Hamfist
I promise not to murder Canadan.
I'm intrigued. (Owning a short and quick backswing myself.) What is the swing like nowadays? All the way to parallel?
Amateur approach shot trends, reliable studies, fallacies, ramifications, etc...
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- #52
Realize I'm not at all defending those who select clubs based off that one perfect strike when all the stars aligned 4 years ago. I believe most avid golfers eventually figure out they'll be buying the beer more often than their buddies buy if they always club based on delusional ego. So while I agree that taking more club might improve tempo/rhythm/contact for SOME, it will also be detrimental for the tempo/rhythm/ contact for OTHERS.
I've done exactly that (play rounds deliberately selecting more club) several times of the past 5-7 years. Gave it a good chance too by committing several consecutive rounds to the experiment. Sometimes the (early) results were promising; generating decent GIR days and decent scores. Other times it's been the opposite. Poor off the get go and no tangible improvement several rounds in. Always though, even if the results early were good, doubt and poor ball striking would ultimately permeate throughout my approach game because I was in effect playing to miss it a little more than normal.
I listed my own results over 24 rounds this spring. In your expert opinion @DG_1234 , seeing my results above and realizing I probably swing better committing to a positive expectation, am I the type amateur golfer who would benefit from clubbing up consistently?
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I understand the guidance here and have heard it for the majority of my golfing life. The problem here is that it assumes the ONLY GOAL is to not be short of the green, which is basically the 'never up, never in' mentality. That's great, but IMO a little short sighted for anyone that's not just starting out. For me personally, as an amateur and a hacker at that, I miss left/right more than long/short. My tendencies are definitely skewed to a left miss, but I'll leave one out right when I over compensate. In the long/short comparison, I absolutely leave more short than long, but like others most of the courses I play aren't very forgiving long of the green. I'll actively err on the side of short to minimize the impact of a missed shot in those cases. I think the much more sound advice is to aim for the center of the green, taking any variables into account of course. I don't do this on every shot, but it's my default starting point when I'm looking at an approach.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Oh no, not with irons. Maybe almost to parallel with the driver if I'm feeling particularly limber. A few years back when I was doing yoga every day my driver swing was exactly parallel at the top.
Looking at my most recent (pre-COVID) swing lesson video I'd say a mid-iron is probably 20 degrees of so short of getting to parallel. Any farther than that only happens when I lift my hands or collapse my arms at the top, after my shoulder turn has stopped.
In terms of tempo, I used an app to frame-by-frame compare my swing tempo to Matt Fitzpatrick. He's the fastest-tempo good player I'm familiar with. For what it's worth, he actually finishes his swing slightly quicker than I do even though he makes a much fuller turn and bigger arc. But my tempo is quicker than anyone I play golf with, for sure.
DG_1234
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First, I don't consider myself to be an "expert". More accurate i think is that I am guy who has for decades watched up close lots of high skill level golf and also plenty of hacker golf.
If you have committed to the habit of selecting more club, done for several rounds of golf, that means you have experienced what I guess 99% of players never do. So if you've tried it and learned the results were mixed and, or, negative for your game, then I say move on to other opportunities, ways to improve your game. What matters is that you've tried it for a fair amount of time (which is different from most players who try something for just a few shots and then soon abandon same).
Sorry I don't see the shot results you reference, are they displayed in this thread or somewhere else ? In general I believe nearly all players can benefit from adopting the habit of clubbing up. On Tour it's not unusual for a player to swing a 7-iron for a shot where he could (if he wanted to) alter his technique so as to reach the target with an 8-iron, or even a 9-iron. Clubbing up was more common in the days of small heads and balata balls, but the benefits it provides to a player's swing and shot consistency are still relevant today, even when using modern equipment.
I used to miss short quite a bit. It wasn't just chunked shots. Even on well struck shots I often did not play enough club. Sometimes that was wind-related. I would over estimate wind help and underestimate wind block. Or I was afraid of greenside bunkers, playing for a short layup or false front roll off catch area. And on my home course most of the greens are small and elevated with steep 3-5 foot banks down.
They are also firm and hard to hold. Anything to the side or long will bounce significant distances into who knows where. Short was pragmatic. Last year and more so this year I have made a point to play a little more club. And according to Across, my miss is mostly long (and equal balance to left/right misses). In practice, I don't find that any better than short. I need to dial in distance control, but with variable, swirling winds common on most days, getting that right is not so simple. I made a conscious choice to play new irons and shafts that give me a lower flight. That may help, but those clubs are also more forgiving (and hotter, longer). I am finding it harder to control distance with them with the tradeoff that mishits don't lose much in terms of distance. And so goes the golf battle.
They are also firm and hard to hold. Anything to the side or long will bounce significant distances into who knows where. Short was pragmatic. Last year and more so this year I have made a point to play a little more club. And according to Across, my miss is mostly long (and equal balance to left/right misses). In practice, I don't find that any better than short. I need to dial in distance control, but with variable, swirling winds common on most days, getting that right is not so simple. I made a conscious choice to play new irons and shafts that give me a lower flight. That may help, but those clubs are also more forgiving (and hotter, longer). I am finding it harder to control distance with them with the tradeoff that mishits don't lose much in terms of distance. And so goes the golf battle.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Several years ago over the course of a summer I went back and played a few rounds (maybe 5 or 6?) at the cheap public course where I learned to play. It was basically built out in a pasture without much of a "design". The guy who owned the land just pushed up little dinky greens and laid out fairways between them. Almost no water hazards or bunkers to speak of and the greens are so small and rock-hard the GIR stat goes right out the window.
I remember thinking how those little greens reminded me of the display in Arccos or some other shot-tracking app. Kind of circle and being left or right, short or long on most holes was much of a muchness. If you were 10 yards off the green in any direction you just used putter or bumped the ball onto the green with an 8-iron. And if you were on the green then every putt was a birdie opportunity because you were generally withing 20 feet of the hole.
Back then just making contact for 18 holes was tough enough. But when distance and direction hardly matter at all and there's no trade-offs, no strategy it's actually possible golf to get...dare I say it...boring. Score comes down to how many putts you made or missed and how solidly you hit the ball all day. Not really possible to affect the score much by shot selection or short-game wizardry.
I remember thinking how those little greens reminded me of the display in Arccos or some other shot-tracking app. Kind of circle and being left or right, short or long on most holes was much of a muchness. If you were 10 yards off the green in any direction you just used putter or bumped the ball onto the green with an 8-iron. And if you were on the green then every putt was a birdie opportunity because you were generally withing 20 feet of the hole.
Back then just making contact for 18 holes was tough enough. But when distance and direction hardly matter at all and there's no trade-offs, no strategy it's actually possible golf to get...dare I say it...boring. Score comes down to how many putts you made or missed and how solidly you hit the ball all day. Not really possible to affect the score much by shot selection or short-game wizardry.
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- #59
Thanks, I agree looking elsewhere might be more valuable in my case but am always open to learn.
The shot results were detailed on the last page but essentially my distribution was:
>20 yards short of Green 6.7%
Short of Green but inside 20 yards 12.9%
Green high lateral misses 20.8%
Hit Green (or Front Fringe) but more than 12 feet short of hole high 20.1%
Hit Green within 12 feet of hole high 12.2%
Hit Green (or Back Fringe) but more than 12 feet long of hole high 18.0%
Long of Green but inside 20 yards 6.7%
>20 yards long of Green 2.5%
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DG_1234
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I don't know if your goal is to improve tee-to-green ball striking, or scoring, or both.
For tee-to-green ball striking it's about learning a swing technique that one can repeat day after day, round after round, year after round, so that control of the golf ball is consistently good, effective. Swings don't have to look pretty. Shots don't have to fly on high trajectories or carry prodigious distances. What matters is the player having a consistently reliable swing that produces consistent shots, which means controlling the ball well from tee to green.
For scoring hitting greens in regulation is somewhat overrated. What matters is leaving the ball in good playable position on or near the green, and then having a sensational short game to chip/pitch/bunker play/putt the ball to the hole. A few guys I play with rarely hit more than 9 greens for the day but their 18 hole score is almost always par or better. When they miss greens their ball is left in a position from which it is easy for them to get the next shot next to the hole, and they consistently do that.
Chances are good that the guy with the pretty swing who hits it solid all day en route to 13 or 14 greens in regulation but poor short game skills is going to get beat by the guy with the sensational short game who hits only 7 to 9 greens in regulation , while all day leaving his ball in good position next to the greens he misses.
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Most greens are 30 yards deep, so if I have 135 to the center, I know I have 150 to the back, and 120 to the front. If there is a hazard in front of the green, I will hit my 145 club. If I miss hit it, I can still make the green, if I take my 135 club and miss hit it, I end up in the hazard. Even if I flush it, I am still on the back of the green and putting.
What's in front of and behind the green definitely affects my club selection. If short is safe and long is dead, I'll take my chances with coming up short; if there are hazards in front of the green and long is a safe miss, I'll club up and deal with it if I miss long.
One hole on my home course always comes to mind when these discussions come up:
It's a 330 yard par 4. Everything left of the fringe around the green runs steeply downhill to the pond, so obviously left is dead. Behind the green, everything beyond the fringe runs steeply downhill to a rocky creek feeding from that pond, and the rough is short enough that it won't stop a ball. If you go long, or if you hit a thin shot that runs through the green, your ball is wet and you're taking a drop and a penalty stroke, with a steep 8' uphill off a tight lie to get back to the green. Our greens are usually on the hard side and not particularly receptive, so if you land center of the green there's not much chance you're going to get a drop and stop - there's a much better chance it's going to roll toward (or off) the back of the green. The darker spot short and right of the green is a little valley that will catch balls - if I have a long approach shot that I don't feel good about, I'm perfectly happy to aim for that valley and play an easy pitch up onto the green for my next shot.
You don't ever want to miss long here - my club selection will be front of the green yardage - if I miss short, my next shot is a simple chip or bump and run; if I hit my yardage, hopefully it'll land on the front of the green and roll out toward the middle, leaving me a decent chance at a two-putt at worst. It's real easy to turn a 4 into a 6 or 7 by missing left or long.
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Scanning the discussion, it appears I approach this differently than most of you. When I analyze my data and tendencies and find something, my next step is usually to determine what skill I need to develop or improve that will help me improve my results.
Early on it was things like learning to make solid contact, so the distances each club traveled became more predictable. Later on, I was learning to hit partial shots, so I had more precise distance control. Turns out that also helps reduce dispersion right and left once you learn to hit partial shots. More recently, I've focused on alignment to get more precise right and left.
On another track, I've analyzed patterns to determine what risks are worth taking and which are not. Not all misses are bad or have the same potential impact on scoring. For example, I learned to get more aggressive on most back pins as my skills improved. When my chipping skills were so-so a ball that went long was a nightmare. It was the equivalent of being short-sided without the skills to get up and down. So, I'd purposely go for the fat of the green, more often than not leaving a long putt that almost always resulted in 2-3 putts. When I improved my short game I learned to be more aggressive with those approach shots, unless the rough is REALLY gnarly. This gets the ball closer to the hole and results in quite a few 1-putts. A miss long results in an up and down more often than not, and occasionally gets chipped in.
Early on it was things like learning to make solid contact, so the distances each club traveled became more predictable. Later on, I was learning to hit partial shots, so I had more precise distance control. Turns out that also helps reduce dispersion right and left once you learn to hit partial shots. More recently, I've focused on alignment to get more precise right and left.
On another track, I've analyzed patterns to determine what risks are worth taking and which are not. Not all misses are bad or have the same potential impact on scoring. For example, I learned to get more aggressive on most back pins as my skills improved. When my chipping skills were so-so a ball that went long was a nightmare. It was the equivalent of being short-sided without the skills to get up and down. So, I'd purposely go for the fat of the green, more often than not leaving a long putt that almost always resulted in 2-3 putts. When I improved my short game I learned to be more aggressive with those approach shots, unless the rough is REALLY gnarly. This gets the ball closer to the hole and results in quite a few 1-putts. A miss long results in an up and down more often than not, and occasionally gets chipped in.
greenOak
Well-known member
I have some nice numbers from this year:
100-150: 32% Long, 32% Short
150-200: 39% Long, 39% Short
I miss short far more than long from 200+ which should be expected - especially when every lay up gets tracked as "short".
Worth noting my stats programs tracks short/long on any missed green. So if I miss a green left but its 1 yard short of pin high, it will count as "short". I used to use gamegolf which only tracked shots that were at least 15 yards short or 15 yards long. Naturally it said I missed short more than long simply because its quite difficult to miss very long (bladed wedges being the exception). Far easier to miss massively short - chunks, tops, shanks, etc.
100-150: 32% Long, 32% Short
150-200: 39% Long, 39% Short
I miss short far more than long from 200+ which should be expected - especially when every lay up gets tracked as "short".
Worth noting my stats programs tracks short/long on any missed green. So if I miss a green left but its 1 yard short of pin high, it will count as "short". I used to use gamegolf which only tracked shots that were at least 15 yards short or 15 yards long. Naturally it said I missed short more than long simply because its quite difficult to miss very long (bladed wedges being the exception). Far easier to miss massively short - chunks, tops, shanks, etc.
Yeah, that sucks. What one are you using now to track shots?
Et Tu Brute?
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Pretty sure Game Golf, Arccos and V1 Game (the three GPS-based apps I've used) all compute the short/long/left/right for all shots from a given distance range. They don't have any automatic way to know a shot is a "layup", at least not to my knowledge. Not sure about ShotScope. The one advantage to V1 Game over the other two is at least it can (more or less) properly deal with "Recovery" or "Obstructed" shots, at least in Strokes Gained terms. But that's more for SG calculations rather than the Proximity graphs.
It's not really a problem for the 200+ distances where (for me) every shot is either a planned layup or I'm hitting as close to the green as possible knowing I'm not going to get there. The only problem shots in the shorter ranges are when you're punching out of the trees or hacking out of the rough and therefore are forced to layup.
Depending on the app there are ways to finesse that sort of thing but to me it doesn't seem worth messing with. When my stats show short 32% of the time I know that's probably something like 25-30% plain old coming up short and a few percent those sorts of recovery or forced layups from bad lies.
That's one of many reason I only use shot-tracking periodically to "check in" on the status of my game. Whatever system I'm using at the time, I tend to capture 10-20 rounds maybe three times a year and see if anything unusual is going on. The limitations of the tracking and analysis are such that I personally don't feel it's worth the effort to track 100+ rounds to get whatever information is practical to extract.
Scooby555
Well-known member
Just few of my thoughts. Probably gonna be long winded...Sorry in advance. I've been playing around 8 months now and have broken 90 twice and usually live in the mid 90s now. Knowing club averages for carry has helped me greatly
As to the OP's question...I have no idea what my percentages are on being short. The below is how I got closer to the green on approach shots.
Finding my carry averages has helped me more than anything else so far.
I use a SC300 launch monitor that I picked up really cheaply. I will hit 60 balls at a time with say my 8 iron. Once I get to around 100 balls the averages start to get fairly stable. I know my average carry for each club and also my max distance on a great shot.
This is how I choose my clubs. Let's say I have 100 yards to the middle of the green. I do not pin hunt yet as I am not that good. I know that my PW average is 98. There is a certain % that I will duff and thin, so I don't worry about those. My swing speed isn't robot consistent so another variation there. I pick the middle of the green and the club with the closest average to that distance. My goal is +- 5 yards to the center(usually it's +- 10 yards). Slightly off the toe and I'm a little short. Hit it good and gonna be past the center. Outside of the duff to 80 yards and the thin to 120, I know about 80%-85% of the time, I will be close to average. I have roughly 15-20 bad shots per 100 in my data. I'll deal with the recovery shot when needed and try not to blow up the hole. I am also getting to the point where I am factoring in lie and above\below feet, etc but having the base averages makes choosing the correct club for me much easier.
As I said, i'm not good but trying to get better. This is a lot of range work for me to gather the data I use as I don't have Arccos, GPS watch, etc. I assume those devices can give you distance data though. My playing partner has a watch, which is how i know the middle distances. My approach to approach shots is to get a putt. I feel I can 2 putt from anywhere(not always the case lol), so getting to the putter is key for me. I'd rather have a 30 ft putt than a 30 ft chip. I feel much more confident getting that putt within 5 ft than being able to chip it within 5 ft consistently. I know, practice more but I can only practice so much at a time.
As to the OP's question...I have no idea what my percentages are on being short. The below is how I got closer to the green on approach shots.
Finding my carry averages has helped me more than anything else so far.
I use a SC300 launch monitor that I picked up really cheaply. I will hit 60 balls at a time with say my 8 iron. Once I get to around 100 balls the averages start to get fairly stable. I know my average carry for each club and also my max distance on a great shot.
This is how I choose my clubs. Let's say I have 100 yards to the middle of the green. I do not pin hunt yet as I am not that good. I know that my PW average is 98. There is a certain % that I will duff and thin, so I don't worry about those. My swing speed isn't robot consistent so another variation there. I pick the middle of the green and the club with the closest average to that distance. My goal is +- 5 yards to the center(usually it's +- 10 yards). Slightly off the toe and I'm a little short. Hit it good and gonna be past the center. Outside of the duff to 80 yards and the thin to 120, I know about 80%-85% of the time, I will be close to average. I have roughly 15-20 bad shots per 100 in my data. I'll deal with the recovery shot when needed and try not to blow up the hole. I am also getting to the point where I am factoring in lie and above\below feet, etc but having the base averages makes choosing the correct club for me much easier.
As I said, i'm not good but trying to get better. This is a lot of range work for me to gather the data I use as I don't have Arccos, GPS watch, etc. I assume those devices can give you distance data though. My playing partner has a watch, which is how i know the middle distances. My approach to approach shots is to get a putt. I feel I can 2 putt from anywhere(not always the case lol), so getting to the putter is key for me. I'd rather have a 30 ft putt than a 30 ft chip. I feel much more confident getting that putt within 5 ft than being able to chip it within 5 ft consistently. I know, practice more but I can only practice so much at a time.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
It's not something you can do quickly and it takes a little bit of in-round work but the best way to know real-world distances (as opposed to swing after swing after swing with the same club on the driving range) is to carry a little notebook in your pocket. Laser the flag before your approach shots and every time you hit one solidly, write down:
distance to the flag
how far long or short you were
any notes about conditions (uphill, downhill, wind, cold temps, etc)
Once you've accumulated several good swings with each club under varying conditions you may discover that the results on-course differ somewhat from your distances with repeated shots on the range. For most people their 60 shot in a row swing is very different than their one-off swing when they're playing for score.
DG_1234
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I agree that on the course is the best way to learn one's carry yardages. But I disagree that only "solidly struck" shots should be counted. For example, if a player is at a skill level where only 2 out of 10 shots are struck solid, then using only those two to establish/learn carry yardages will likely lead to a habit of selecting too little club for approach shots.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
I don't think we need any further back and forth to establish that we fundamentally are 100% opposite in our thinking on that subject.
Scooby555
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There is no one size fits all. A + handicap will approach this differently than a -7 whos skillset is not the same as a +15 who is very different from someone trying to break 100 for the 1st time. No need for me to graph all my short shots YET as hitting the ball more consistently is a much higher priority for me at the moment
Repetition is a wonderful tool. Especially to someone new to the game. The more balls I hit, the more consistent my swing and contact points become. The more consistent those 2 items are the more accurate I become with distance and direction. I am lucky in that the range is 10 minutes from my office and I get stop by for an hour every day after work.
For someone like me On the Job training at the course is too frustrating and time consuming to do. A 2 handicap is already much more accurate than I am. My 98 average distance with PW at the range is close enough to the course for me. If it's +- 5, 10, 20 yards off it's OK as I only have to reach the green in 3 and 2 putt to get my bogey. 18 bogeys is 90 and 90 is par for me right now. You guys on the other hand must be much more accurate as you are playing against par 72 and need to be on in 2.
This is working well for me...may not for anyone else.
And thanks for the feedback...I think it will be useful in the future once I am striking the ball a bit more consistently.
Repetition is a wonderful tool. Especially to someone new to the game. The more balls I hit, the more consistent my swing and contact points become. The more consistent those 2 items are the more accurate I become with distance and direction. I am lucky in that the range is 10 minutes from my office and I get stop by for an hour every day after work.
For someone like me On the Job training at the course is too frustrating and time consuming to do. A 2 handicap is already much more accurate than I am. My 98 average distance with PW at the range is close enough to the course for me. If it's +- 5, 10, 20 yards off it's OK as I only have to reach the green in 3 and 2 putt to get my bogey. 18 bogeys is 90 and 90 is par for me right now. You guys on the other hand must be much more accurate as you are playing against par 72 and need to be on in 2.
This is working well for me...may not for anyone else.
And thanks for the feedback...I think it will be useful in the future once I am striking the ball a bit more consistently.
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What you are trying to do is admirable. The hard work will pay off. A couple of tips to help.
1. Range balls are notorious for being short of what you'll carry with most off the shelf golf balls. Mat vs. grass will also affect distance and dispersion. I wouldn't say don't try to do measurements on the range, but I would say gather as much on course data and learn what adjustments you need to make on both carry and total distances.
2. Consider where you deviations are coming from most often as well as most severe and work on improving the skill set that will most positively affect those results. Then as you do, re-evaluate your approach shot strategy. What you are doing now makes perfect sense for where you are today. But in order to take advantage as you improve, you'll need to change your approach strategy. For example as your dispersion and number of miss-hits improves you can start aiming for a quarter or half of a green instead of the fat of the whole (depending on where the pin and trouble is).
greenOak
Well-known member
I’ve been using myroundpro since last year. Couldn’t get gamegolf to work on my new phone.
GameGolf goes by what they refer to as "typical" distances for each club. It's not an average distance because they disregard shots that are very short. They do this because, depending on skill level, those would be duffs, punches or partial swings. The methodology makes sense to me.
I still have to take those "typical" distances with a grain of salt. I play a short course which means an iron often gets pulled for a tee shot. I think those tee shots inflate the distances somewhat. The only thing the app does is reinforce or disprove what I think is happening on the course. It's not as hard to figure out as some make it out to be.
Great point. I wonder if certain low cappers really understand what the reality is for higher cappers. As though the difference between a decent swing and one that's off-center or weak is only going to be 10 yards.
Btw, @Scooby555 if you've broken 90 and are playing in the mid 90's after only 8 months, you're obviously doing something right. Keep up the good work!
orchard53
Active member
maybe because you swing hard to hit perfect? I'm trying to use three quarter swing or club to back of green and try to swing smooth.