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Cast vs Forged - The Master Debate

SuperStroke
I see what you're saying and I know it's tough to describe feel, it's really personal.

As far as the Maltby, I'm not sure I really trust the rating. I looked through the list a while back and I know somethings in there were just not agreeing with me. I think I even remember them listing the CG7 BP's more forgiving than the Machspeeds. I'd have to recheck but it does work for some I know that. These Lynx Predator clubs were cavity backs at described to me at the time as some of the more forgiving irons. Man, lol. Not to me and even now they remind me more of the Ci7's than Machspeed category.

I did see you comments on the type of shaft and it just goes to show lots of reason some things work and do not. Especially when you match all the variables up with swings.


jnug said:
I would think that if we had the full boat of descriptions then that we have today (SGI, GI, GE etc) the Callaway Big Berthas would fall into the SGI category. Heck I think that is where they are in that Roger Maltby listing of club rankings that goes all the way back to that time. I have not looked at that thing in a long time but you guys probably know the ranking list I am talking about. You might check to see where that ranking iists the clubs you are referring to Yuccas if they are there. I don't know if the list is posted on the Internet any more as even that thing is now so old.

I could not hold greens regularly with the Berthas. I don't know what would happen if i tried to hit them today. I suspect I would have trouble with the graphite shafts as my swing speed is way up from where it was then. Sounds like an anomaly to be sure but it just tells ya' how bad I was then. I had no time to play and figured the Bertha's with graphite shafts were made for somebody like me that had trouble at the time just getting the ball in the air and advancing it and did not see that changing any time soon. I was much worse at that point than I was as a kid as at least when I was younger I had time to play. Did your BB's have the graphite shafts or steel JB? I suspect you were a good enough player to justify the steel shafts. Do you still have them? I still have mine but then again I still have the Ben Hogan blades I played when I was much much younger. The Hogens look pretty rough today. I saw a posted picture from a collector who obviously keeps the clubs for collection purposes and I have to admit I felt pretty bad about how mine look.

Sorry if I sounded contradictory Yuccas. I did not mean to. I was trying to focus on what the term clicky meant and implied and was trying to separate it from club types. That said I don't think there are blades that would be referred to that way. Why would a maker make a blade with a hot face? Not even sure he could.

One thing I should clarify is this thing of feel at least in my opinion. More feel is not necessarily a good thing. I don't think it is something you could categorize as good or bad. There is not good feel or bad feel. There is only more feel or less feel with more not always being a good thing. More might be a good thing if you want it and want to be able to use it.
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wow the Machspeeds are in that list. So does that mean they are still updating it and still posting to this day?
 
Yeah it had the CG7 BP's. Malty playability rating right?
jnug said:
wow the Machspeeds are in that list. So does that mean they are still updating it and still posting to this day?
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Yup thats the one. I thought that one died long ago. I do think it is an OK idea that needs to be updated. I am just not sure that the rating system can cover everything that is out there now. I think it was OK for when it was first developed and maybe five years after that and probably did a decent enough job at what it was trying to accomplish for clubs of that era and before. If it has not changed at all that might not be right. I will have to take a look and see if they have tried to update the rating system itself at all.
 
I will admit my bad! The ratings weren't the issue I had. It was another part. Which Ill get into. The Machspeeds had a MPF of 755 and the CG7's a 739. But both were listed as SGI. That was the thing I was thinking. I apologize for mispeaking.

Sorry for getting off topic too!

But it really shows how different everyones opinions are.
 
Jnug,
My question to you, is with all the comparisons, what GI or SGI have you played for a length of time? Because I am not seeing those results at all.
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Rats, JB there were so many threads in between I just missed answering this question completely. I have not played any GI or SGI clubs in years and years. I have taken numbers of them out to the range in the last year just for the fun of hitting them....all of the Mizunos.....the TM's...... the Callaways and the Clevs to be specific and a couple of the Titleists, mainly because I love to hit irons. But you really only get to see how you are hitting the ball at the range. You really don't get to see what the ball is doing when it hits the ground. We don't have any ranges here that will tell you anything about what will happen when the ball hits the ground. In fact some of our ranges are cut out of the woods and there isn't even a flat surface out there.
 
BigLeftyinAZ said:
I had an interesting convo with a gentlemen that came into the store today.I learn he use to work in a steel mill for many years ,which got me into asking about forging and casting.I really found his answers intriguing ,but I don't know how much of what he said is accurate.

We spoke of casting vs forging and if someone can tell/feel the difference

He also said that there are not many metals that can be used both ways,forged or casting

Cast (Cast Irons, Investment Cast) A process of manufacturing club heads where stainless steel (containing varying amounts of nickel) is poured into a mold in molten state and removed as one piece.

Forging Producing a golf club head from a series of forging dies stamping the head to final shape. Forged heads are made of softer metals than cast heads and require hand finishing and chrome plating.

1. Softer Zinc and Aluminum heads are great inexpensive game entry clubs. As your game improves you will likely need to upgrade.

2. 431 Stainless Steel and 17-4 Stainless Steel is about the best metal for irons, lies are easily adjusted, feel is improved and forgiveness is better.

3. 17-4 Stainless Steel and 15-5 Stainless Steel is about the only option for fairway woods since it is structurally stronger and creates more ball compression and in the end, better distance. 17-4 also works well in iron sets.

4. Maraging Metal is less common, but is the highest performing stainless steel in the game. Maraging Metal is primarily used in the face plates of those clubs.

5. Nothing matches the aspects Titanium gives you in drivers. Distance, feel, and accuracy just can't be matched by stainless steel

6. steel used in casting is considered brittle and can't be used in forging

7. Forging isn't about how many times it is strike,but the amount of PSI is used.He claimed that companies who claim we strike it 3x is all BS.The more you strike metal the more it becomes brittle



While cast iron, which contains amounts of carbon varying from 2 to 4 percent is relatively hard, mild steel with low carbon concentration (0.1% - 0.3%) is soft, and therefore used for forged iron club-heads. Traditionally, forged irons are plated with chromium (Cr) for the rust protection; however, for a softer feel nickel (Ni) plating has become popular recently. Also, stainless steel such as SUS 630 (17% Cr, 4% Ni) , which is often called 17-4 steel, used first by Ping for the famous cavity-back cast irons, is widely used for both irons and woods. SUS 304 (18% Cr, 8% Ni) another stainless steel, which is softer than SUS 630, is also used for cast irons. Clubs made of SUS 304 provide much softer feel, and are even bendable. C450 stainless steel is introduced recently by Taylor Made (SuperSteel) is considered to be stronger that the foregoing stainless steels, which allows the thinner wall design.


Why the big mystique about forged clubs? One, all of the hand operations lend an aura of "uniqueness" to each head. The fact that forged clubs are made from softer steels leads some players to believe they feel softer when they strike the ball. (Actual player tests have proven this not to be the case though.) All forgings until the 1980's were blade style forgings; better players are able to "work" the ball with blades as compared to cavity backs. As forged irons are chrome plated; the "look" of the club makes them be perceived as expensive products. Most tour players, until just this past decade have extensively favored forged head, adding to their mystique. Plus, since forged heads are more expensive than cast heads (labor, raw material cost, plating), they are perceived as being "better" as a result! In all actuality, a ball struck with a forged head and a cast head will yield identical results.

While machines are able to discern these hardness differences, actual golfers are not sensitive enough to tell the difference. Many players may say that they can surely tell a club is forged versus cast, but what they are most likely feeling is the head design rather than the metal composition of the head.

These are his words
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JB said:
These were his words? We have received a few messages that this is a cut and paste (in segments) from another website. (as well as another forum)

I have reached out to one of the websites to clarify and just want to make sure that THP gives credit where it is due (as we have ALWAYS asked for).
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TC said:
well, since Big Lefty won't answer for you, here are the necessary links:

http://www.purelygolf.com/E/Materials.htm

http://golfopinions.com/community/index.php?topic=408093.0


i guess he was an "interesting" gentleman that came into his store, b/c he seems to be two different people, haha.

please include links to give credit to where credit is due in the future.
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JB said:
Okay, thank you for the clarification. Now that I am reading those, it does appear as though much of the material written is exactly word for word from those sites.

Now I am really confused. Did a person come into the store and give some info for the top half that was clearly typed out? Or did someone come in and give info and then a forum member took that info and spun it into what came from other sites while doing research? Or did the author of those sites (1 or 2 people) come in to the posters store and immediately engage in this conversation? Im so confused.

Twice in one thread. Who woulda thunk it?
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SethO said:
<rant>
Plagiarism. This word produces a deathly fright inside me (being an English major for 2 years of school and then making it my minor will produce this reaction). This, to me, is one of the worst things a person can do that does not physically/emotionally harm another. There is absolutely no excuse for taking someone's intellectual property and claiming it as your own or misrepresenting the source. What Big Lefty did would have gotten him expelled and many tens of thousands of dollars would have been down the drain.
</rant>

To stay on topic, I nave never hit a forged club that had the exact same design as a cast club, so I would feel that it is comparing apples to oranges.
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Smallville said:
I had this done to me in Junior High School. Someone stole an important paper I wrote straight off the teacher's desk, copied it and put his name on it. Luckily the teacher knew my writing style and gave me my A for the paper anyway. Never heard what happened to the thief. In this day, it seems finding a published original would be so easy that someone wouldn't attempt something like that.

Oops, back on topic.
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Got an interesting email from the writer of these thoughts (the original publisher) that said he would be putting together a post in regards to what transpired here. I will pass that along when we receive it.
 
JB said:
Got an interesting email from the writer of these thoughts (the original publisher) that said he would be putting together a post in regards to what transpired here. I will pass that along when we receive it.
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Now that's a post I am looking forward too. Hopefully it involves more than just a response to the situation - but also another viewpoint in the debate as a whole.


Tapatalking
 
JB said:
Got an interesting email from the writer of these thoughts (the original publisher) that said he would be putting together a post in regards to what transpired here. I will pass that along when we receive it.
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wow, can't wait to see what he says.
 
JB said:
Got an interesting email from the writer of these thoughts (the original publisher) that said he would be putting together a post in regards to what transpired here. I will pass that along when we receive it.
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Very interesting. Looking forward to reading a post from the person who actually had wrote that great information.
 
Intriguing!
 
Cool! I am curious as to what they are going to say.


I am a serious THP'r so please ignore my horrid typing mistakes
 
Both interesting and troubling.
 
Although not directly forged vs cast, the new Ricky Barnes commercial with Wilson Staff is hilarious.
 
Thainer21 said:
Although not directly forged vs cast, the new Ricky Barnes commercial with Wilson Staff is hilarious.
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The best part of that commercial is when they show Ricky Barnes and they talk about how Wilson Staff has won more majors than any other company.
 
JB said:
Got an interesting email from the writer of these thoughts (the original publisher) that said he would be putting together a post in regards to what transpired here. I will pass that along when we receive it.
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JB
Did you ever recieve the email from this gentlemen?
 
We had a LONG conversation with Wilson Staff last night at dinner about that commercial. I love it.
 
I liked the clouds at the end.
 
Even though I don't have an opnion about forged vs cast, I find it interesting that my last three sets were forged (MX-200, CB2, I-701). Yet I played BeCu ISI's and Tommy Armour Evo V-31 R.O. "blades" (they're not) for years and loved 'em both. Actually, I still own the Armours and I'll never get rid of them.
 
I find it funny they say it won more majors than any other brand when Ricky has none!

Or could this be a premonition?
 
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