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Forward/ladies tees are way too long

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greenOak

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Okay so hear me out. According to USGA a female bogey-golfer hits her tee shots 150 yards and can reach a 280-yard hole in two shots. A common recommendation for which tees to play is 28*Driver distance which would be 4200 yards for USGA's hypothetical player. Moreover, this recommendation is likely an overestimate as it recommends the PGA tour play from roughly 8400 yards, and the LPGA from 7000. And let's be real, there are plenty of people (both men and women) who struggle to hit it this far. Now I'm not sure about elsewhere, but around this neck of the woods there are very few courses with tees this short. The city run courses which most deem "beginner-friendly" measure over 5100+ yards from the forward most tees. Almost all the courses I frequently play at measure 5200-5800 yards from the forward tees. Here's a breakdown of holes from a personal favourite, and one of the highest-rated public course near me (5384 yards):

Hole 1 - Par 4, 334 Yards, Unreachable in regulation with a 150 yard drive
Hole 2 - Par 4, 311 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 3 - Par 5, 472 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 4 - Par 3, 100 Yards
Hole 5 - Par 4, 345 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 6 - Par 5, 456 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 7 - Par 4, 242 Yards
Hole 8 - Par 3, 119 Yards
Hole 9 - Par 4, 366 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 10 - Par 5, 456 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 11 - Par 4, 356 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 12 - Par 4, 265 Yards
Hole 13 - Par 3, 95 Yards
Hole 14 - Par 4, 279 Yards
Hole 15 - Par 5, 446 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 16 - Par 4, 314 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 17 - Par 3, 115 Yards
Hole 18 - Par 4, 313 Yards, Unreachable

11/18 of the holes are unreachable, and of the seven that are reachable most are going to require a hybrid/wood to reach the green.

This wouldn't actually be a problem except people playing tees too long for them result in slow play. Not only does this put people waiting behind them in a bad mood, it often discourages the slow players themselves. I say this because I have seen it first hand with one of my female friends who only wants to go to the driving range until she gets better. It's not as if people were rude either. The first time we were playing, we let groups play through, and everyone was very understanding, but she still felt guilty about slowing everyone down. I suggested teeing the ball up in the fairway, but she was uneasy about not playing from where the course said to play from, or something along those lines. Not to mention that the thought of not teeing off from the tee box isn't going to enter the mind of a group of beginners.

Tl;dr Golf courses need to make shorter tees. I would honestly suggest having tees as short as 3000 yards. It would help pace of play issues, and make it much easier for beginners to break into the game.
 
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I agree with this completely. I feel like most courses need MORE tee boxes, or to only have the "tips" available for tournament play. Let the ego driven amateurs play from 6600 yards and not feel emasculated due to the 7000 yard tees being unavailable.

More tee boxes, and less specific identification of tees (no more "mens" tees, etc.) would help speed up play quite a bit on busy days.

I also find that city courses, where more beginners play (compared to semi-privates) actually play longer than the non-munis. I don't know why any city course thinks that a 7300 yard course full of drunken weekend warriors is a good idea.
 
It's definitely not fair that the forward fees are not practical. I was trying to tell this to my course pro.
 
Okay, the 28* driver distance thing is not realistic. Just get that right out of your mind.

I like the idea of closer forward tees. More access is great. I don't know how feasible it is on some courses. The five closest courses to me have forward tees of 4069 (yellow), 4459 (gold), 4688 (green), 4922 (red), and 4964 (red) respectively. I'm picturing them, and I can think of at least a dozen holes where the forward most tees are already kind of in the way from the tips. The shortest one (4069) has a few where even a minor mishit with driver (or the wind) puts them in play from the back tees. And no, that doesn't mean the person playing the back tees is playing tees that are too long for them. I'm sure no one has pity on the person playing the tips, but I'm trying to figure out on a lot of other holes where you could even put more forward tees that wouldn't screw with the layout. I'm not trying to be a Richard, I just think having tees that play half the distance of the back tees would create some challenges. Feels like a role executive courses would fill easier.

A lot of courses don't frown on someone teeing from somewhere further up in the fairway if they'd like to, either. We do it with kids. My buddy that's handicap does too.
 
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5200-5800 does seem awfully long for forward tees. The forward tees at my home course are 4700 and a lot of the senior men play from them, as well as the ladies. It's even more odd that it seems to be the rule rather than the exception at the courses near you.

IMO, the USGA was on to something with the "tee it forward" initiative. It kinda defeats the purpose when courses don't have tee boxes which allow that.
 
OldandStiff said:
Okay, the 28* driver distance thing is not realistic. Just get that right out of your mind.

I like the idea of closer forward tees. More access is great. I don't know how feasible it is on some courses. The five closest courses to me have forward tees of 4069 (yellow), 4459 (gold), 4688 (green), 4922 (red), and 4964 (red) respectively. I'm picturing them, and I can think of at least a dozen holes where the forward most tees are already kind of in the way from the tips. The shortest one (4069) has a few where even a minor mishit with driver (or the wind) puts them in play from the back tees. And no, that doesn't mean the person playing the back tees is playing tees that are too long for them. I'm sure no one has pity on the person playing the tips, but I'm trying to figure out on a lot of other holes where you could even put more forward tees that wouldn't screw with the layout. I'm not trying to be a Richard, I just think having tees that play half the distance of the back tees would create some challenges. Feels like a role executive courses would fill easier.

A lot of courses don't frown on someone teeing from somewhere further up in the fairway if they'd like to, either. We do it with kids. My buddy that's handicap does too.
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What exactly is the problem with the forward tees being in play from the tips? Outside of the very rare occasion your ball ricochets off a tee marker I don't see a problem.

And yeah, I highly doubt the course would have cared at all about teeing it up in the fairway, but I can see why someone new to the game might not feel 100% comfortable doing that.
 
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greenOak said:
What exactly is the problem with the forward tees being in play from the tips? Outside of the very rare occasion your ball ricochets off a tee marker I don't see a problem.

And yeah, I highly doubt the course would have cared at all about teeing it up in the fairway, but I can see why someone new to the game might not feel 100% comfortable doing that.
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Well no relief from a 30* rough lie on the side of a raised tee box, or one of the many divots on the tee itself, or up against the cut, or it just acting as an obstacle that stops the ball from running out are all a bit problematic to me. I mean, I've missed a drive or two bad enough to be on/near a different hole's tee box, and the lies seem to be overwhelmingly poor. I don't think anyone would want that type of thing being near the intended line. I just know it's already borderline problematic on some holes here, so it would only get worse or more common that they'd potentially be in the way. There's only so much real estate on the sides, and if you're putting them that far forward you can't tuck them too far to the side anyway, because you're trying to give those players an easy path to the pin. Your 3k example on say a 7k full course puts the tee box at an average placement of 197 yds out on a 460 yd par 4. About 263 from those tees. With a mishit, a low trajectory player, or some wind, or none of those things, that's definitely in play for people.

I'm sure it could be figured out in most cases. To me it just seems like it wouldn't always be a great fit is all. I think that 4069 on the one course near us seems about the forward limit for traditional tees on a long course in my mind. I know we spray temporary tees up closer in the fairways for certain events, so something minimally impacting like that could be an option.


I'd fully support anyone helping someone new to tee it up in the fairway as a way to manage the course, and all the other little things we can do to help beginners. It's our job to make them feel comfortable doing something like that so it's more fun for them and encourages them to come back.
 
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Yeah okay that would be annoying. One of the courses near me recently put in a 4200 yard set of tees, but they literally just put down tee markers in a relatively flat part of the fairway rather than build an actual tee box so I was probably thinking about that.

Kind of surprised you find lies on other tee boxes to be poor tbh, I find them to be just like fairway - usually better lol.
 
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greenOak said:
Okay so hear me out. According to USGA a female bogey-golfer hits her tee shots 150 yards and can reach a 280-yard hole in two shots. A common recommendation for which tees to play is 28*Driver distance which would be 4200 yards for USGA's hypothetical player. Moreover, this recommendation is likely an overestimate as it recommends the PGA tour play from roughly 8400 yards, and the LPGA from 7000. And let's be real, there are plenty of people (both men and women) who struggle to hit it this far. Now I'm not sure about elsewhere, but around this neck of the woods there are very few courses with tees this short. The city run courses which most deem "beginner-friendly" measure over 5100+ yards from the forward most tees. Almost all the courses I frequently play at measure 5200-5800 yards from the forward tees. Here's a breakdown of holes from a personal favourite, and one of the highest-rated public course near me (5384 yards):

Hole 1 - Par 4, 334 Yards, Unreachable in regulation with a 150 yard drive
Hole 2 - Par 4, 311 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 3 - Par 5, 472 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 4 - Par 3, 100 Yards
Hole 5 - Par 4, 345 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 6 - Par 5, 456 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 7 - Par 4, 242 Yards
Hole 8 - Par 3, 119 Yards
Hole 9 - Par 4, 366 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 10 - Par 5, 456 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 11 - Par 4, 356 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 12 - Par 4, 265 Yards
Hole 13 - Par 3, 95 Yards
Hole 14 - Par 4, 279 Yards
Hole 15 - Par 5, 446 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 16 - Par 4, 314 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 17 - Par 3, 115 Yards
Hole 18 - Par 4, 313 Yards, Unreachable

11/18 of the holes are unreachable, and of the seven that are reachable most are going to require a hybrid/wood to reach the green.

This wouldn't actually be a problem except people playing tees too long for them result in slow play. Not only does this put people waiting behind them in a bad mood, it often discourages the slow players themselves. I say this because I have seen it first hand with one of my female friends who only wants to go to the driving range until she gets better. It's not as if people were rude either. The first time we were playing, we let groups play through, and everyone was very understanding, but she still felt guilty about slowing everyone down. I suggested teeing the ball up in the fairway, but she was uneasy about not playing from where the course said to play from, or something along those lines. Not to mention that the thought of not teeing off from the tee box isn't going to enter the mind of a group of beginners.

Tl;dr Golf courses need to make shorter tees. I would honestly suggest having tees as short as 3000 yards. It would help pace of play issues, and make it much easier for beginners to break into the game.
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Yes, yes, yes,
It broke my heart when I watched a friends wife struggle down long fairways hitting one perfectly good short shot after another until she was fed up and quit the game. When I suggested she tee up in the fairway her husband protested that that wasn’t how the game was played.
My wife is 5ft tall, she can hit a wonderful 100yd drive, does this disqualify her from the game of golf? Is there a good reason why her and I can’t play together?
Tee it forward changed my life, until started using gps, learned my true distance and moved up, I was one of those people hitting one short shot after another because my buddies “played the whites” “your not old enough to play the senior tees” “the forward tees are for women”.
Of the dozen courses I frequent only one participates in tee it forward. To suggest a couple more sets of markers in the fairway would hinder others play is poppycock.
Alister Mackenzie designed golf courses to provide “pleasure and excitement to the greatest number”
To say golf has lost its way is an understatement.
 
greenOak said:
Okay so hear me out. According to USGA a female bogey-golfer hits her tee shots 150 yards and can reach a 280-yard hole in two shots. A common recommendation for which tees to play is 28*Driver distance which would be 4200 yards for USGA's hypothetical player. Moreover, this recommendation is likely an overestimate as it recommends the PGA tour play from roughly 8400 yards, and the LPGA from 7000. And let's be real, there are plenty of people (both men and women) who struggle to hit it this far. Now I'm not sure about elsewhere, but around this neck of the woods there are very few courses with tees this short. The city run courses which most deem "beginner-friendly" measure over 5100+ yards from the forward most tees. Almost all the courses I frequently play at measure 5200-5800 yards from the forward tees. Here's a breakdown of holes from a personal favourite, and one of the highest-rated public course near me (5384 yards):

Hole 1 - Par 4, 334 Yards, Unreachable in regulation with a 150 yard drive
Hole 2 - Par 4, 311 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 3 - Par 5, 472 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 4 - Par 3, 100 Yards
Hole 5 - Par 4, 345 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 6 - Par 5, 456 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 7 - Par 4, 242 Yards
Hole 8 - Par 3, 119 Yards
Hole 9 - Par 4, 366 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 10 - Par 5, 456 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 11 - Par 4, 356 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 12 - Par 4, 265 Yards
Hole 13 - Par 3, 95 Yards
Hole 14 - Par 4, 279 Yards
Hole 15 - Par 5, 446 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 16 - Par 4, 314 Yards, Unreachable
Hole 17 - Par 3, 115 Yards
Hole 18 - Par 4, 313 Yards, Unreachable

11/18 of the holes are unreachable, and of the seven that are reachable most are going to require a hybrid/wood to reach the green.

This wouldn't actually be a problem except people playing tees too long for them result in slow play. Not only does this put people waiting behind them in a bad mood, it often discourages the slow players themselves. I say this because I have seen it first hand with one of my female friends who only wants to go to the driving range until she gets better. It's not as if people were rude either. The first time we were playing, we let groups play through, and everyone was very understanding, but she still felt guilty about slowing everyone down. I suggested teeing the ball up in the fairway, but she was uneasy about not playing from where the course said to play from, or something along those lines. Not to mention that the thought of not teeing off from the tee box isn't going to enter the mind of a group of beginners.

Tl;dr Golf courses need to make shorter tees. I would honestly suggest having tees as short as 3000 yards. It would help pace of play issues, and make it much easier for beginners to break into the game.
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My reply would be you're looking at this wrong by saying those holes are unreachable. Your example was a bogey golfer. By definition hole 1 should play in 5 strokes, therefore should reach the green in 3 and 2 putt. Not one hole on your list is unreachable if you play it as expected for a bogey golfer.
 
The term “ladies tees” is a problem in that some senior men, who perhaps should be playing from the forward tees, will not use them.
 
Add me to the list that don't think it would be problematic to have tees half way down the hole. It's not like the tee box needs to be in the fairway. Just place it off the side, in the rough. That should solve the problem of it being in the line of play. Seldom do we aim in the rough anyway. If you hit the ball in the rough (and I do all too often), then you should expect a challenging lie.
 
Agree 100%. Our forward tees are 5600 when are tips 6500ish and people wonder why the ladies league never finishes 9 in under 2.5 hours.
 
Datkison said:
My reply would be you're looking at this wrong by saying those holes are unreachable. Your example was a bogey golfer. By definition hole 1 should play in 5 strokes, therefore should reach the green in 3 and 2 putt. Not one hole on your list is unreachable if you play it as expected for a bogey golfer.
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I don't think that's true. If you're requiring a tee shot, a layup, and an approach shot, you've effectively changed the hole into a par 5. Therefore a bogey golfer should expect to score 6, not 5, on this hypothetical par 4. Forcing a bogey golfer to play for doubles on most holes sounds rough to me.

A lot of courses I play have middle tees around 5,800-6,000 yards, where virtually all holes are reachable by a male bogey golfer (avg. drive of 200 per the USGA). Why the double standard? I checked some scorecards for local courses, and we have some with forward tees at 4,700. They would pass the 'reachability' test for the OP.
 
No need for a full blown elevated tee box. Most of our courses up here just plop the markers down in the fairway.
 
Mrs. Reject likes the beginner tees at our local muni Hodge Park....par 4s are about 200 yards give or take....she has the opportunity to make a birdie if she hits 2 good shots!
 
Most forward tees at my home course are 5146y.
Then jumps from there:
5888
6570
6922
Generally the combo of yellow white plays 6230.

I can see where 5100 would be long for some of the women, most of the seniors play the forward tees at my course.
 
One 9 hole course in PA that the family likes to play when we vacation there, just this past summer put in a small tee box on each hole in the middle of each hole off to the side averaging 100-200 yds to the pin. They in effect created a par three course on their normal course. It has been hugely successful and enjoyable. Saw groups split between playing the longer tees, and these shorter ones. everyone having a good time. The club pro said it has boosted the number of rounds at the course last year. courses who complain they are not getting the traffic should consider this.
 
Thanks for shining a light on this greenOak. Always felt the forward tee yardages were less fair for that population given their typical distances but I didn't realize just how huge that disparity was. I took a look at the two courses I play most and also one of our new destination courses hoping it would reveal significant improvement. It's hard to argue against the distance disparity being a big barrier to the average distance female golfer, at least around here:

At my primary course, a fairly new Ken Dye and ranked #1 Muni in Missouri', that average female golfer could potentially reach six holes from front tees (p72/ 5305). They could get 3 of 4 par threes although maybe not? the two shortest are all carry over water. Our 4 par fives range from 438 to 476 yds so none are within reach in regulation. There are 3 of 10 par 4s theoretically in their GIR range.

I also play an older Perry/Press Maxwell fairly often. I consider it my 'short course' but it's actually even worse for that average female golfer (p71/5364). They could at best reach five holes in regulation; 3 of 5 par threes, 1 of 9 par fours, and 1 of 4 par fives. That par five is actually a long par four from the other tees.

Hoping to see big progress I also looked at a recently opened Coore Crenshaw. It's better (p71/5025) but there's certainly room for even more movement. That golfer could potentially get to 10 holes at Ozarks National; all 5 of the par threes, 3 of 9 par fours, and 2 of 4 par fives.

For reference, I'm (at my best), 'average' on the distance v age v handicap charts and I'm 64 years old. Yet if I'm playing decently I can still reach every single hole on those three courses in regulation from the normal blue tees: p.72/6534, p70/6162, p.71/6510. Undoubtedly it's a completely different game for the average female golfer and I agree that there should be a movement toward adding shorter tee options. My thinking is that 3700-4200 yards makes sense.
 
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My cousin's wife tees up from the 150 yard marker. My cousin has to be on his toes to score better than she does from his own tees.

There is no rule in a casual round of golf, that the golfer needs to use an established tee box. Courses would do well to post signs saying this.

I think alot of times the novice, just out for fun golfer takes the rules too seriously. Most, if any of the rules of golf shouldn't apply to them. I also think the rules of golf, in the amature ranks, to a certain degree, promotes slow play, and has a negative impact on getting new golfers on the courses. That's another issue in itself.

I have always thought putting an extra set of tees down the fairway some where would be a good thing. This, essentially turning any length course ito a par 3 course. After doing so the course designates certain days as a par 3 optional days. This is very doable.
 
Totally agree. When playing with @LoffKat we always take note of how much "love for the ladies" there is on a given course. We've played courses where the forward tees are 20 yards form the middle tees. Not a fun day for her most times, and she normally hits it further than 150 on her drives, so she is not a short hitter for a woman.

Our new home course has lots of love for the ladies. Whites play 6,400 at 71.4 131 and forward tees play 5,476 at 66.9 120.

Much more reasonable.

Par 4s from front tees are:
327
240
330
385
285
348
299
275
324
342

Par 5s are:
437
492
435
412

So overall, pretty reasonable.
 
100% agree! My Mom is still a fairly long hitter, but on her home course she needs to take woods on some 3’s and can’t hit the green in two on a number of par 4’s. In recent years they have set up some fairway tees for the women, so hopefully the feedback is being heard.
 
Interesting. Our forward tees are 5,229. Never before considered it but yeah, that's probably too long for too many people.
 
Yes, Yes, Yes! this is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to women golfers, especially those of us new to golf. I love playing courses that have forward tees that can give you a chance to make par while still giving you a challenge. When we were just starting out we always teed up in the fairway. We even got yelled at by a couple of guys for teeing up in the fairway one day. Told we weren't "really golfing". Once I get to the 150 marker my game is really pretty good, it's getting there that's the problem.
 
What I hate to see is three or four sets of tees in a straight line right in front of one another.
Our club has only "members" and "gold" ( for juniors / seniors / ladies) tees, but they're not in a straight line.
They're angled and offset so the hole plays similarly from both sets.
That's smart golf architrcture.
 
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