Another HCP Discussion

[kevin81002]

I'm fascinated by everyone here's thought on the handicap system that I've read in previous threads, so I thought I'd run what happened today by you guys. My partner and I qualified for our club's 4 ball match play, and we had our first match this morning. Here's how it played out.

My team: my course hcp is 10, and my partner is a 1, which means I get 8 pops.

The other team: one guy gets 15 pops, and the other gets 19.

Through the front 9, my partner is even par, and I'm +3, and we're down 4. Through 12 holes, my partner is still even par, I'm +4, and we lose 7&6. The 20hcp player shot 41 on the front, and shot 84 overall. Most of the damage on his back 9 came after the match was closed out... he was even on the back through 12. The 16hcp shot 42 on the front, and 84 overall... he was actually -1 on the back through 12. All Todd and I could do was laugh. They were net -7 at the turn and net -10 by the time they closed us out on 12. We just ran in to a buzzsaw of pops and there was nothing we could do about it. 3 birdies total between my partner and I through the 12th... all were either halved or lost holes.

Now I'm not trying to say they were sandbagging. I know both of the guys we played against. They both actually play in my normal Saturday group (the 20 every Saturday, the 16 hasn't played with us in a while.) The 20hcp guy literally shoots mid-high 90s every week. The 16 is questionable as I seem to remember playing him even a couple years ago, but that's for a different discussion. It just sort of made me think about whether or not the handicapping system actually makes things even, or really favors the higher handicapped golfer.

What do you guys think?

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[DataDude]

It should make things 50/50. That said it favors an improving golfer and hurts a golfer who is getting worse a bit imo.

 

[Tee/Ski]

This is why I stopped playing tournaments. Y'all were honest and doing the right thing but it doesn't matter when the other party chooses not to.

#integrity.

 

[mpeterson]

It should make things 50/50. That said it favors an improving golfer and hurts a golfer who is getting worse a bit imo.

The “favors the improving golfer” is something a lot of people don’t remember when they’re looking at those probability tables to say how likely it is for someone to shoot X many strokes better than their handicap. Those all assume that the handicap is pretty much steady.

Still, this sounds like just some good old fashioned sandbagging to me. It’s pretty easy to add a few strokes a round without seeming like it.

 

[Sox_Fan]

Sounds like their handicaps are a bit massaged to me.

From what I have seen in playing in a lot of tournaments at my club are that the 6 and under handicaps are true but often there are obvious sandbaggers in the flights above that range. Typically, -2 at the most over a 2 day tournament wins the 6 and under flight but at least 1 person in the other flights will be -8 or better.

 

[M2Giles]

Were they playing the course as if it were stroke play or were they treating every hole as a match for lowest score?

I know this may sound like an odd question, but one thing I notice during match play, is my course management strategy changes significantly and depending on how they have their handicaps it may eliminate a lot of their mistakes.

Having a -7 and -10 differential is a bit on the suspect side for 18 holes. I've seen people shoot 9 holes outside their handicap range (a low double digit and high single digit shooting par to +2) since the fewer holes meaning fewer chances for a blow up hole. If you know the 20 handicap and play with him often, he had a great day.

For the pops, did you all adjust for team format and matchplay? If not, I would agree that the higher handicaps have an advantage in that case.

 

[DataDude]

The “favors the improving golfer” is something a lot of people don’t remember when they’re looking at those probability tables to say how likely it is for someone to shoot X many strokes better than their handicap. Those all assume that the handicap is pretty much steady.

Still, this sounds like just some good old fashioned sandbagging to me. It’s pretty easy to add a few strokes a round without seeming like it.

You said old buddy started scoring poorly as soon as the match was over. Sounds like he was keeping his cap high or just undisciplined when it doesn't matter. Either way that will help him beat his cap in competition.

 

[kevin81002]

Like I said, the guy that was getting 19 pops I play with almost every Saturday and I've never seen him shoot in the 80s... ever. He's usually good for atleast 3-4 bad holes on both sides of the course. The guy just didn't miss anything. 2nd hole, he was in the fairway bunker 175 out to an uphill green and stuck it to 10'. That was the #1 hcp hole so he's laying 0 10' from the hole. Another hole he was in a greenside bunker plugged on an uphill slope and stuck it to a foot for a tap in par net birdie. Everything just went his way. He's in his mid 60s, and if you guys saw him swing a club, you'd believe every bit of that hcp.

It just sort of made me think. In a match play scenario, or any scenario really, guys who are scratch to single digit really have no shot in a hcp event if their opponents who are high handicappers get some rolls going their way. The margin for error seems to me to be much less the lower you get.

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[M2Giles]

Like I said, the guy that was getting 19 pops I play with almost every Saturday and I've never seen him shoot in the 80s... ever. He's usually good for atleast 3-4 bad holes on both sides of the course. The guy just didn't miss anything. 2nd hole, he was in the fairway bunker 175 out to an uphill green and stuck it to 10'. That was the #1 hcp hole so he's laying 0 10' from the hole. Another hole he was in a greenside bunker plugged on an uphill slope and stuck it to a foot for a tap in par net birdie. Everything just went his way. He's in his mid 60s, and if you guys saw him swing a club, you'd believe every bit of that hcp.

It just sort of made me think. In a match play scenario, or any scenario really, guys who are scratch to single digit really have no shot in a hcp event if their opponents who are high handicappers get some rolls going their way. The margin for error seems to me to be much less the lower you get.

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If it was 80% of his handicap how would the match have gone.

 

[kevin81002]

Were they playing the course as if it were stroke play or were they treating every hole as a match for lowest score?

I know this may sound like an odd question, but one thing I notice during match play, is my course management strategy changes significantly and depending on how they have their handicaps it may eliminate a lot of their mistakes.

Having a -7 and -10 differential is a bit on the suspect side for 18 holes. I've seen people shoot 9 holes outside their handicap range (a low double digit and high single digit shooting par to +2) since the fewer holes meaning fewer chances for a blow up hole. If you know the 20 handicap and play with him often, he had a great day.

For the pops, did you all adjust for team format and matchplay? If not, I would agree that the higher handicaps have an advantage in that case.

They base the strokes off the low hcp of the group. Since my partner's course cap is 1 he got 0, I got 9 strokes from a 10hcp, Jamie got 15 strokes from a 16hcp, and Randy got 19 strokes from a 20hcp

They didn't adjust their strategy for match play. They were just out there playing golf. It was funny really. I wasn't upset about it watching Randy (the 20) shoot well. I see him struggle pretty much every week and was happy for him to put together a good round. I just wish it wasn't against me in a club event.

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[ArmyGolf]

Without getting into details, I firmly believe the handicap system completely fails when the spread between caps is too great.
Also, Match Play MUST be played at 50-75% handicap at most. Any match play competition at more than that with a large spread in handicaps is a joke.

 

[ntanygd760]

They have flights for a reason. 2 players playing guys who are both 15 strokes worse doesn't work.

 

[leftshot]

Without getting into details, I firmly believe the handicap system completely fails when the spread between caps is too great.
Also, Match Play MUST be played at 50-75% handicap at most. Any match play competition at more than that with a large spread in handicaps is a joke.

Agree with the "fails when the spread between caps is too great" comment. Without getting too detailed, it's like this. If I'm a true 20 HC I have some significant inconsistencies and holes in my game. Having a range of scores of 20 strokes in a sample size of say 20 rounds is not unexpected. If I'm a 1 HC like your partner my game is much more consistent and without any significant holes. Over 20 rounds I'd expect a range much less than 20 strokes maybe 7-10. Much over that would be an outlier for sure. So if you use 100% of handicaps, you'd expect the higher HC players to win a majority of the time.

 

[mpeterson]

Without getting into details, I firmly believe the handicap system completely fails when the spread between caps is too great.
Also, Match Play MUST be played at 50-75% handicap at most. Any match play competition at more than that with a large spread in handicaps is a joke.

They have flights for a reason. 2 players playing guys who are both 15 strokes worse doesn't work.

This is why I stopped playing in the league I was doing. They went to one flight and there were guys I was giving 12 to for 9 holes. And a couple holes on the course where having any chance would be basically impossible as open as they are.

 

[EnglishTurn]

Like I said, the guy that was getting 19 pops I play with almost every Saturday and I've never seen him shoot in the 80s... ever. He's usually good for atleast 3-4 bad holes on both sides of the course. The guy just didn't miss anything. 2nd hole, he was in the fairway bunker 175 out to an uphill green and stuck it to 10'. That was the #1 hcp hole so he's laying 0 10' from the hole. Another hole he was in a greenside bunker plugged on an uphill slope and stuck it to a foot for a tap in par net birdie. Everything just went his way. He's in his mid 60s, and if you guys saw him swing a club, you'd believe every bit of that hcp.

It just sort of made me think. In a match play scenario, or any scenario really, guys who are scratch to single digit really have no shot in a hcp event if their opponents who are high handicappers get some rolls going their way. The margin for error seems to me to be much less the lower you get.

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He who has the strokes always wins. When we have a tournament/ event there are always multiple fights. Never have to worry about a 3 playing a 20. Nothing more deflating than birdieing a hole and pushing it when your partner hacks out a bogie with two pops.

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[kevin81002]

He who has the strokes always wins. When we have a tournament/ event there are always multiple fights. Never have to worry about a 3 playing a 20. Nothing more deflating than birdieing a hole and pushing it when your partner hacks out a bogie with two pops.

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Our normal men's club tournaments have 3 flights. But for some reason, the 4 ball match play doesn't. This is an SCGA event, not a local club event. Teams qualify for it based on the results from one of our 2 man tourneys. Those that qualify play out their matches in a tournament bracket. The top team goes to a regional event toward the end of the year representing our club.

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