Learning together about Launch Monitors

[obedt]

This is a complicated subject, and a bit of a rabbit hole. I started doing research very recently, and feel like I've learned some but have some huge gaps in knowledge. There's also a ton of misinformation out there- I was doing research when a tweet from Mr Vrska showed up fact-checking some "industry experts." Thought I'd start a thread to spread some info, have others correct my misinformation (please) and just have a quality, brand agnostic discussion.

And while the discussion I would prefer should be brand agnostic there is no issue in my mind making a recommendation: if you're looking for a home simulator room and have the budget, from everything I've read and seen, GCQuad or Hawk will provide the best performance. If that's all you're interested in, I won't make you read all the long winded stuff.

Ok, that disclaimer aside there's a cr*p ton to cover.

⦁ Differences between radar and camera based measurements
⦁ Indoor vs outdoor considerations
⦁ Differentiating what is being measured vs being calculated
⦁ Simulation software
⦁ Pricing

I don't pretend to know much at all, but wanted to open up the discussion. Note- there may be incorrect info here; this is per my understanding as I'm just now learning and I'd like a chance to edit any incorrect stuff as I really don't want to distribute wrong info.

 

[obedt]

Radar vs Camera based launch monitors:

Radar based systems (most famous ones include Trackman and Flightscope) emit a microwave signal that detects (is interfered with by) a moving object. The energy is reflected back to the device, which senses the signal. This allows the device to potentially track the club as well as the ball, and depending on the sensor a large % of the ball flight can be measured. In general, the more of the ball flight the unit can measure, the greater the accuracy. Placement is typically a certain distance behind the ball, lined up towards the ball and target generally in a straight line.

Camera based systems (Foresight, SkyTrak, Uneekor, HD Golf among others) use an array of advanced cameras to capture images just before, during and post-impact. Some will provide detailed measured information of what the club is doing during that time frame. Placement will either be a few feet beside the unit or overhead, ceiling-mounted.

 

[obedt]

Indoor vs Outdoor considerations:

In terms of data measurement, this will affect radar much more than camera based systems. In general, camera based are measuring a very specific time, so the amount of ball flight makes little difference. It has been reported by some (not all) that sunlight affects Skytrak specificially, and that divots can cause greater issues for camera-based over radar-based systems. Radar units are generally very accurate outdoors provided unlimited ball flight. Some will measure past the apex, or event the complete flight of the ball. All that helps to explain why some pros out on the range prefer a radar based system (in addition to placement of the unit).


Indoors, camera-based systems have a lot of advantages. First of all they require much less space. Room to swing a club and you can have the same accuracy of data regardless of space. Radar-based units need space between it and the ball, and then a certain amount of ball flight to estimate the rest. Trackman 4, for example, requires 10 feet from ball to net and 7 feet behind the ball. At that distance, companies rely on their algorithms to calculate the vast majority of the data. In order to help the unit, a metal dot is recommended to be placed on the ball, which gives the radar another data point (I believe this is particularly helpful for it to measure spin). With this limited amount of ball flight, units will generally have more difficulty with spin axis indoors over outdoors. Things like gear effect have been a difficult effect to model.

 

[obedt]

Measured vs calculated data:

Camera-based systems have the ability to measure:
⦁ Ball Speed
⦁ Spin rate
⦁ Launch Angle
⦁ Azimuth (Start Line)
⦁ Spin Axis
⦁ Club head Speed
⦁ Angle of Attack
⦁ Club Path
⦁ Face Angle
⦁ Lie Angle
⦁ Loft at Impact
⦁ Impact location (although I believe this to be an estimation based on how the user places stickers on the club face)

Radar-based systems measure the speed of things in motion. They have the ability to measure the ball flight outdoors. Depending on the unit, some may only capture part of if or the totality of the flight. This allows them to measure:
⦁ Carry (outdoors only)
⦁ Apex (outdoors only)
⦁ Ball Speed
⦁ Spin rate
⦁ Launch Angle
⦁ Azimuth (Start Line)
⦁ Club head Speed
⦁ Angle of Attack
⦁ Club Path
⦁ Face Angle


So, that's a lot of potential measurements, but there's some important info missing too. Spin rate (brain fart) Smash factor is always a calculation. Companies will use algorithms to complete the picture. Camera-based systems use algorithms to calculate what the ball flight will look like - carry, height, descent angle, yards offline, etc based off snapshots early on. Radar-based will likewise do the same to complete the ball flight. As mentioned above, indoors they have very limited ball flight measured and put more demand on their calculation methodologies and algorithms.

 

[obedt]

Calculation models:

Every company needs to calculate much of its data. Particularly in indoors scenarios. In fact, different simulation software have their own algorithms as well. LMs will provide certain data to the software and from there the rest of the information is calculated. Environmental data will also play an effect, and some LMs and software input that into their calculation algorithms.

As an example, Flightscope offers different apps for its Mevo+. Its FS Golf app takes into acount environmental effects, while FS Skills won't. This leads to a slight difference in carry yards, etc, despite having the exact same flight algorithm and base data.

Software like TGC2019 has a complaint about an unrealistic first hop. e6 Connect seems to overestimate the effect of spin into a green. They're all a little bit different

 

[obedt]

Just as an aside, as these become more consumer-friendly I think it’s useful information to have. Some are available at $200 and others can shoot up to or past $30k. That was my reasoning for starting the thread, there’s a big variation available and its a growing segment in golf equipment.

 

[vgolfman]

Some strong info here. One other thing to consider on anything calculated is that there is typically only one ball model used and you don’t know what that is. So real life (especially spin) can be different. Also, I totally understand the desire to keep this thread brand agnostic, but brands/models vary GREATLY on what is measured and what is calculated. Typically, the more you pay the more that is measured. Some of the cheaper units, while accurate in what they measure, only measure a few things and calculate A LOT of things. Do your research before you buy!

 

[obedt]

Some strong info here. One other thing to consider on anything calculated is that there is typically only one ball model used and you don’t know what that is. So real life (especially spin) can be different. Also, I totally understand the desire to keep this thread brand agnostic, but brands/models vary GREATLY on what is measured and what is calculated. Typically, the more you pay the more that is measured. Some of the cheaper units, while accurate in what they measure, only measure a few things and calculate A LOT of things. Do your research before you buy!

Thanks Michael, always awesome when you chime in. To your point about brands... there are reasons why Trackman and Foresight are seen as leaders in the area. I don’t know the ins and outs, but it speaks to the quality of both their hardware and software. They’re both pretty much unquestioned at the top.

I can see why a pro at the range may prefer Trackman and a fitter indoors preferring quad, but from what I’ve read they are both very capable in all scenarios.

 

[H8tobogie]

Good thread. I am waiting on the Mevo+ and have considered canceling my order as it has been pushed out to August for delivery. So, I will be lurking to learn more. @obedt - didn't you order the Mevo+ as well?

 

[BigMac]

Great thread, following along to learn. I'm definitely not in the high-end market, but would love to eventually find a lower-end unit that's at least reasonably accurate.

 

[obedt]

Good thread. I am waiting on the Mevo+ and have considered canceling my order as it has been pushed out to August for delivery. So, I will be lurking to learn more. @obedt - didn't you order the Mevo+ as well?

Thanks man.

I did order. Latest ship date was July 6. I'm going to give it a couple weeks before checking in-again but can keep you updated. Looks like their latest firmware update (.09) has the unit working well. Early product growing pains going on, but the company has apparently been very diligent in getting updates pushed.

Edit- fwiw, I chose the Mevo+ because of 1-budget, 2- my hitting area is outdoors. If I could have stretched my budget more I would have gone in a different direction but that wasn't in the cards. Pricing plays a huge part like Mr Vrska mentioned.

 

[obedt]

Great thread, following along to learn. I'm definitely not in the high-end market, but would love to eventually find a lower-end unit that's at least reasonably accurate.

Thanks man. What do you consider lower end? I don't have experience with many LMs but have been reading and reading, and if we want to grow the thread we can probably get input from forum members with experience on different ones.

 

[BigMac]

Thanks man. What do you consider lower end? I don't have experience with many LMs but have been reading and reading, and if we want to grow the thread we can probably get input from forum members with experience on different ones.

My "lower end" would be in the $500 and under range. I mean, ideally it would be nice to find one for $250 that was something more than a random number generator, but that's probably a pipe dream for the foreseeable future.

 

[obedt]

My "lower end" would be in the $500 and under range. I mean, ideally it would be nice to find one for $250 that was something more than a random number generator, but that's probably a pipe dream for the foreseeable future.

I haven't seen any camera-based in that range, but there are some radar units I believe. Swing Caddie SC200 is said to give solid carry #s and I've read positive things about the PRGR: https://superspeedgolf.com/products/prgr-black-pocket-launch-monitor

Up a little bit from those, the Mevo has some cool apps and features.

Would it be for hitting into a net or at the range?

At that price point you won't get things starting direction, and spin data will probably be off.

 

[chile]

As a career "RADAR" guy, I am curious what the update rate is on these systems...it would have to be pretty fast to provide tracking... That would explain part of the expense...

 

[H8tobogie]

Thanks man.

I did order. Latest ship date was July 6. I'm going to give it a couple weeks before checking in-again but can keep you updated. Looks like their latest firmware update (.09) has the unit working well. Early product growing pains going on, but the company has apparently been very diligent in getting updates pushed.

Edit- fwiw, I chose the Mevo+ because of 1-budget, 2- my hitting area is outdoors. If I could have stretched my budget more I would have gone in a different direction but that wasn't in the cards. Pricing plays a huge part like Mr Vrska mentioned.

Thanks! I haven't been following the issues and updates so anything you find you would be helpful. Seems like Flightscope is pretty committed to making this unit very capable. FWIW - I am in the same boat as you in that I can afford this unit, but not ready to shell out more and will use it mainly outdoors.

 

[-CRW-]

Just my opinion, but most of the affordable models can’t tell you anything you can’t see/discern watching the ball flight. So they are really only worth the money to me if you’re going to use it to hit into a net. Just to have a rough idea of what your ball flight should look like.

 

[obedt]

I know I'm going to leave some off inadvertently since I'm going off memory. Will edit as others are pointed out:

No experience with ernest sports, and honestly not everything I've read has been positive in terms of firmware updates, bug fixes, etc.
Ernest Sports: https://www.ernestsports.com/
ES12: $199.99
ES14: $495
ESB1: $550
ES Tour: $2700
ES 20/20: $10,000


The SC100 and 200 had positive reviews; the 300 not so much
Swing Caddie: https://voicecaddie.com/product-category/practice/swing-caddie/
SC100: $269.99
SC200/200+: $349.99
SC300: $499.99


PRGR Black $199.99 Not much info on this one


Flightscope started out as a ballistics company, and are now involved in multiple sports. Safe to say the provide products at the widest array of price points right now
Flightscope: https://flightscope.com/shop/

Portable Golf Launch Monitors and Simulators - FlightScope

The best affordable portable personal launch monitors and simulators in golf. FlightScope Mevo includes a ball flight tracker and swing monitor mobile app.

www.flightscopemevo.com

Mevo: $499
Mevo+: $1,999
Xi - Series - ~$5,000
X2 Elite - ~12,000
X3 - ~$13,000


Really interesting, fairly new camera-based product line from Uneekor. https://www.uneekor.com/
Uneekor QED: Packages starting around $6,000
Uneekor Eye XO: Not sure on this one, believe starting price will be around $9 or 10K



One of the two considered industry standards
Trackman: https://trackmangolf.com/
Trackman 3e: $11,995 (cpo)
Trackman 4: Indoor: $18,995. Indoor/Outdoor: $24,995


And the other that is considered as an industry heavyweight:
Foresight Sports: https://www.foresightsports.com/
GC2: $5,400 (cpo)
GC2+HMT: $10,300 (cpo)
GCQuad: $9,900 (cpo), $11,000 new
GCHawk: $16,000

 

[obedt]

Thanks! I haven't been following the issues and updates so anything you find you would be helpful. Seems like Flightscope is pretty committed to making this unit very capable. FWIW - I am in the same boat as you in that I can afford this unit, but not ready to shell out more and will use it mainly outdoors.

You're right, they appear to be very proactive in fixing issues so far.

Biggest issue so far - the main board is a Raspberry Pi. The issue that causes is that the power inputs are very specific. You pretty much HAVE to use the included charging cable which is only a foot long. The battery lasts about an hour and a half. Power bricks with 2.1 and 2.4a outputs will both work. Unfortunately some have fried their units by using the wrong cable, using a surge protector, etc.

Other reported issues - a little bit of a right spin bias indoors which was fixed in the latest firmware. Also struggles with driver launch angle and spin on very high swing speeds or too short of a distance. 10 feet of ball flight has fixed this for most. Only 8' and it struggles

 

[jim54]

Very interesting topic, thanks Obedt

 

[dthrog00]

My area is is very short, maybe 6 ft. behind the ball and 3-4 before the net, so I think I’m very limited in what I can use. I had a Skytrak, but sold it because I had unlimited range access, obviously events changes that. I’d love to get a monitor that shows what the ball is doing besides backspin. I’m pretty sure the mevo and mevo+ are out because of my short distances. I think I could use one of the foresight models(prices are pretty high), or most likely back to Skytrak. Suggestions?

The Mevo needs 8 feet of flight so it is out.

Dave

 

[H8tobogie]

You're right, they appear to be very proactive in fixing issues so far.

Biggest issue so far - the main board is a Raspberry Pi. The issue that causes is that the power inputs are very specific. You pretty much HAVE to use the included charging cable which is only a foot long. The battery lasts about an hour and a half. Power bricks with 2.1 and 2.4a outputs will both work. Unfortunately some have fried their units by using the wrong cable, using a surge protector, etc.

Other reported issues - a little bit of a right spin bias indoors which was fixed in the latest firmware. Also struggles with driver launch angle and spin on very high swing speeds or too short of a distance. 10 feet of ball flight has fixed this for most. Only 8' and it struggles

Good update! I was aware of the spin issue and the cable. I bought the recommended power brick that will up the life to about 6 hours, so the battery life doesn't worry me. Will be a fun unit if it will ever arrive.

 

[obedt]

My area is is very short, maybe 6 ft. behind the ball and 3-4 before the net, so I think I’m very limited in what I can use. I had a Skytrak, but sold it because I had unlimited range access, obviously events changes that. I’d love to get a monitor that shows what the ball is doing besides backspin. I’m pretty sure the mevo and mevo+ are out because of my short distances. I think I could use one of the foresight models(prices are pretty high), or most likely back to Skytrak. Suggestions?

Yep, my options are few, I got sc-200 in the interim.

Yeah, you're looking at camera-based for sure. Skytrak is good bang for your buck there. Wanting to take the unit with you to the range too or primarily home use?

 

[Snickerdog]

Going to take a bit to digest all the info here. Amazing

 

[obedt]

Just indoor. So yeah Skytrak probably. Unless I decide to break the bank and go GCQuad. That would work with short ball flight?

In terms of cost, I think it would kinda look like this for you:

Skytrak ($2000) -> Uneekor ($6000) -> GC2 ($5400 preowned) -> GCQuad -> (S10-11K)

It's a big jump from Skytrak up in terms of cost. One of the admittedly few issues with Foresight is cost of ownership. Their software is expensive, there's an optional maintenance plan that could be considered, etc.

Quality/capacity of the cameras is something to consider. There's a big price jump, but there is a big jump in the quality of both the cameras, but also the algorithms and modeling the companies do.

All of those are camera based and just need a couple feet of ball flight. Uneekor recommends 12 feet to the net, but that is only based on bounce back and not hurting yourself