body rotation to square the face

[Carolina Golfer]

I'm not sure who shared this advice (I normally save the good ones and refer back to it)

On backswing you roll the club inside
lead arm separates from body
arms overswing.
Downswing, you throw the club and stand up with no body rotation to square the face.
Pretty much every amateur has similar faults.

This one seems very important: Downswing, you throw the club and stand up with no body rotation to square the face. Today, I practiced squaring the club face with a body rotation and it worked out well. Thoughts?

 

[rocullen]

I'm not sure who shared this advice (I normally save the good ones and refer back to it)

On backswing you roll the club inside
lead arm separates from body
arms overswing.
Downswing, you throw the club and stand up with no body rotation to square the face.
Pretty much every amateur has similar faults.

This one seems very important: Downswing, you throw the club and stand up with no body rotation to square the face. Today, I practiced squaring the club face with a body rotation and it worked out well. Thoughts?

different swings, different methods.

Ever heard of a "block"?

I said the lower body helps square the club face on an old forum. you should have heard some of the remarks.
Actually, if the hips don't turn, the shoulders more than like won't turn, so you end up swinging to right field(righty) and the clubface stays square to your hands/setup and you get a fairly straight push. Blocked.

 

[Carolina Golfer]

different swings, different methods.

Ever heard of a "block"?

I said the lower body helps square the club face on an old forum. you should have heard some of the remarks.
Actually, if the hips don't turn, the shoulders more than like won't turn, so you end up swinging to right field(righty) and the clubface stays square to your hands/setup and you get a fairly straight push. Blocked.

So, you are agreeing with a body rotation to square the face? But, the rotation comes from the lower half, not a full body rotation/pivot?

 

[WILDTHING]

Imho if you don't have much flexibility between the lower and upper body , the whole body pivot might be used to increase the force on the lead arm using an 'X-Factor' stretch in transition or early downswing. There might be a bit of connection between the lead arm and your pec from top of backswing to left arm parallel to ground (ie. from P4-P5) but then that 'connectivity' rapidly fades away as the arms start moving faster than the body . I can't imagine that the body is squaring the clubface if there is no longer any connectivity of the arms to upper body from P5-P7 (impact) but rather that the body is getting out of the way to allow your arms unimpeded access to swing to the target .

The squaring of the clubface is really about timing the rotation of your lead forearm in the downswing so that the clubface is square (or aligned as per your intended strike) by impact, but your body has to 'get out of the way' first.

If you stall your upper body pivot in the downswing, the right shoulder might not get close enough to the ball, therefore your right arm/wrist will need to extend to get the hand/grip more in front of the clubface by impact for your intended angle of attack. As you do this there is a natural tendency to rotate your trail forearm which will close the clubface rapidly. There are all sorts of errant shots that can occur because your wrists might 'flip/rotate' too 'early/late' which can cause different clubface alignments by impact, so its not just blocked shots , but also pulled shots , slices, hooks , etc . Then of course you also have to take into consideration the timing of different body segment movements (and the forces they may produce via the hands) that can affect your club path,angle of attack and clubface rotation.


Here is Mike Adams who is inferring that fast hips will cause an open clubface. I'm assuming that quicker the hips and upper body rotate through in the donwswing , the more the hands lead the club (ie. forward lean) , which means an open clubface at impact . For golfers who are predominantly 'spinners' they will have to strengthen their left hand grip to square the clubface by impact. Then he says that for golfers who do not 'spin' but are 'launchers' , one would need to conduct a different test to 'dial' into their left hand grip to square the clubface.




So it's not straightforward to say that the body pivot will square the clubface.

Imho , a golfer with 'fast/medium/slow' hips might still be able to time the rotation of that lead forearm to enable the clubface to be square by impact.

 

[rocullen]

So, you are agreeing with a body rotation to square the face? But, the rotation comes from the lower half, not a full body rotation/pivot?

Yes and no. Yes the body rotation HELPS square the face. No, not just the lower body. Full body. The lower just allows(in most cases) the upper to continue.

So it's not straightforward to say that the body pivot will square the clubface.

Imho , a golfer with 'fast/medium/slow' hips might still be able to time the rotation of that lead forearm to enable the clubface to be square by impact.

Agree with that. All I am say is that if you don't rotate, there is a lot more timing involved and it helps immensely to get that face square without a lot of special timing and the chance for "blocked" shots go up exponentially.

Of course, you can implement other parts to aid or hinder a square clubface

 

[DataDude]

Someone posted this series of articles in another thread here. The series is excellent, but this part of the series has a really good exercise that finally got me to feel a square swing path the way my instructor was trying to get me to swing it. It's about 1/2 way down. Of course proper address and grip are neccasary before doing this.

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf

Leslie King Tuition 3 - First, lets pause to ask a very fundamental question....WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO DO IN THE GOLF SWING?|Leslie King Tuition 3 - First, lets pause to ask a very fundamental question....WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO DO IN THE GOLF SWING?

golftoday.co.uk

 

[razaar]

I'm not sure who shared this advice (I normally save the good ones and refer back to it)

On backswing you roll the club inside
lead arm separates from body

The hands and arms control the clubface, the body powers the golf swing in elite golfers. The average golfer uses his hands, arms and shoulders to power the swing and uses his body and legs as a brace to create the leverage for shoulders and arms. Surely you know this from all the swing threads on the forum.

 

[Acesteve]

i've got a Chris Cumo Swing expedition episode on DRV that I have kept for over a year with a top teacher down in Austin. The teacher breaks the swing into three parts and all three drills are about letting the body help rotate the face properly. has helped me. Especially with the driver. 25 years as a terrible driver and decent iron player. Now I'm decent at both.

To practice I don't need complex theories or moves just need to practice chipping. as soon as I get tight, stop moving my core and start flipping my hands the fatty is so close I can taste it

p.s. most of my playing partners think body helping close the face means getting all loose in the lower body like break dancing in the 1980's. It doesn't. The firm left arm that does not let go of the club at the top or overswing helps get the lower body involved. Sorry. seeing my playing partners 2 weeks ago hitting balls of the hosel related to way too much motion in his swing

 

[MOS 67Y]

i've got a Chris Cumo Swing expedition episode on DRV that I have kept for over a year with a top teacher down in Austin. The teacher breaks the swing into three parts and all three drills are about letting the body help rotate the face properly.

Hall-of-Fame teacher Chuck Cook. multiple major-winners over the years, including Tom Kite, Payne Stewart and Jason Dufner.

Best episode by far, I still use his drills when I feel out of sync. Helped settle me down and did wonders for my swing.
The three, just resonated with me.

To the Wall.
To the Ball.
To the Target.

Thanks for sharing your post.

 

[Carolina Golfer]

The hands and arms control the clubface, the body powers the golf swing in elite golfers. The average golfer uses his hands, arms and shoulders to power the swing and uses his body and legs as a brace to create the leverage for shoulders and arms. Surely you know this from all the swing threads on the forum.

Actually, I did not know this and I am well read in these forums . But, it's good to know us ams do it differently and maybe it's ok to have a upper body driven swing. Should we be bracing in both the backswing and downswing (we sling the club)?

 

[Acesteve]

Hall-of-Fame teacher Chuck Cook. multiple major-winners over the years, including Tom Kite, Payne Stewart and Jason Dufner.

Best episode by far, I still use his drills when I feel out of sync. Helped settle me down and did wonders for my swing.
The three, just resonated with me.

To the Wall.
To the Ball.
To the Target.

Thanks for sharing your post.

me too

I watch it monthly and work on drills routinely to warm up

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

I'm not sure who shared this advice (I normally save the good ones and refer back to it)

On backswing you roll the club inside
lead arm separates from body
arms overswing.
Downswing, you throw the club and stand up with no body rotation to square the face.
Pretty much every amateur has similar faults.

This one seems very important: Downswing, you throw the club and stand up with no body rotation to square the face. Today, I practiced squaring the club face with a body rotation and it worked out well. Thoughts?

It depends on what the ball flight was with the swing you describe. Golf is what the ball does. Did it hook or slice? Did it pull left or did you block it right? That would help with a diagnosis.

different swings, different methods.

Ever heard of a "block"?

I said the lower body helps square the club face on an old forum. you should have heard some of the remarks.
Actually, if the hips don't turn, the shoulders more than like won't turn, so you end up swinging to right field(righty) and the clubface stays square to your hands/setup and you get a fairly straight push. Blocked.

Not necessarily so. Some folks with inactive lower bodies can still hang back, swing inside out, work those shoulders, the hands flip over in the hitting area, and they can hook the crap out of the ball! If that's the problem, then yes, learning to move the lower body properly in the golf swing, can help to square the clubface. It can also help if you're swinging outside in, and slicing. Lower body movement is necessary in every golf swing, even short chips and pitches.

 

[razaar]

Actually, I did not know this and I am well read in these forums . But, it's good to know us ams do it differently and maybe it's ok to have a upper body driven swing. Should we be bracing in both the backswing and downswing (we sling the club)?

Are you saying you can't feel your body and legs bracing as you power the swing with your arms and shoulders? If you have a rotational swing which frees up the arms to only control the club then I guess we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[rocullen]

Not necessarily so. Some folks with inactive lower bodies can still hang back, swing inside out, work those shoulders, the hands flip over in the hitting area, and they can hook the crap out of the ball! If that's the problem, then yes, learning to move the lower body properly in the golf swing, can help to square the clubface. It can also help if you're swinging outside in, and slicing. Lower body movement is necessary in every golf swing, even short chips and pitches.

Some folks can do just about anything. By not rotating and squaring naturally, some folks get a little handsy.

"more than likely" means not all the time or every time, just a great chance of it happening. Of course there is the complete opposite of getting handsy and creating a multitude of problems...at some time or another. Of course, pros have bad times also. witness J Spieth.

 

[WILDTHING]

The hands and arms control the clubface, the body powers the golf swing in elite golfers. The average golfer uses his hands, arms and shoulders to power the swing and uses his body and legs as a brace to create the leverage for shoulders and arms. Surely you know this from all the swing threads on the forum.

I'm assuming you are saying that the lower and upper body pivot is powering the golf swing but I'm not so sure after reading this article below

(PDF) Swing Kinematics for Male and Female Pro Golfers (researchgate.net)

1. LPGA players turn their hips faster than PGA players
2. LPGA players turn their trunk minimally slower than PGA players
3. LPGA players time their release and kinematic sequence virtually the same as PGA players ( LPGA time their release slightly prematurely)

Yet the maximum club shaft angular velocities of PGA players were much higher than LPGA (2408 deg/sec vs 2049 deg/sec) . PGA players drive 15% further than LPGA ranked at the same level

According to the article , the major differences are:
a. LPGA players have right elbow extension at a maximum of 705 deg/sec which is far slower than PGA players 855 deg/sec (ie. right arm straightening quicker)
b. LPGA players maximally uncock their left wrist at 816 deg/sec while right wrist at 864 deg/sec which is far slower than PGA players (left wrist 1140 deg/sec , right wrist 1226 deg/sec)

So this is rather puzzling because their isn't much difference between LPGA vs PGA with regards body rotation mechanics , but rather that the PGA player's arms are moving faster.

So the question is what is moving the arms faster if there is no correlation with the body pivot? Is it the PGA players stronger shoulder girdle muscles and right tricep (ie. elbow extension) that plays an important factor in generating faster arms and greater clubhead speeds? Probably needs more research to delve even deeper into the rabbit hole.

 

[rocullen]

I'm assuming you are saying that the lower and upper body pivot is powering the golf swing but I'm not so sure after reading this article below

(PDF) Swing Kinematics for Male and Female Pro Golfers (researchgate.net)

1. LPGA players turn their hips faster than PGA players
2. LPGA players turn their trunk minimally slower than PGA players
3. LPGA players time their release and kinematic sequence virtually the same as PGA players ( LPGA time their release slightly prematurely)

Yet the maximum club shaft angular velocities of PGA players were much higher than LPGA (2408 deg/sec vs 2049 deg/sec) . PGA players drive 15% further than LPGA ranked at the same level

According to the article , the major differences are:
a. LPGA players right elbow extension at a maximum of 705 deg/sec is far slower than PGA players 855 deg/sec (ie. right arm straightening quicker)
b. LPGA players maximally uncock their left wrist at 816 deg/sec while right wrist at 864 deg/sec which is far slower than PGA players (left wrist 1140 deg/sec , right wrist 1226 deg/sec)

So this is rather puzzling because their isn't much difference between LPGA vs PGA with regards body rotation mechanics , but rather that the PGA player's arms are moving faster.

So the question is what is moving the arms faster if there is no correlation with the body pivot? Is it the PGA players stronger shoulder girdle muscles and right tricep (ie. elbow extension) that plays an important factor in generating faster arms and greater clubhead speeds? Probably needs more research to delve even deeper into the rabbit hole.

Chris Como had a show with Golf Tec last year. It was interesting that the back almost did a reverse from the target line before the release. They didn't say it, but that is what The Golf Machine meant by a endless loop illustrates the powerful swing. The shoulders rotating around the spine with the club lagging is just like the illustration in TGM, but when the lead shoulder start up after body has turned back a little past the setup position they should be a couple of degrees negative from the target and it gives the club head the slingshot affect like when the illustration of endless loop reaches the bottom pulley.

My thoughts are that the lower body rotation frees up everything and gives the trunk a kind of kick start and it sets the club path on a shallower plane almost making coming over the top impossible. Didn't say it was impossible, just almost! It's that tilting swing plane that Hogan described and illustrated in 5 Lessons. With that accomplished, I'm think the male Pro's unleash their shoulder rotation with explosive power. That is their "hit". I don't think but a few women can match that explosive power from the men. Maybe mindset; don't need it????
So, I think the body rotation adds the extra 10, 20, 30% because of the running start, not to mention that it sets things into an almost fool proof chain of events. I said "almost". be kind.

The lower body rotation adds the first percentage of the power band, then the shoulders/body start at 15%, 20% or.... so they are not starting from 0%
Think of an eccentric cam, kinda like in a compound bow. The bow starts slow until it hits the cams then wham. A 60 lb compound will out shoot a 60lb recurve.

 

[Carolina Golfer]

Someone posted this series of articles in another thread here. The series is excellent, but this part of the series has a really good exercise that finally got me to feel a square swing path the way my instructor was trying to get me to swing it. It's about 1/2 way down. Of course proper address and grip are neccasary before doing this.

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf

Leslie King Tuition 3 - First, lets pause to ask a very fundamental question....WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO DO IN THE GOLF SWING?|Leslie King Tuition 3 - First, lets pause to ask a very fundamental question....WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO DO IN THE GOLF SWING?

golftoday.co.uk

DataDude, Is the key move the lifting of the trail heel and trail knee inside on the downswing?

 

[DataDude]

DataDude, Is the key move the lifting of the trail heel and trail knee inside on the downswing?

For me what I feel is really pulling my left arm and feeling what the rest of my body must do for that to happen. I have actually started doing that motion as my waggle to make sure I feel it. I have read through that entire series twice in a week and a half now. For some reason that just clicked what my instructor wanted to see me do. He just has a harder time explaining it to me. The entire series goes through that focus though. The section titled Goal Of The Golf Swing lays out explicitly that the goal is to swing the clubhead on the target line with the face square to the target. Simple but not easy obviously LOL!

 

[Carolina Golfer]

For me what I feel is really pulling my left arm and feeling what the rest of my body must do for that to happen. I have actually started doing that motion as my waggle to make sure I feel it. I have read through that entire series twice in a week and a half now. For some reason that just clicked what my instructor wanted to see me do. He just has a harder time explaining it to me. The entire series goes through that focus though. The section titled Goal Of The Golf Swing lays out explicitly that the goal is to swing the clubhead on the target line with the face square to the target. Simple but not easy obviously LOL!

Thanks, for sharing. I do pull down with my left side (left hand). But, recently I bought a new driver and I believe this method was exposed to me as something bad. With the larger clubhead, it was hard to bring it down to square only with my left hand and I've had a slice swing with the driver. That's why I asked about the use of the body rotation to square the clubface.

 

[blugold]

I need to use my hands to help square the face. Otherwise my lower body out races my upper body and I block fade everything.

 

[DataDude]

Thanks, for sharing. I do pull down with my left side (left hand). But, recently I bought a new driver and I believe this method was exposed to me as something bad. With the larger clubhead, it was hard to bring it down to square only with my left hand and I've had a slice swing with the driver. That's why I asked about the use of the body rotation to square the clubface.

Yeah my feel there is a right knee folding in, right foot starting to push up, right butt starts to tighten, and my weight starts leaning into the post my left leg has formed. Also do the same motion back about 1/2 way. The motion should be basically exactly the same on your takeaway as it is on your through swing. When I got the feel of that pendulum it really helped me stay square through the swing. Also I immediately know when I did something stupid like a chicken wing to push the head over the top on top of the swing or when I cast at the bottom of the swing.

 

[WILDTHING]

Chris Como had a show with Golf Tec last year. It was interesting that the back almost did a reverse from the target line before the release. They didn't say it, but that is what The Golf Machine meant by a endless loop illustrates the powerful swing. The shoulders rotating around the spine with the club lagging is just like the illustration in TGM, but when the lead shoulder start up after body has turned back a little past the setup position they should be a couple of degrees negative from the target and it gives the club head the slingshot affect like when the illustration of endless loop reaches the bottom pulley.

My thoughts are that the lower body rotation frees up everything and gives the trunk a kind of kick start and it sets the club path on a shallower plane almost making coming over the top impossible. Didn't say it was impossible, just almost! It's that tilting swing plane that Hogan described and illustrated in 5 Lessons. With that accomplished, I'm think the male Pro's unleash their shoulder rotation with explosive power. That is their "hit". I don't think but a few women can match that explosive power from the men. Maybe mindset; don't need it????
So, I think the body rotation adds the extra 10, 20, 30% because of the running start, not to mention that it sets things into an almost fool proof chain of events. I said "almost". be kind.

The lower body rotation adds the first percentage of the power band, then the shoulders/body start at 15%, 20% or.... so they are not starting from 0%
Think of an eccentric cam, kinda like in a compound bow. The bow starts slow until it hits the cams then wham. A 60 lb compound will out shoot a 60lb recurve.

Did you mean the endless belt (see link below)?

Aiming Point & The Endless Belt (theswingengineer.com)

http://www.theswingengineer.com/media/endless-belt-ani.gif

Homer Kelley (TGM) used several pragmatic concepts to try and explain the golf swing without using complicated maths/physics (which, if he did, would make his book even more difficult to understand). The endless belt imho is quite good as I can see 2 endless belts in the golf swing. The below diagrams provide an example where the hands are on one 'endless belt' in Jamie's early downswing . The Tiger image below shows the path of the lead shoulder in the downswing and that looks like another 'endless belt'. Almost as if the lower/upper body pivot are assisting the lead shoulder and hands to curve their paths to help 'release' the club.

 

[rocullen]

No, no, no it was backwards of that.....just joking
Yes, I meant endless belt, my bad.
Thanks for clarification.

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

I need to use my hands to help square the face. Otherwise my lower body out races my upper body and I block fade everything.

That sounds like a bad solution. Could lead to flipping, and then you might have no idea where the ball is going. What you need to do is get your arms moving.

 

[blugold]

That sounds like a bad solution. Could lead to flipping, and then you might have no idea where the ball is going. What you need to do is get your arms moving.

It's as bad a situation as relying on the body to square the face.