private clubs charging dues for closed course ?

[tahoebum]

Bingo. My feeling is that if you can afford the membership and monthly dues at a private club, then you can probably afford the monthly dues for the couple of months it is closed for this craziness.

Agreed. Only about 10% or 2.1 million U.S. golfers belong to a private country club and it may be less than that because quite a few have memberships at more than one private course. I’m guessing the average income at many of these private courses exceeds $250k and much more at the exclusive ones that often have initiation fees in excess of $40k.

 

[93civiccpe]

Curious here. If weather comes through (not seasonal) and wipes the ability to use for several weeks should members not have to pay?

View it like this. Hurricane heads towards Carolinas and for safety area shuts down things for several weeks (obviously happens), what should be done and how is this different?

I think weather challenges are to be expected and are fine because the members know that weather happens and most clubs you can still go in the club, have a drink, and watch golf.. The social aspect still exists with bad weather. The challenge here is that all facilities are closed and the club has decided that the staff still needs to be paid so they are still charging dues. They could make the hard decision not to pay staff since they are closed (which I don't like). What I like worse is them making the decision to pay the staff and pushing all that financial burden on to the membership. If they even reduced the dues by half and covered the rest of the expenses out of the club's profit then you are at least putting some money towards it yourself. At the end of the day I think it puts the club in a bad light and can cost them members.

 

[93civiccpe]

Just re-read and I still feel the same. I live in Virginia and we've had hurricanes come through my whole life. Just like the Midwest has had tornados. It is expected weather.

 

[GolfTravelDude]

There are a great number of clubs that just the mere mention of this subject would get you tossed or black balled from returning. The only way you act on changing the payment circumstances is by reaction to their request.

 

[jim54]

Bingo. My feeling is that if you can afford the membership and monthly dues at a private club, then you can probably afford the monthly dues for the couple of months it is closed for this craziness.

This was my 1st thought on seeing the thread tittle, but I did not want to appear snarky about it. Glad you said it 1st

I wish there was a club worth joining around me, there are 5 Courses within 5 minutes of my house and none are worth joining or offer it to outsiders that do not live in the development.

 

[JB]

I think weather challenges are to be expected and are fine because the members know that weather happens and most clubs you can still go in the club, have a drink, and watch golf.. The social aspect still exists with bad weather. The challenge here is that all facilities are closed and the club has decided that the staff still needs to be paid so they are still charging dues. They could make the hard decision not to pay staff since they are closed (which I don't like). What I like worse is them making the decision to pay the staff and pushing all that financial burden on to the membership. If they even reduced the dues by half and covered the rest of the expenses out of the club's profit then you are at least putting some money towards it yourself. At the end of the day I think it puts the club in a bad light and can cost them members.

During hurricane challenges many clubs close both sides so employees can be with families.

To me, natural disaster falls together. Sadly of course. Another example would be a course involved in a fire incident.

I do believe those that viewa club strictly as a golf saving and not the club environment would struggle more with this news though.

 

[93civiccpe]

Agreed. Only about 10% or 2.1 million U.S. golfers belong to a private country club and it may be less than that because quite a few have memberships at more than one private course. I’m guessing the average income at many of these private courses exceeds $250k and much more at the exclusive ones that often have initiation fees in excess of $40k.

So just because you have earned enough money to pay for services those services are okay to be taken away and you still have to pay? I hate the idea that just because someone has money that they should be okay if some of it is wasted when most of us don't have the extra money and are very conservative with ours. A wealthy person who is wasteful with their money will not be wealthy for very long..

 

[tahoebum]

Just re-read and I still feel the same. I live in Virginia and we've had hurricanes come through my whole life. Just like the Midwest has had tornados. It is expected weather.

Or you live in MN and the course shut down more than 5 months ago for winter and we are still waiting for an opening day. Food minimums and monthly’s do not stop in the winter, lol.

 

[tahoebum]

So just because you have earned enough money to pay for services those services are okay to be taken away and you still have to pay? I hate the idea that just because someone has money that they should be okay if some of it is wasted when most of us don't have the extra money and are very conservative with ours. A wealthy person who is wasteful with their money will not be wealthy for very long..

When you join a private club you understand that dues continue even after things not under your control such as injury, weather events, pandemics, etc. The club still has property taxes, utilities, maintenance costs, full time salaries, etc. that continue if they are open or not. Some clubs will go out of business if this continues for too much longer but not at the rate of many other small businesses. I had to pay my dues for two months after I moved out of California even though the guy that bought my home moved in a week after we left and bought my membership as well. He dragged his feet on finalizing his membership and I paid in the meantime. People at private clubs understand this. I’d be surprised if more than a handful of the 340 members at our club would expect dues to stop over this virus even if we can’t open for another month or two.

Many at private clubs are in the top 1% of income and they are used to paying a lot for government services they use less than average. They pay 39% of all Federal income taxes and often more than that for local property and state taxes.

 

[PKorf]

I think weather challenges are to be expected and are fine because the members know that weather happens and most clubs you can still go in the club, have a drink, and watch golf.. The social aspect still exists with bad weather. The challenge here is that all facilities are closed and the club has decided that the staff still needs to be paid so they are still charging dues. They could make the hard decision not to pay staff since they are closed (which I don't like). What I like worse is them making the decision to pay the staff and pushing all that financial burden on to the membership. If they even reduced the dues by half and covered the rest of the expenses out of the club's profit then you are at least putting some money towards it yourself. At the end of the day I think it puts the club in a bad light and can cost them members.

i respectfully totally disagree. Its also not the workers of that courses fault that all of this has happened. I signed up and became a member for a lot of different reason. In ohio, we really get the end of March through November....and thats if we are lucky to play. Based on your premise, I shouldnt have to pay anything for any months we dont play or have access to the pool? The restaurant and bar always remain open but on reduced hours. If it was done the way you suggest, there would be no private courses at all in areas that dont have 12 months to play golf

 

[PKorf]

Hell....our club (which is a part of a major conglomerate of worldwide clubs (ARCIS GOLF) received an email from the president of Arcis Golf letting us know that at every club around the country they would be providing us a FULL ONE MONTHS DUES CREDIT to use at the club by November. I thought that was WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY over the top. Now, I'm glad they did it, but it totally wasnt necessary and shows me how much they value their members.

 

[DG_1234]

This was my 1st thought on seeing the thread tittle, but I did not want to appear snarky about it. Glad you said it 1st

I wish there was a club worth joining around me, there are 5 Courses within 5 minutes of my house and none are worth joining or offer it to outsiders that do not live in the development.

The complaining I've heard is from members of a corporate owned private club. The corporation owns lots of real estate and other assets and is financially capable of paying for the upkeep of the club's facilities., continuing to pay the club's employees etc....
The above is different from a a proprietary membership club, which is owned my the club's membership.
The only club I am a member of is Sam's, so I have no skin in the game , but I do think the club's ownership (proprietary vs 3rd party owned) is relevant to answering the question about a members obligation to pay dues.

 

[tahoebum]

i respectfully totally disagree. Its also not the workers of that courses fault that all of this has happened. I signed up and became a member for a lot of different reason. In ohio, we really get the end of March through November....and thats if we are lucky to play. Based on your premise, I shouldnt have to pay anything for any months we dont play or have access to the pool? The restaurant and bar always remain open but on reduced hours. If it was done the way you suggest, there would be no private courses at all in areas that dont have 12 months to play golf

From my experience, in warm weather places not many rounds are played in the winter and many members don’t play much. At my last club in the Sacramento area the GM told me during a round one day that 60% of the members played less than 25 rounds per year. The club is typically open 358+ days a year if you take out a few rain days and average high temperatures dip below 60* for only two months. Dues were $850 month plus $125 food minimum so all those guys that were only playing 20 rounds a year were paying over $500 per round if you break it down. They likely got other things out of the club like working out or a place for their family to have dinner or use the pool that are hard to put a price on.

 

[Bryndom]

I would hope that private clubs would allow those with impacts to their families to defer payments a few months. I totally understand and try to support my local clubs in this time to help them keep operating; that consideration should cut both ways as well.

We just have to come together at this point to push through what is an unprecedented event in our lives...

 

[JB]

From my experience, in warm weather places not many rounds are played in the winter and many members don’t play much.

Can you explain this? The sunbelt area golf is packed all winter long.

 

[93civiccpe]

I'm not a member of a club but I respectfully disagree unless your membership has a clause about natural disasters that you signed up for. It's also different if your club voted and the members want to keep paying (and taking care of staff) which is noble. It isn't the staff's fault but it isn't the members fault either. I think private golf club membership is treated differently as it's seen as a privilege of the wealthy. It doesn't hold up to other businesses. Look at health clubs. Most have suspended memberships so the members don't have to pay while the gym is shut. Most of these businesses will file for assistance from the government. Imagine I'm your high speed internet provider and a substation catches fire and there's no longer internet at your house. It may take me a month to rebuild the substation and I have people that need to be paid. So you are okay continuing to pay and not get the service since you can afford the money?

 

[93civiccpe]

i respectfully totally disagree. Its also not the workers of that courses fault that all of this has happened. I signed up and became a member for a lot of different reason. In ohio, we really get the end of March through November....and thats if we are lucky to play. Based on your premise, I shouldnt have to pay anything for any months we dont play or have access to the pool? The restaurant and bar always remain open but on reduced hours. If it was done the way you suggest, there would be no private courses at all in areas that dont have 12 months to play golf

No, that's not what I said at all. You paid / joined with the understanding of what facilities were open at what parts of the year. You signed on with that understanding.

 

[PKorf]

From my experience, in warm weather places not many rounds are played in the winter and many members don’t play much. At my last club in the Sacramento area the GM told me during a round one day that 60% of the members played less than 25 rounds per year. The club is typically open 358+ days a year if you take out a few rain days and average high temperatures dip below 60* for only two months. Dues were $850 month plus $125 food minimum so all those guys that were only playing 20 rounds a year were paying over $500 per round if you break it down. They likely got other things out of the club like working out or a place for their family to have dinner or use the pool that are hard to put a price on.

Well.....my dues are nowhere near California dues but i get your point wholeheartedly. To @JB point.....I use the absolute crap out of my club golf wise, but it is also used for social events, pool, workout facilities (need to use those more) and maybe most importantly for my business purposes of networking with CEOs, CFOs, CIOs, COOs etc etc etc. I use the crap out of my place for way more than golf but i am probably one of a couplf of handfulls of guys who try and actually play more than once a week.

 

[JB]

I'm not a member of a club but I respectfully disagree unless your membership has a clause about natural disasters that you signed up for. It's also different if your club voted and the members want to keep paying (and taking care of staff) which is noble. It isn't the staff's fault but it isn't the members fault either. I think private golf club membership is treated differently as it's seen as a privilege of the wealthy. It doesn't hold up to other businesses. Look at health clubs. Most have suspended memberships so the members don't have to pay while the gym is shut. Most of these businesses will file for assistance from the government. Imagine I'm your high speed internet provider and a substation catches fire and there's no longer internet at your house. It may take me a month to rebuild the substation and I have people that need to be paid. So you are okay continuing to pay and not get the service since you can afford the money?

I totally get where you are coming from. Although I think ISP vs golf membership is a bit different. By that analogy, unless you could play, you don’t pay, including weather.

What if the club said okay no payments for 3 and everybody gets furloughed and go about business. Then 2 weeks later it’s safe to play and open again. Is the club now just a pay to play membership? Or are you paying a yearly fee to be a member broken down into monthly payments

 

[tahoebum]

Can you explain this? The sunbelt area golf is packed all winter long.

Northern California courses are dead in the winter. My club had only 10% of their total annual rounds between November 1st and March 15th according to our GM. Men’s and women’s leagues, club tournaments, and most golf activity shuts down in the winter. Maybe it’s all the skiers or the fact that many native Californians don’t like to go outside when it’s not sunny and under 70*. Nearly all the rain comes in the winter months even though most winter days are mid 50’s to mid 60’s for highs.

Snowbird locations like Arizona, Vegas, Palm Springs, and Florida are different as their populations increase dramatically in the winter.

 

[PKorf]

No, that's not what I said at all. You paid / joined with the understanding of what facilities were open at what parts of the year. You signed on with that understanding.

OK....well then how does that make it any different than how it is right now? Course just opened and was closed by the state on Thursday and then reopened today by reversing their course. Restaurant is closed but for takeout. Regardless of whether the weather permits play or not im paying for it and have been for the last X amount of months with zero golf. I guess I just dont see how its different if theres an issue like we are having now and I cant play anyways due to conditions.

 

[93civiccpe]

I totally get where you are coming from. Although I think ISP vs golf membership is a bit different. By that analogy, unless you could play, you don’t pay, including weather.

What if the club said okay no payments for 3 and everybody gets furloughed and go about business. Then 2 weeks later it’s safe to play and open again. Is the club now just a pay to play membership? Or are you paying a yearly fee to be a member broken down into monthly payments

That does make sense which is why the health club analogy is a better one. I was trying to find other similar examples that weren't as tied to the wealthy

 

[JB]

Northern California courses are dead in the winter. My club had only 10% of their total annual rounds between November 1st and March 15th according to our GM. Men’s and women’s leagues, club tournaments, and most golf activity shuts down in the winter. Maybe it’s all the skiers or the fact that many native Californians don’t like to go outside when it’s not sunny and under 70*. Nearly all the rain comes in the winter months even though most winter days are mid 50’s to mid 60’s for highs.

Snowbird locations like Arizona, Vegas, Palm Springs, and Florida are different as their populations increase dramatically in the winter.

I guess we just have different definitions of warmer climates

 

[tahoebum]

That does make sense which is why the health club analogy is a better one. I was trying to find other similar examples that weren't as tied to the wealthy

Yeah the health clubs are a good example and I can imagine it will be months before many people will want to go back into their health club again as they have to be one of the best places for a virus to spread.

 

[PKorf]

I dont see being a member at a private golf club....."a privilege of the wealthy". Im not wealthy by any means and im quite confident that a decent percentage of members at private clubs decide to make a decision that.....this is what im going to spend my money on. Some people hunt, buy boats, tennis, whatever the hobby is. I know a large % of guys at my club are retired blue collar workers who dont want o play public golf courses. Its NOT a "privilege of the wealthy"