changed it before lunch. He came and told me, he wasn't mad. I even sited that rule, but said he had to make it easier for the Members.

It was a two tier green, it was on the bottom tier about 4 foot off the slope to the front and left. It was simple really, as long as you weren't past the hole coming into the green you had a shot. Oh well. We got a good laugh, but it was within the rules.

 

[ntanygd760]

As long as they aren't truly absurd it does bother me much. But I do agree that you should be able to stop the ball at the hole. That said I don't mind pins where if you aren't below the hole and go past the hole by more than a foot it is a guaranteed 3 jack from 25 feet away.