Change the OB Rule?

[tahoebum]

The penalty for failing to carry a hazard is not the same as OB, unless the hazard begins immediately after the tee box, which in that case means you have a poorly designed hole.

Many of the water hazards at the good resort courses here start right in front of the tees and some of these are courses that are ranked in Golf Digests Top 100 list. We have over 3,000 lakes within 30 miles of our home so water hazards are common, often on more than half the holes. Slope ratings from middle tees(6400 yards) are 140 and above at these courses. You would certainly not enjoy them because the hazard is just like having OB and most of the holes have woods on both side where finding a ball is next to impossible as the vegetation is super thick. Here’s a typical hole without water, 227 yard par 3(246 off the tips) The woods are not playable on either side and you are unlikely to find your ball without a machete so it’s basically OB on both sides.

Maybe I have zero issues with the OB rule because I grew up on courses with lots of thick woods and marsh so the possibility of a stroke and distance penalty existed on more than half the holes. I often have rounds where I miss only 3 GIR and two or three fairways but card a double if I make one bad swing. It often makes for par or better score for the day with a double or two on the card.

 

[LICC]

Many of the water hazards at the good resort courses here start right in front of the tees and some of these are courses that are ranked in Golf Digests Top 100 list. We have over 3,000 lakes within 30 miles of our home so water hazards are common, often on more than half the holes. Slope ratings from middle tees(6400 yards) are 140 and above at these courses. You would certainly not enjoy them because the hazard is just like having OB and most of the holes have woods on both side where finding a ball is next to impossible as the vegetation is super thick. Here’s a typical hole without water, 227 yard par 3(246 off the tips) The woods are not playable on either side and you are unlikely to find your ball without a machete so it’s basically OB on both sides.

Maybe I have zero issues with the OB rule because I grew up on courses with lots of thick woods and marsh so the possibility of a stroke and distance penalty existed on more than half the holes. I often have rounds where I miss only 3 GIR and two or three fairways but card a double if I make one bad swing. It often makes for par or better score for the day with a double or two on the card.

Please show me examples of all these courses with 220-255 yard carries over water that starts right off the tee box. If that is so prevalent in your area, then my opinion is that your area has lots of poorly designed golf courses.

 

[OGputtnfool]

@tahoebum, we're gonna need you to put the word out to all the course designers in your area. Let them know that when they design a course up there, they need to plan to relocate the lakes in the immediate area and reroute any streams that may flow into or out of the lakes. Water has no business being on a golf course.

 

[BigDill]

Please show me examples of all these courses with 220-255 yard carries over water that starts right off the tee box. If that is so prevalent in your area, then my opinion is that your area has lots of poorly designed golf courses.

We have at least 3 in my area that I can think of. Hole 10 at Crandon, hole 18 at Emerald Hills and hole 18 at Grande Oaks. All of those are very highly rated courses in South Florida.

 

[MrDC]

I guess it is not a decent shot if you hit it ob.

No, but a lost ball is the same penalty and those can be decent shots, this may not be a discussion about lost balls but I think most agree if OB is changed lost ball will be as well.

 

[LICC]

We have at least 3 in my area that I can think of. Hole 10 at Crandon, hole 18 at Emerald Hills and hole 18 at Grande Oaks. All of those are very highly rated courses in South Florida.

I've played Crandon. The water is a good 100 yards from the tee box, and it isn't a forced carry as it is situated to the right, with the choice to play to the fairway to the left. I don't know the others.

 

[BigDill]

I've played Crandon. The water is a good 100 yards from the tee box, and it isn't a forced carry as it is situated to the right, with the choice to play to the fairway to the left. I don't know the others.

That is a fair point that it is not always a long forced carry, but it is also dependant on where the tee boxes are set up on a particular day. For those who are unfamiliar with the course, the layout is below. sometimes the tee box ends up more towards the #12 par 3 tee box (especially when the par 3 is playing short).

 

[BigMac]

That is a fair point that it is not always a long forced carry, but it is also dependant on where the tee boxes are set up on a particular day. For those who are unfamiliar with the course, the layout is below. sometimes the tee box ends up more towards the #12 par 3 tee box (especially when the par 3 is playing short).

I think I'd have to put life jackets on my balls to play that course!

 

[tahoebum]

Please show me examples of all these courses with 220-255 yard carries over water that starts right off the tee box. If that is so prevalent in your area, then my opinion is that your area has lots of poorly designed golf courses.

Here are some examples. The resort is Cragun's Legacy(36 holes) and they are holding a Canadian Tour event there in August so the design is obviously highly regarded by many.

The first picture is a par three. You can see the back tees that play 245 on the far right. The next tees up play 146ish but a slight mishit is a stroke and distance penalty as there is no drop area.

You can see the 17th and 18th holes at the bottom of the second picture. They both have forced carries off the back tees of about 250 yards and 210+ off the 6,400 tees. The 14th hole on that course also has a 230 yard forced carry from the shorter tees if you want to have less than 185 yards to a very tight green.

The top left of the second picture shows a par 5 where someone like me who hits it 275 tee is left with a 225ish shot over the marsh and the carry is over 200. Numerous times I've lost a ball on my second shot attempting to hit a wedge in the proper place for a layup as there is marsh to the left and the fairway really necks down.

Directly below that hole in pic #2 is another par 4 with marsh right in front of the tee(just left of the green in the middle of the picture) with a 210 yard carry from the 6,400 yard tees.

The last picture is from the first 4 holes at a course half a mile away that is ranked #59 on the Golf Digest Top 100 you can play.

They keep the bent grass greens at these courses running right around 11 on the Stimpmeter but they roll them for tournaments and can get them to 12+. The medalist in a 10 team high school tournament a few years ago shot 3 over par for two days. Courses like these are common because there are over 12,000 lakes mostly in the Northern part of Minnesota. I've always thought of OB, lost ball, and these common forced carries with marsh/lake right in front of the tee or approach shot as the same penalty because they are all stroke and distance. I would lose a ball about every 12 rounds at my club in California and I'm averaging about 1 per round now that I'm a member at the Cragun's Courses. Most of my buddies who are 10-15 handicappers will lose 5-10 balls if they don't have their best stuff that day playing here.

I'm guessing you wouldn't enjoy these courses but many of us do, lol.

 

[radiman]

Many of the water hazards at the good resort courses here start right in front of the tees and some of these are courses that are ranked in Golf Digests Top 100 list. We have over 3,000 lakes within 30 miles of our home so water hazards are common, often on more than half the holes. Slope ratings from middle tees(6400 yards) are 140 and above at these courses. You would certainly not enjoy them because the hazard is just like having OB and most of the holes have woods on both side where finding a ball is next to impossible as the vegetation is super thick. Here’s a typical hole without water, 227 yard par 3(246 off the tips) The woods are not playable on either side and you are unlikely to find your ball without a machete so it’s basically OB on both sides.

Maybe I have zero issues with the OB rule because I grew up on courses with lots of thick woods and marsh so the possibility of a stroke and distance penalty existed on more than half the holes. I often have rounds where I miss only 3 GIR and two or three fairways but card a double if I make one bad swing. It often makes for par or better score for the day with a double or two on the card.

View attachment 8952391

What course is this?

Edit: After seeing your other post, it has to be Cragun's. That par 3 is a monster. Was playing into a 20 mph wind when I came through. That course is a great example of stroke and distance penalties when you're not OB. Beautiful courses. But, you have to be accurate off the tee.

 

[Canadan]

Disagree. I definitely play away from OB when it is within 15 yards of the edge of the fairway and I rarely aim away from a lateral hazard to the same degree. OB costs me two shots and dumping it in a lateral hazard is only 1 shot.

I would guess you are in the small minority.

Not that people typically aim for anything other than the middle of the fairway, but I'm definitely playing a shape away from OB regardless of what's on the other side.. So I guess tahoebum isn't exactly in the 'small' minority here.

 

[radiman]

Here are some examples. You can see the 17th and 18th holes at the bottom of the second picture. The course is Cragun's Legacy and they are holding a Canadian Tour event there in August so the design is obviously highly regarded by many. The last picture is from the first 4 holes at a course half a mile away that is ranked #59 on the Golf Digest Top 100 you can play. The top left of the second picture shows a par 5 where someone like me who hits it 275 tee is left with a 225ish shot over the marsh and the carry is over 200. Numerous times I've lost a ball on my second shot attempting to hit a wedge in the proper place for a layup as there is marsh to the left and the fairway really necks down.

Directly below that hole in pic #2 is another par 4 with marsh right in front of the tee(just left of the green in the middle of the picture) with a 210 yard carry from the 6,400 yard tees.

The first one is a par three from the course that is holding the Canadian Tour. You can see the back tees that play 245 on the far right. The next tees up play 146ish but a slight mishit is a stroke and distance penalty as there is no drop area.

I'm guessing you wouldn't enjoy these courses but many of us do, lol.


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This is hole 17 right, maybe 18? I can't remember, maybe there was the extra hole right after it that is throwing my memory off. I played there last year. No idea how far it was from the tee to the green, but I did try to pump one over the water to see if I had a prayer of clearing it, lol. I did not.

 

[tahoebum]

This is hole 17 right, maybe 18? I can't remember, maybe there was the extra hole right after it that is throwing my memory off. I played there last year. No idea how far it was from the tee to the green, but I did try to pump one over the water to see if I had a prayer of clearing it, lol. I did not.

View attachment 8952449

That is 18 at Bobby's Legacy and when I played the back tees last on Sunday the carry over that first bunker was 268.

The par 4 at the top is on the Dutch Legacy and that one plays 465 from the tips and you have forced carries on both shots, lol. You can see the green in the very top left corner. I hope the Canadian Tour guys have to play it like that in August.

 

[radiman]

That is 18 at Bobby's Legacy and when I played the back tees last on Sunday the carry over that first bunker was 268.

The par 4 at the top is on the Dutch Legacy and that one plays 465 from the tips and you have forced carries on both shots, lol. You can see the green in the very top left corner. I hope the Canadian Tour guys have to play it like that in August.

I was trying to bite off as much of the hole as I could and aim just left of the green. It was a pipe dream that resulted in a lost ball. But, I did already play one out in the middle first. I didn't play Dutch. Had time for two rounds and the weather was terrible last Labor Day. Ended up at Bobby's Legacy and The Classic at Maddens. Which is also a nice course. But, I want to say, they're both great courses. I think I had more fun at Cragun's though.

 

[tahoebum]

What course is this?

Edit: After seeing your other post, it has to be Cragun's. That par 3 is a monster. Was playing into a 20 mph wind when I came through. That course is a great example of stroke and distance penalties when you're not OB. Beautiful courses. But, you have to be accurate off the tee.

It is Cragun's. My son shot 88 on Saturday and 107 on Sunday because he was pushing things a bit. 11 lost balls for him, lol. I shot 80 on Saturday a little hungover and 70 on Sunday with a double because I pulled an approach shot from 160 about 5 yards left of the 2nd green and lost a ball.

I'll get in about 35 rounds there this summer and in less than 3 years when my daughter graduates they will become my home courses for 5.5 months each year!! I plan on logging about 120 rounds each summer there.

You can see how close we are(yellow pin) to Cragun's Legacy Courses(red pin). The Classic at Madden's resort(#59 ranking in the GD Top 100) is just southwest of the Cragun's courses. The Pines courses are just at the north end of the lake at the top of the picture and they have 27 amazing holes as well. Gull is a big lake as it's about 13 miles from the bottom of this picture to the top.

 

[radiman]

It is Cragun's. My son shot 88 on Saturday and 107 on Sunday because he was pushing things a bit. 11 lost balls for him, lol. I shot 80 on Saturday a little hungover and 70 on Sunday with a double because I pulled an approach shot from 160 about 5 yards left of the 2nd green and lost a ball.

I'll get in about 35 rounds there this summer and in less than 3 years when my daughter graduates they will become my home courses for 5.5 months each year!! I plan on logging about 120 rounds each summer there.

You can see how close we are(yellow pin) to Cragun's Legacy Courses(red pin). The Classic at Madden's resort(#59 ranking in the GD Top 100) is just southwest of the Cragun's courses. The Pines courses are just at the north end of the lake at the top of the picture and they have 27 amazing holes as well. Gull is a big lake as it's about 11-12 miles from the bottom of this picture to the top.



View attachment 8952454

There are a lot of really nice courses up there. Had the weather not been so bad, I think it would have been a lock to go back again this year (if covid restrictions allow). But, my wife is gun shy now because the trip was cold and rainy. Her and the kids were stuck inside while I braved the weather to golf.

But, anywho, not that it applies to the OB conversation. Didn't mean to derail the convo.

 

[tahoebum]

There are a lot of really nice courses up there. Had the weather not been so bad, I think it would have been a lock to go back again this year (if covid restrictions allow). But, my wife is gun shy now because the trip was cold and rainy. Her and the kids were stuck inside while I braved the weather to golf.

But, anywho, not that it applies to the OB conversation. Didn't mean to derail the convo.

I'm a bit biased as we are planning on retiring up there, but the 6 or 7 of the resort courses are amazing and all are withing 20 minutes of one another. As us Minnesotans know, the weather doesn't always cooperate on Memorial or Labor Day but it's been a great warm summer these last few weeks and it is forecasted to continue. June 10th through Labor Day is usually nice weather and the lake temperature is up above 80* right now. Cragun's Grandview, and Madden's Resort all have fantastic indoor pools and game areas for the kids for those rainy days. There are also a couple of indoor water parks in Baxter 7 miles away that kids love. We vacationed at one of the resorts on Gull Lake at least once a year from 1995 until we finally built our retirement home there in 2018.

It's funny to see the old pictures of the kids because the same families that we've known for over 20 years are still vacationing up there, now at our home instead of the resorts. It's been a great tradition!

My son and daughter in these pictures and their friend Jacob have gone from swingsets to beer pong on their Gull Lake summer vacations, lol. All three from the older pic are at the pong table in the photo from last Saturday. Both boys will graduate from college next May and my daughter the year after that. Time goes fast so enjoy them!

 

[LICC]

Not that people typically aim for anything other than the middle of the fairway, but I'm definitely playing a shape away from OB regardless of what's on the other side.. So I guess tahoebum isn't exactly in the 'small' minority here.

As you would play a shape away from a large pond if that were there instead of the OB.

 

[LICC]

Here are some examples. The resort is Cragun's Legacy(36 holes) and they are holding a Canadian Tour event there in August so the design is obviously highly regarded by many.

The first picture is a par three. You can see the back tees that play 245 on the far right. The next tees up play 146ish but a slight mishit is a stroke and distance penalty as there is no drop area.

You can see the 17th and 18th holes at the bottom of the second picture. They both have forced carries off the back tees of about 250 yards and 210+ off the 6,400 tees. The 14th hole on that course also has a 230 yard forced carry from the shorter tees if you want to have less than 185 yards to a very tight green.

The top left of the second picture shows a par 5 where someone like me who hits it 275 tee is left with a 225ish shot over the marsh and the carry is over 200. Numerous times I've lost a ball on my second shot attempting to hit a wedge in the proper place for a layup as there is marsh to the left and the fairway really necks down.

Directly below that hole in pic #2 is another par 4 with marsh right in front of the tee(just left of the green in the middle of the picture) with a 210 yard carry from the 6,400 yard tees.

The last picture is from the first 4 holes at a course half a mile away that is ranked #59 on the Golf Digest Top 100 you can play.

They keep the bent grass greens at these courses running right around 11 on the Stimpmeter but they roll them for tournaments and can get them to 12+. The medalist in a 10 team high school tournament a few years ago shot 3 over par for two days. Courses like these are common because there are over 12,000 lakes mostly in the Northern part of Minnesota. I've always thought of OB, lost ball, and these common forced carries with marsh/lake right in front of the tee or approach shot as the same penalty because they are all stroke and distance. I would lose a ball about every 12 rounds at my club in California and I'm averaging about 1 per round now that I'm a member at the Cragun's Courses. Most of my buddies who are 10-15 handicappers will lose 5-10 balls if they don't have their best stuff that day playing here.

I'm guessing you wouldn't enjoy these courses but many of us do, lol.


View attachment 8952446View attachment 8952445View attachment 8952444

Other than the par-3 and one other, I'm not seeing forced carries. I'm seeing risk-reward carries with the option to play away from the risk over the fairways. As for the par-3, 99% of golfers will play it at 145 or under.

The one hole that looked like a 200+ yard forced carry over marsh right off the tee- that is a poorly designed hole, IMO.

 

[tahoebum]

Other than the par-3 and one other, I'm not seeing forced carries. I'm seeing risk-reward carries with the option to play away from the risk over the fairways. As for the par-3, 99% of golfers will play it at 145 or under.

The one hole that looked like a 200+ yard forced carry over marsh right off the tee- that is a poorly designed hole, IMO.

You may not be seeing the tiny tee boxes in the images above but I'll map three more out from the above images that you are likely not seeing. Trust me, there are plenty of stroke and distance penalties all over all three of those courses. There are lots of forced carries and/or woods that are not in anyway playable or conducive to finding a ball. Many of the lost balls we had last weekend were less than a yard into the marsh/water hazard and we saw exactly where they went but couldn't find them. Woods and water line each side of at least 13 or 14 holes on each course that make placing even a 4 or 5 iron off the tee on a par 4 difficult for a very straight pllus index golfer like me.

The par 3 second tee is at the top of the screen on the upper left and the green is 155 yards away over the marsh. The smallest tee box is the ladies tee and the men's regular tees have marsh 6 or 7 yards in front of the tee. If you bail out to the left you can easily lose a ball in the swampy, thick woods just short and left of the green. The upper right is the 3rd tee box and again the marsh is just a few yards in front of the white 6100 tees with a forced carry of over 180 yards. Most people play the 6400 tees and the carry is 200 yards often into a stiff south wind. A 200 yard shot to the right side of the fairway would leave you blocked out by the large trees so you need to place your shot very carefully. Of course anything left, right or long on the approach is in the lake. Today the wind was 18 mph gusting to 26.

I could give you another 25 or 30 examples from these three courses but I've already spent too much time on this and I'm now heading out on the lake with my family.


Below the tee box is on the far lower right and the fairway is over 200 yards away in the middle-lower part of the frame. Some days they play the green on the left(anything short or a few yards left is in the hazard) and some days it's the green on the upper left corner which is 435 yards off the second to back tees(6400) that nearly every male plays. If you fail to clear the marsh on your second shot that is 185 yards away after a 250 yard drive, your drop is about 135 yards from the green but over the marsh again. I'm not going to map out each one for you but they would be glaringly obvious if you played the course.

 

[LICC]

You may not be seeing the tiny tee boxes in the images above but I'll map three more out from the above images that you are likely not seeing. Trust me, there are plenty of stroke and distance penalties all over all three of those courses. There are lots of forced carries and/or woods that are not in anyway playable or conducive to finding a ball. Many of the lost balls we had last weekend were less than a yard into the marsh/water hazard and we saw exactly where they went but couldn't find them. Woods and water line each side of at least 13 or 14 holes on each course that make placing even a 4 or 5 iron off the tee on a par 4 difficult for a very straight pllus index golfer like me.

The par 3 second tee is at the top of the screen on the upper left and the green is 155 yards away over the marsh. The smallest tee box is the ladies tee and the men's regular tees have marsh 6 or 7 yards in front of the tee. The upper right is the 3rd tee box and again the marsh is just a few yards in front of the white 6100 tees with a forced carry of over 180 yards. Most people play the 6400 tees and the carry is 200 yards often into a stiff south wind. Today it was 18 mph gusting to 26.
View attachment 8952526

Here the tee box is on the far lower right and the fairway is over 200 yards away in the middle-lower part of the frame. Some days they play the green on the left and some days it's the green on the upper left which is 435 yards off the second to back tees that nearly every male play. If you fail to clear the marsh on your second shot that is 185 yards away after a 250 yard drive, your drop is about 135 yards from the green but over the marsh again. I'm not going to map out each one for you but they would be glaringly obvious if you played the course.

View attachment 8952527

Thanks for the elaborations. A par-3 is not relevant to saying a 220-yard carry over water is just like OB. The second one is a bad hole design. The last one is also not the same as OB, as you pick up 50 yards on your drop and go from hitting 6-iron to hitting pitching wedge or 9-iron. That is far less of a penalty than stroke and distance from 185.

 

[radiman]

 

[tahoebum]

Thanks for the elaborations. A par-3 is not relevant to saying a 220-yard carry over water is just like OB. The second one is a bad hole design. The last one is also not the same as OB, as you pick up 50 yards on your drop and go from hitting 6-iron to hitting pitching wedge or 9-iron. That is far less of a penalty than stroke and distance from 185.

Lol, that par 3 doesn't have a drop area so the drop is at 140 yards instead of 155. The second hole didn't screw up the #59 ranking on Golf Digest's top 100 that you can play. The 3rd one you have a forced carry over 200 yards and get stroke and 135/185 if you miss your second shot. That works out to stroke plus 73% of the distance. Not many golfers will get up and down often from 135 yards so it's still a double bogey if you hit your approach 10 yards short of the green.

I'd love to take you out there and watch you lose a bunch of balls. The bottom line is I'm a plus index for most of the last 37 years and I make a double bogie or two almost every round on those courses because I hit one iron shot maybe 5 or 10 yards left, right, or short of the green. My last three rounds at those courses all had a double bogey on the card and my scores were 70, 69, and 71. I see my buddies that are solid 80's golfer have stroke and distance penalties(or stroke plus 73% distance penalties) at least a half a dozen times on a slightly off day.

We will have to agree to disagree. No surprise!

 

[LICC]

Lol, that par 3 doesn't have a drop area so the drop is at 140 yards instead of 155. The second hole didn't screw up the #59 ranking on Golf Digest's top 100 that you can play. The 3rd one you have a forced carry over 200 yards and get stroke and 135/185 if you miss your second shot. That works out to stroke plus 73% of the distance. Not many golfers will get up and down often from 135 yards so it's still a double bogey if you hit your approach 10 yards short of the green.

I'd love to take you out there and watch you lose a bunch of balls. The bottom line is I'm a plus index for most of the last 37 years and I make a double bogie or two almost every round on those courses because I hit one iron shot maybe 5 or 10 yards left, right, or short of the green. My last three rounds at those courses all had a double bogey on the card and my scores were 70, 69, and 71. I see my buddies that are solid 80's golfer have stroke and distance penalties(or stroke plus 73% distance penalties) at least a half a dozen times on a slightly off day.

We will have to agree to disagree. No surprise!

You are mixing lost ball examples with your argument for OB being an irrationally harsh penalty. And Golf Digest rankings don't mean much to me. Those are based on many things beyond the quality of the golf holes. I can probably name a dozen courses not in that ranking that are better than those in it. A 220-yard forced carry starting immediately off the tee box is bad design.

 

[Elbow Jobertski]

Losing a ball and getting a penalty is plenty of deterrent. Adding an additional penalty is just irrational.

There are people for whom the far greater penalty for hitting it OB causes them to play shots with less risk of going OB. Which makes it rational.

Me for instance. With OB left I'm not hitting driver because my driver miss is often slinging left and I know if that happens I'm going to be 3 from the tee and no guarantee I don't do it again and take a really silly number. So I play an iron and go from there. Avoiding the penalty lowers my average score.

If it were a penalty area I'd just lol driversmash because worst case now is I'm dropping and hitting 3 closer to the hole with no worry of having to hit another drive.

(the local rule of 2 strokes / drop in fairway rule changes this a bit by taking out the fear of hitting multiple balls OB, but not that much)