I feel you on Victory. All the comments on the construction are true. Course conditions are very subjective but it wasn't your cup of tea that day. I really started to enjoy playing there after I knew the course a bit. Let's be honest there are some blind shots and some gimmicky holes. You cannot take your attention away for one second on 8 and 9 for example or you are looking for where to drop. Founders course is a good course as well with some similar issues. Blind shots and gimmicks but once you play a time or 2 you know where to be bold. I like both courses or I wouldn't drive out from Gilbert to play them. Also usually better prices then the other phx area courses