Jack Nicklaus and the request for a ball roll back

[MrDC]

Jack just doesn't want to see his courses become obsolete, and that's fair, but I think the game is doing fine as is and no changes are needed, to ball or driver, although I would like to see the broomstick putter outlawed, another discussion.

The big problem is courses can't make more tree/OB trouble to stop the bombers, they need wide open spaces for the galleries, without those areas they cannot be a Tour stop so distance aside many courses us amateurs play are tougher than a PGA course, because our holes are often lined with deep woods on both sides of the FW and the greens surrounded by trouble, it's cheaper to maintain, so a wildly missed tee shot on tour is still often in play, for us it's gone, and those approaches from 200+ are very risky for us where the pros often have huge chipping areas to allow spectators, as well as missed approaches.

I think the only answer I see is deeper rough and smaller fairways, but that gets a little silly so I don't see that going too far, they just have to deal with the length IMO.

 

[blugold]

Jack just doesn't want to see his courses become obsolete, and that's fair, but I think the game is doing fine as is and no changes are needed, to ball or driver, although I would like to see the broomstick putter outlawed, another discussion.

The big problem is courses can't make more tree/OB trouble to stop the bombers, they need wide open spaces for the galleries, without those areas they cannot be a Tour stop so distance aside many courses us amateurs play are tougher than a PGA course, because our holes are often lined with deep woods on both sides of the FW and the greens surrounded by trouble, it's cheaper to maintain, so a wildly missed tee shot on tour is still often in play, for us it's gone, and those approaches from 200+ are very risky for us where the pros often have huge chipping areas to allow spectators.

I think the only answer I see is deeper rough and smaller fairways, but that gets a little silly so I don't see that going too far, they just have to deal with the length IMO.

Why should PGA Tour stops be the barometer for how every other course gets played? There are very few public courses become obsolete because they're being over powered by golfers.

Scratch that, there isn't a golf course that is becoming obsolete by being over powered by golfers.

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

There's a reason all of the long hitters always seem to all play the same tournaments and struggle in some of the others. I mean, when was the last time a bomber did well at Harbour Town?

Eeeeeexactly. But they'll never have a major at Harbour Town because the general public wants the bombs. Hence why Jack is just blowing air...

 

[GolfTravelDude]

Learn something new every day. I had not realized tennis had taken measures to slow the ball down. That is very interesting. I also hadn't realized that college baseball took measures to slow the bat energy down. Here's two measures which were enacted to keep their games within boundaries of previous performance. Why? And MLB has never allowed any bat but wood. Solid wood. Remember the corked bat fiasco's. So baseball bats for MLB same as they ever were....
Meantime Harbour town was 6500 when 1st on tour but is 7100 yards now. Why?

 

[blugold]

Learn something new every day. I had not realized tennis had taken measures to slow the ball down. That is very interesting. I also hadn't realized that college baseball took measures to slow the bat energy down. Here's two measures which were enacted to keep their games within boundaries of previous performance. Why? And MLB has never allowed any bat but wood. Solid wood. Remember the corked bat fiasco's. So baseball bats for MLB same as they ever were....

this is irrelevant to golf.

Meantime Harbour town was 6500 when 1st on tour but is 7100 yards now. Why?

when was the last time a bomber won at Harbour Town? Jack Nicklaus (gasp) in the 70s?

 

[BigMac]

What's are the viewership numbers for the PGA Tour events that feature "the long hitters" and the events that don't? I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I bet the events with the most long hitters get way more views than the event that those players sit out.

Think of just a couple of the big exciting moments in recent history - Hideki swinging out of his shoes and bombing that huge drive on the 72nd hole last weekend at the Sony to set up his eventual playoff victory. Phil hitting driver off the deck to reach a 675 yard par 5 in two at Kapalua. Bryson hitting the 372 yard monster shot over the lake at the Arnold Palmer Invitational. Fans were going absolutely wild over that shot and Bryson was having a lot of fun with it, pumping up the crowd and celebrating after he hit it. Do fans and viewers react the same when Chez Reavie or Matt Kuchar hit a nice drive 275 yards? Does it get the same amount of media coverage, clicks and video posts on social media?

Bubba Watson took some pretty major heat at the 2014 PGA Championship when he refused to hit driver on #10 during the Tuesday practice round. The PGA was hosting a long drive contest on that hole and Bubba at that time was one of the longest hitters on Tour. Everybody wanted to see him bomb a long one, and even though the fans were begging for it, he left his driver in the bag and hit a 3 iron instead, saying "I'm here to win a championship. I'm not here to goof around". A lot of people (myself included, admittedly) thought he was a real Richard for doing that.

Sports fans watch sports to see extraordinary people doing extraordinary things. Football fans don't get excited watching Carson Wentz throwing 3-yard checkdowns, they get fired up for Aaron Rodgers throwing 50 yard Hail Marys into the end zone with no time left on the clock. Basketball fans don't go nuts over players scoring with layups and 15 foot bank shots, they want to see flying, thunderous dunks that rattle the backboards. Golf fans? Sure, it's cool to see guys hit a 170 yard approach shot and stick it close to the pin or sink a long birdie putt, but what really pumps us up is when somebody chooses to take on a huge shot that nobody else is taking - deliberately hitting over a tree line into an opposing fairway to set up a short approach, blasting over some monstrous forced carry, bombing driver off the deck - doing things that not every golfer out there can do.

I'll never understand why the powers-that-be in golf are determined to water down the sport and neuter the athletes who drive the most engagement in the game. It's almost like they want to ruin the same and see it fail. "Equity" is a stupid concept in the context of athletic skill and performance. Sure, everybody should play on the same field by the same rules, but some people are better than others at certain things and that should be celebrated rather than punished.

 

[InTheRough]

I commented to Jack on twitter: "At my age I need those extra 20 yds. the current ball gives me. If you want to roll it back, make it a Model Local Rule for Pros and Elite Amateurs."

 

[Architex]

This has been going on forever. Bobby Jones said the exact same thing. And when Tiger, JD, etc. are 70+ they will be saying it also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rollin]

hardly anyone brings up the fact that courses have grown longer and longer for a reason. Or they become obsolete. You cant imo just keep going more and more. I feel that is what the ideology stems from most. Imo it cant be allowed to keep going. It does bring the integrity of the courses down.
That being said, I think the most that will happen is that they will simply place even tighter restriction on the ball getting longer and not necessarily go backwards. From thast point all you have to do is place forced layups on enough of the holes and the issue diminishes greatly if not goes away all together.

Making courses longer simply backfired because it then just played to the favor of the longer hitting pool by default of it being too difficult for the shortest ones.

What courses are now obsolete?

For one thing....Augusta didnt grow through the years from 6700 to nearly 7500 for no reason. And have not other venues on the tour grown/lengthened through the years for the same reason?

 

[blugold]

For one thing....Augusta didnt grow through the years from 6800 to nearly 7500 for no reason. And have not other venues on the tour grown/lengthened through the years for the same reason?

Augusta didn't have to. They saw Tiger take the course apart and made it a bombers paradise, the opposite result they intended. No courses have to. But let's step back for one second, why do we care what PGA pros do to a course? Why should PGA Tour pros' abilities change how 99% of the golfers get to play the game?

 

[rollin]

Imo the idea that Jack hit the ball further than most back in his day is not at all relevant to what he is suggesting. That notion just doesnt apply. Regardless how far (or not) the balls travel is still going to result in the longer hitters on tour being longer than the others. The idea was and is always going to be to try to drive the ball further then others (on the holes where it is an advantage to do so and if the player can do it). Just because he is an advocate for this does not at all mean he should have used a 5w where/when driver was the play for the given holes he played. That suggestion imo is ridiculous and not relevant at all.

Im not a fan of rolling the ball back just to be clear. But I do understand the reasons it is a topic and on the table. Imo any argument which states that the longest hitters do not at all always win and therefore would imply it doesn't matter misses the point entirely (imo). Courses have grown through the decades of the 1900's and up till recent times. There is a reason for that. The game has gotten longer. The equipment and balls and players have done so through time. Courses adapted to that fact and not even only at the pro level but at the amateur level too. But that growth had or has to stop somewhere as it just cant keep growing longer forever. That imo is a very reasonable and respectable notion.

Here is some info from an article I read on course length growth through the decades which states its used the R&A ad USGA distance insight reports as a source.
This of course would be a combination of course alterations but also as new courses were built through the decades. The information states the average golf course has grown (if you averaged from 1930 to present) it comes to 7 yrds per year. And for pro venues it has averaged a growth of 9 yrds per year or 6500 to 7300 (as of 2018). There is no denying this is all attributed to equipment and players abilities with said equipment. The played game grew longer as time passed and so when it reached certain length intervals then the courses through the years grew accordingly. Or as newer courses were built they were simply built longer than before and more relative to their current construction time frame.

Imo the point of it all is that it cant just keep going. As courses get/got longer it was done with the same exact ideology as making the ball (or equipment) shorter. The courses grew longer in order to better accommodate the longer game being played at the different times. The entire ideology of limiting what clubs and balls can do was/is done for the exact same reason. But tech has caught up to the restrictions and therefore the played game once again grew some in distance regardless. And so as always been the case throughout course length history its perhaps reached another era where the courses need to again grow longer again. Its a never ending battle and rolling the ball is perhaps the alternative as courses for a slew of reason just cant keep growing. Just picture if courses through the time never grew accordingly at all from the beginning. How many would hold the integrity they started out with? especially at the pro level?

To me I understand the idea . But my solution would be to simply change golf course layouts on some % of golf holes to help combat too many pros from bombing past the integrity. Rough, bunkers, forced layups etc.... But of course you also have to have some % of holes where longest hitters can showcase and use thier special gift too. But over all imo if you tame some % of it it will solve the problem and also broaden the pool of tour pros a bit imo too.

 

[rollin]

Augusta didn't have to. They saw Tiger take the course apart and made it a bombers paradise, the opposite result they intended. No courses have to. But let's step back for one second, why do we care what PGA pros do to a course? Why should PGA Tour pros' abilities change how 99% of the golfers get to play the game?

From what i found . Augusta grew from 6700 to 7000 long before Tiger. It actually at one point dropped a bit (due to some hole changes) but then grew steady again till todays yardages. And they even purchased adjoining land I beleive in part for the purpose of adding yardage if/when the time comes again.
What you ask about pros vs the masses? That then comes down to the debate of bifurcation of rules and regulations.

 

[wristcock]

I like designs that challenge all skills - not just adding yardage to rein in the bombers. A well-designed short par 4 can be as challenging and interesting as any hole. I also believe everything Jack says.....

 

[rollin]

I like designs that challenge all skills - not just adding yardage to rein in the bombers. A well-designed short par 4 can be as challenging and interesting as any hole. I also believe everything Jack says.....

But making things longer never reined in anything at all. All it ever did was make holes more relevant (integrity wise) to the growing percentage of longer hitting game and its players. And in fact in that sense all it ever also did was raise the bottom bar (or shortest hitting threshold) to serious competition.
By simple default its actually playing to the favor of longer hitting without ever reining it in. Its kind of been a catch-22 self generating scenario . The courses lengthen to reclaim integrity for the lengthening of game play, but then the contending player pool bottom bar (or threshold) rises, and then the courses need more length again, and so on and so on. It never reins it in but only plays into it.

thats clearly gone on forever so far. Only two ways to rein it in are to force layups or other course design features to help prevent or tame it like a well designed short par 4 you mention. The other is to limit balls and equipment. Courses cant just keep getting longer as history has up to this point continued to do. Imo the problem is real. The history of this shows its real. Can one imagine golf courses never lengthened since the 30's or whenever? imagine much further back than that too. There is only two ways that would been possible. And that would been either of the two ways mentioned at start of this paragraph and even then the game still would gotten too long anyway unless the equipment was stopped from getting longer.

 

[dAS0]

I find it to be nonsense. I think that course set up and design is the better focus. What was the winning score in 2013 at Merion, that "easy and short course that the pros would eat for breakfast"? +1?

 

[blugold]

But making things longer never reined in anything at all. All it ever did was make holes more relevant (integrity wise) to the growing percentage of longer hitting game and its players. And in fact in that sense all it ever also did was raise the bottom bar (or shortest hitting threshold) to serious competition.

what does that mean?

 

[BostonSal]

I don't thing the ball needs to be rolled back.

I think that there should be a 300cc / 44.5" maximum on drivers. however.

 

[blugold]

I don't thing the ball needs to be rolled back.

I think that there should be a 300cc / 44.5" maximum on drivers. however.

Why?

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

I find it to be nonsense. I think that course set up and design is the better focus. What was the winning score in 2013 at Merion, that "easy and short course that the pros would eat for breakfast"? +1?

I meant to mention Merion but forgot to. Yeah and who was the winner that year? Justin Rose, very much a precision type player. Not exactly "short", but certainly not a bomber. Also in the top 10 that year by the way? Luke Donald, Steve Stricker and Jason Dufner. Only one long bomber in there, Jason Day at 2nd - but we all know he had a lot more than bombs going on at that time.

I stand by it, if they put more shorter courses with a focus on accuracy out there on the circuit, the shorter hitters will be much more in the mix without making the long hitters irrelevant.

 

[BostonSal]

Why?

If the USGA/R&A are going to have limits on clubhead volume and length, then the principle is set and what remains is to decide where to put them.

My personal subjective opinion is that the modern driver is unreasonably big and long.
That's all, really. Just a personal subjective opinion.
Younger players don't know anything else and thus the club looks normal to them. I understand that.

 

[MGoBlue]

Short knockers gonna be short knockers no matter what they do to the ball, it just puts them at an even bigger disadvantage. How about solving it by mowing the fairways differently so the pros don't get 130 yards of roll, and leave the ball alone?

THIS!!! You want to stop the pros from hitting it so far? Grow some grass!!! A lot of the fairways they play on are faster than my course's greens. The only way I get anywhere near that roll in the fairway is if the course is completely baked out. Or, if I cold top it.

 

[BigMac]

Top 10 in driving distance for the 2021 PGA Tour season:
Bryson
Rory
C. Champ
M. Wolff
Will Gordon
Wyndham Clark
Dustin Johnson
Luke List
Jhonattan Vegas
Brandon Hagy

2021 PGA Tour results are listed here. Bryson had two wins; Rory, DJ and Champ had one apiece. That's out of 50 total events, so the top 10 long drivers collectively won 10% of the events in the 2021 season. Nobody else in the top 10 for distance won anything.

 

[rollin]

what does that mean?

Im using it as a metaphor. i think you know that. Integrity as for being more relevant to the current times and game.
It means metaphorically....as they made holes longer through time due to the game being played longer.....the reason that happened was to put integrity (or current relevance) back into the holes.

One example ........if i design a par 4 that is X length and place bunkers (as an obstacle) at sides of average landing zone, but then players (too many players) begin hitting well past the obstacle cause the average has moved longer then my hole lost some its integrity and hasn't stayed relative. So id have to move tees back in order to regain that same integrity it had before. Another example.......If i have a par 5 on the shorter side to begin with that never grew at all along with the game length growth and now almost anyone is hitting it in two. The hole one can consider has then lost its integrity as a 5 that it once had as it failed to adapt. So after its made longer it regains some of it.

To exaggerate.......If i stood on a tee box with you on a straight 270 yard par 4 with no obstacles at all and very wide open forgiving and large flat green .......and I said to you....."this hole doesn't have much integrity"
most folks wouldnt know what i meant by that? i guess then Id be using the wrong metaphor cause it would make sense to me but i guess not most others.

 

[BostonSal]

Our club's course was built in 1906, and a decade or so ago,
it was shut down for two years for complete restoration to its original Donald Ross specifications.

Thankfully, despite spenfing millions on the renovtion, the club's private ownership wasn't interested in keeping up with the times
so that our membership can continue to enjoy playing hickory shaft era hole lengths.

Might not work for everybody. Sure works for me. Don't find my Pro V1x to be too long for the course.

 

[notsure2]

I see some posts here that are somewhat disrespectful of Jack Nicklaus. Not to scold here, but realize that he has more experience in this game and all things golf than most. He was a long hitter.
I think the effect of long drives on the game would be more subtle than you would expect. For instance, as I began playing the shorter tees as I aged, I noticed that I was having more fun than before. I enjoyed hitting long drives just like everyone else, but the "real" game of golf is played from 100 yds and in.
When you step up to the tee there you see a picture of the hole layout. If the green is 600 yds away that is a pretty boring picture. You should give Jack the benefit of the doubt here. He knows a lot.