Are we at the mercy of OEM's club builders?

golfinnut

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Some of you may know, I finally received my new Titleist T200 & T300 irons the other day. I was so anxious to play them, that I took off work early to get them & have enough time to get out to the course for a round. To my surprise, a lot of my shots were going left. And I don't mean slightly left, they were dead pulls and everything missed that way. My divot was completely different, also to the left. I could feel the toe grabbing on the turf thru impact. The club going thru the turf was just completely different than what I'm used to. So what gives right?

Well luckily I have a loft/lie machine at home. I get home & take out the 6-iron & put it on the machine. Turns out, 3* upright AND 3* stronger in loft!! WTH! :eek: So maybe it's a slight error ... couldn't be all the clubs, right? Nope ... take out the 5-iron .... same thing. 3* upright & 2* stronger loft. Uhh, I asked for 1* upright from Titleist. I go thru all the irons and they are all 2 - 3* upright with various degrees of loft. Not one club was correct! Well with the exception of the U500. The only other thing they got right was the swing weight. All the clubs are at D2.

So what do I do? Try and send them back to Titleist? Then have to wait forever & a day to get them fixed. Or do I go ahead and fix them myself? What would someone do if they didn't have a loft/lie machine like myself? Are you just stuck with them the way they are or do you take them back? Are we really at the mercy of whoever builds the clubs? If you weren't too knowledgeable on club aspects, what does what & why with the lie, etc. would you just chalk it up to a bad day with a bad swing? Or would you even think that it was the club and take them to be looked at for specs? :unsure:

I'm at a loss for words really. Especially with Titleist. :confused:
 
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Nate

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Well, the Titleist event is this weekend.....maybe some of the guys going can shed some light on how and why this would happen and what is your best recourse in getting it fixed?

I recommend everyone get their loft/lies checked anytime they buy new woods and irons.
 

tomcat

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Don't you have the loft / lie machine so you can fix those things? Or is it just to check/verify?
 

golfinnut

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Don't you have the loft / lie machine so you can fix those things? Or is it just to check/verify?
I do. But I'm just concerned for those that don't have one.

But why would I have to check brand new irons directly from the factory? You would like to assume that they would be correct straight out of the box, right? :unsure:
 

tomcat

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Oh, I agree that you'd naturally assume they would be correct. My remark was in relation to your question about whether to send them back and wait.
 

cbaker2882

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The toe was grabbing the turf, but they were too upright?

I'll be honest, that has to be a bad swing day. 1* wouldn't cause the issues you were seeing...like...at all. off from your intended line, sure, but 1* isn't causing you to take different divots and completely pull shots. Also, too upright would cause issues with the heel, not the toe.
 

bmongi1

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That's one of the reasons I want a loft / lie machine. That same scenario has happened to me a few times. One set was ordered 2° flat and they came 2° upright and 1° strong. I'm not sure how that happens except it was an entire set so maybe the order was read wrong. However it happened, it's unacceptable.
 

donny475

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Don't you have the loft / lie machine so you can fix those things? Or is it just to check/verify?
ITs not the fact that he can fix it, its the time involved and also that he was not given what he paid for. his questions was, "What would someone do if they didn't have a loft/lie machine like myself?"

Myself, I would contact Titleist and ask them if they want to pay for an RA to fix them of want to pay for having them fixed at a local shop of their choosing.
 

kevin81002

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I do. But I'm just concerned for those that don't have one.

But why would I have to check brand new irons directly from the factory? You would like to assume that they would be correct straight out of the box, right? :unsure:
I've said it in many threads here, and so have others... always get your irons checked for loft/lie. I have yet to buy a set that every iron is correct. New or used.

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cbaker2882

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Speaking of though...where does one purchase a relatively cheap loft/lie machine? :unsure: That's something I wouldn't mind having
 

cbaker2882

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I've said it in many threads here, and so have others... always get your irons checked for loft/lie. I have yet to buy a set that every iron is correct. New or used.

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i think his main point is that we shouldn't have to do the bolded on brand new clubs. Which I fully agree. Don't even give people the option of custom specs if you can't actually get them there.
 

golfinnut

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The toe was grabbing the turf, but they were too upright?

I'll be honest, that has to be a bad swing day. 1* wouldn't cause the issues you were seeing...like...at all. off from your intended line, sure, but 1* isn't causing you to take different divots and completely pull shots. Also, too upright would cause issues with the heel, not the toe.
My swing has never been that bad before. It may have been the heel or toe or something ... I was just pissed that it wasn't feeling right thru impact. One way or another, they were off.

And I have to edit .... they were 3* upright from standard & I normally play 1*
 

cbaker2882

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My swing has never been that bad before. It may have been the heel or toe or something ... I was just pissed that it wasn't feeling right thru impact. One way or another, they were off.

And I have to edit .... they were 3* upright from standard & I normally play 1*
yea if the heel was slightly grabbing for you I can see that. It's basically like swinging through rough at that point, where the rough grabs the heel of the club and causes the shot to go left.
 

wubears71

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This is why Club Champion builds cost so much. If you order a set D6, .5" long, 1.5 Deg Up right and 1 deg week, that is exactly what you will get - all right on.

Unfortunately, OEM tolerances aren't as tight as we expect and the majority of golfers won't notice. My Apex pro irons that were replaced by Mizuno JPX 900s were + 2 swing weight points and the lofts were + 1 degree. The JPX 900s were all within 0.1 swing weight - I ordered them from CC as D6 and every one came in at D5.9 - D6.1. Even my new MP-20s all vary by about + 1 swing weight point from Mizuno. My 1.5 deg upright lie was all within +0.5 Deg but still not dead nuts on like the JPX 900s I got from CC.

Now ordering 2 deg flat and getting 2 deg upright sounds like a miss communication between the order input and the builder.
 

kevin81002

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i think his main point is that we shouldn't have to do the bolded on brand new clubs. Which I fully agree. Don't even give people the option of custom specs if you can't actually get them there.
I understand that and I agree. Unfortunately, their QC for the most part on custom builds or stock clubs isn't what it should be. Over the years I've bought new sets from Mizuno, Titleist, Callaway, Srixon and Taylormade. Srixon was the only one that was even close to the specs ordered. 1 club was 2* off on loft.

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JB

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Let me add something to this that sometimes is lost a bit. Loft and Lie machines are very good devices, but they are still up to the user to seat the club correctly. Im not saying @golfinnut is doing it wrong at all, but it does happen.

Second, not all loft and lie machines are created equally. For instance we use a Mitchel Signature. It was expensive. Why? Because most OEMs and all Club Champions use them. Most Tour Vans use them. Most shaft companies use them. So we want our numbers to align with what they are using. We also have a Golf Mechanix Digital Loft and Lie. It can be off by multiple degrees if you don't seat it exact and almost hold it in place. We have used some cheaper devices and most of them cause more stress than they actually provide good info.

Save up, buy a Mitchell and be glad you have a device that will outlast you.

With all of that said, if I got a new set of irons and was concerned that they were 3 degrees off what I ordered, I would send them back.
 

kevin81002

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I'd drive em down to TPI and tell em to fix em. Wonder how far I'd get.

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bmongi1

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I've had equipment envy since the THP club equipment videos. The Mitchell looks like the gold standard but the cost is a tough pill to swallow. Probably why you don't see many used ones for sale.
 

golfinnut

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Let me add something to this that sometimes is lost a bit. Loft and Lie machines are very good devices, but they are still up to the user to seat the club correctly. Im not saying @golfinnut is doing it wrong at all, but it does happen.

Second, not all loft and lie machines are created equally. For instance we use a Mitchel Signature. It was expensive. Why? Because most OEMs and all Club Champions use them. Most Tour Vans use them. Most shaft companies use them. So we want our numbers to align with what they are using. We also have a Golf Mechanix Digital Loft and Lie. It can be off by multiple degrees if you don't seat it exact and almost hold it in place. We have used some cheaper devices and most of them cause more stress than they actually provide good info.

Save up, buy a Mitchell and be glad you have a device that will outlast you.

With all of that said, if I got a new set of irons and was concerned that they were 3 degrees off what I ordered, I would send them back.
I would find it hard to believe that the tolerances would be that far off from one machine to the other. :unsure:

And I've been bending clubs for over 30 years, the correct way (y)
 

wubears71

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Save up, buy a Mitchell and be glad you have a device that will outlast you.
I can attest to that. I had a golf mechanix loft/lie machine that served its purpose, but the repeatability was questionable. I purchased a Mitchell a few years ago after using one at Club Champion and well, there is Mitchell and then everyone else. It's so easy to seat the club in a repeatable manner. The bending bar is so much easier to use and making loft adjustments without affecting lie and vice versa are a breeze.
Screen Shot 2019-10-17 at 9.24.56 AM.png
 

Canadan

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Some of you may know, I finally received my new Titleist T200 & T300 irons the other day. I was so anxious to play them, that I took off work early to get them & have enough time to get out to the course for a round. To my surprise, a lot of my shots were going left. And I don't mean slightly left, they were dead pulls and everything missed that way. My divot was completely different, also to the left. I could feel the toe grabbing on the turf thru impact. The club going thru the turf was just completely different than what I'm used to. So what gives right?

Well luckily I have a loft/lie machine at home. I get home & take out the 6-iron & put it on the machine. Turns out, 3* upright AND 3* stronger in loft!! WTH! :eek: So maybe it's a slight error ... couldn't be all the clubs, right? Nope ... take out the 5-iron .... same thing. 3* upright & 2* stronger loft. Uhh, I asked for 1* upright from Titleist. I go thru all the irons and they are all 2 - 3* upright with various degrees of loft. Not one club was correct! Well with the exception of the U500. The only other thing they got right was the swing weight. All the clubs are at D2.

So what do I do? Try and send them back to Titleist? Then have to wait forever & a day to get them fixed. Or do I go ahead and fix them myself? What would someone do if they didn't have a loft/lie machine like myself? Are you just stuck with them the way they are or do you take them back? Are we really at the mercy of whoever builds the clubs? If you weren't too knowledgeable on club aspects, what does what & why with the lie, etc. would you just chalk it up to a bad day with a bad swing? Or would you even think that it was the club and take them to be looked at for specs? :unsure:

I'm at a loss for words really. Especially with Titleist. :confused:
I would reach out to Titleist, without question.

Having walked through their custom build area, they measure loft/lie on every single custom build that goes through their shop. That wildly different number seems crazy to me.
 

JB

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I would find it hard to believe that the tolerances would be that far off from one machine to the other. :unsure:

And I've been bending clubs for over 30 years, the correct way (y)
I’m not doubting you, which is what I said. I’m saying it to others that expressed interest in getting a cheap machine. Machines vary.
 

OLDPRO46

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Some of you may know, I finally received my new Titleist T200 & T300 irons the other day. I was so anxious to play them, that I took off work early to get them & have enough time to get out to the course for a round. To my surprise, a lot of my shots were going left. And I don't mean slightly left, they were dead pulls and everything missed that way. My divot was completely different, also to the left. I could feel the toe grabbing on the turf thru impact. The club going thru the turf was just completely different than what I'm used to. So what gives right?

Well luckily I have a loft/lie machine at home. I get home & take out the 6-iron & put it on the machine. Turns out, 2* upright AND 3* stronger in loft!! WTH! :eek: So maybe it's a slight error ... couldn't be all the clubs, right? Nope ... take out the 5-iron .... same thing. 2* upright & 2* stronger loft. Uhh, I asked for 1* upright from Titleist. I go thru all the irons and they are all 2* upright with various degrees of loft. Not one club was correct! Well with the exception of the U500. The only other thing they got right was the swing weight. All the clubs are at D2.

So what do I do? Try and send them back to Titleist? Then have to wait forever & a day to get them fixed. Or do I go ahead and fix them myself? What would someone do if they didn't have a loft/lie machine like myself? Are you just stuck with them the way they are or do you take them back? Are we really at the mercy of whoever builds the clubs? If you weren't too knowledgeable on club aspects, what does what & why with the lie, etc. would you just chalk it up to a bad day with a bad swing? Or would you even think that it was the club and take them to be looked at for specs? :unsure:

I'm at a loss for words really. Especially with Titleist. :confused:
I have been noticing this more and more in quite a few of the OEM's I deal with. When someone purchases a set of custom clubs one expects them to be built to specs. I have even started requesting that specs. be confirmed prior to shipping. It may or may not help, but at least I have documentation to show the purchaser that their clubs were ordered to their specs. This does not resolve the problem, but it does let the person know I've done my best to maintain a good relationship. With the high cost and the wait time for delivery it's the least I can do for those who put their trust in me.
 

golfinnut

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I’m not doubting you, which is what I said. I’m saying it to others that expressed interest in getting a cheap machine. Machines vary.
Oh so now I'm cheap?? :unsure: Hahahaha :ROFLMAO:
 

mtcowdog

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I've seen quite a few posts across the online golf spectrum where custom specs were off. I don't know if I need to buy a $1400 Mitchell -- I of course now want one -- but doubting or getting wrong build specs on expensive new clubs would be highly frustrating. Dear OEMs, take your time and get these right! We can wait for quality work. Really, we can.
 

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