Arm Swing Illusion

KZG Golf

Carolina Golfer

Active member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
513
Reaction score
114
Handicap
36
Some of seen videos by Steve Bann and Jim Waldron, where it seems like the club is going sideways on the backswing. But, it is actually levered up and the body turns the club to the side. I understand the backswing. Lever up at 45 degrees while chest turns. What is the simple thought on the through swing?

 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2
Some of seen videos by Steve Bann and Jim Waldron, where it seems like the club is going sideways on the backswing. But, it is actually levered up and the body turns the club to the side. I understand the backswing. Lever up at 45 degrees while chest turns. What is the simple thought on the through swing?

I think if someone has any "through swing thought" they are doing it wrong.
An effective down swing happens naturally, as a consequence of a proper address position and back swing.
 

JonMA1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
965
Reaction score
851
Location
Northern Michigan
Handicap
High
I think if someone has any "through swing thought" they are doing it wrong.
An effective down swing happens naturally, as a consequence of a proper address position and back swing.
I can only assume you're correct in that a proper address position and a proper back swing are essential for a proper downswing, but wouldn't it be possible to accomplish those two things - to some degree - and still fail somewhere on the downswing? Between weight shift, body rotation, swing path, sequencing and a multitude of other components, there seems to be a lot of things that can be done incorrectly.
 

Turtlerancher

Well-known member
Albatross 2020 Club
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Messages
3,056
Reaction score
2,657
Location
Maine
Handicap
Pick one.
I could see, if your trying to incorporate this move into a swing thought, it possibly causing a wicked over the top move. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

razaar

Active member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
342
Reaction score
147
Location
Australia
Handicap
4.6
A simple thought that works for me is to keep the back to the target while turning the tailbone away from the target and trying to hit the ball with the left knee and the right elbow.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2
I can only assume you're correct in that a proper address position and a proper back swing are essential for a proper downswing, but wouldn't it be possible to accomplish those two things - to some degree - and still fail somewhere on the downswing? Between weight shift, body rotation, swing path, sequencing and a multitude of other components, there seems to be a lot of things that can be done incorrectly.
I believe address technique (grip-posture-alignment) promotes a proper, efficient back swing. So not only are "down swing thoughts" unnecessary, but so are back swing thoughts.
Obviously, the above does not mean one can simply use fundamentally sound grip-posture-alignment and then automatically produce a good looking, effective swing. In fact it takes thousands of hours swinging a club for a player to develop his/her golf muscles, formulate an effective sense of swing tempo and rhythm etc....
99% of players never learn or practice fundamental address technique, so that means they end up spending their golf career using a collection of band aids including swing tips and swing thoughts to compensate for faulty address technique.
Youngsters with a passion for golf, fortunate enough to receive competent instruction, are usually taught correct grip-posture-alignment. From there they spend hundreds of hours on the range and playing rounds of golf, and their own naturally effective swing emerges. As they grow taller, gain weight etc... the shape and speed of their swing changes a bit, but it's still rooted in the foundation set by fundamentally sound address technique. Almost all Tour players have followed this path.
 

JonMA1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
965
Reaction score
851
Location
Northern Michigan
Handicap
High
99% of players never learn or practice fundamental address technique, so that means they end up spending their golf career using a collection of band aids including swing tips and swing thoughts to compensate for faulty address technique.
I do believe this is true. Our good results are more of an anomaly but we mistakenly hold on to the "feel" we believe was the reason behind the good result.

I'd love to have that solid, correct foundation to build upon, repeat and fine-tune.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2
I'd love to have that solid, correct foundation to build upon, repeat and fine-tune.
So do it.
Correct posture and alignment hardly take any time at all to learn and, or, get comfortable using.
Grip technique is a fundamental where most players fail, and grip influences/dictates the entire swing. So any player serious about improving should commit to learning and practicing fundamentally sound grip technique. It does require some discipline to stick with it and continue rehearsing, practicing, adhering to correct grip technique. Nicklaus "Golf My Way" and Tiger's "How I play Golf" are book's that have drawings and, or, photographs revealing fundamentally sound grip technique.
 

GolfLivesMatter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
2,309
Reaction score
553
Location
Newport Beach
Handicap
36
Some of seen videos by Steve Bann and Jim Waldron, where it seems like the club is going sideways on the backswing. But, it is actually levered up and the body turns the club to the side. I understand the backswing. Lever up at 45 degrees while chest turns. What is the simple thought on the through swing?

2 minute video and the guy nailed it. It's not crazy to avoid all the mechanics of the backswing and simply lift the club like he shows and put it into position at the top. If you watch pro tennis, some of the pro's do the whole wind-up where the racket goes down, then behind, then up, while others hold the racket up higher, put it into position, and serve.
 

razaar

Active member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
342
Reaction score
147
Location
Australia
Handicap
4.6
The fundamentals of that video were first published in 1968 in the scientific study into the golf swing commissioned by the Golf Society of Great Britain -"Search for the Perfect Swing by Cochran & Stobbs. It was republished in 2005 with updates, although they are few.
The problem for golfers is that we don't hit the ball with our backswing and there is no time to think backswing and downswing, our brains aren't that quick. There is a concensus that if we have to choose between the two then it is best to concentrate on forward swing thoughts, the business end of the stroke rather than the backswing when we play. The golf swing takes about one second with the second half of the swing taking one-third of a second. There is an awful lot that can go wrong in that 1/3 sec even if our backswing is perfect. Thinking downswing thoughts during the backswing can correct faulty backswings.
Popular golf instruction teaches the grip/backswing as a first step to learning the golf swing. But is this how elite golf swings were learned. Those who took up the game as youngsters didn't have the strength to learn the classic backswing. They learned how to hit the middle of the clubface every time and how to control the clubface through impact in order to control the golf ball.
The short version of the above is learn how to make the ball do something that you want from it. Don't get tied up with backswing thoughts and then expect to control the ball.
 
Last edited:

GolfLivesMatter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
2,309
Reaction score
553
Location
Newport Beach
Handicap
36
The fundamentals of that video were first published in 1968 in the scientific study into the golf swing commissioned by the Golf Society of Great Britain -"Search for the Perfect Swing by Cochran & Stobbs. It was republished in 2005 with updates, although they are few.
The problem for golfers is that we don't hit the ball with our backswing and there is no time to think backswing and downswing, our brains aren't that quick. There is a concensus that if we have to choose between the two then it is best to concentrate on forward swing thoughts, the business end of the stroke rather than the backswing when we play. The golf swing takes about one second with the second half of the swing taking one-third of a second. There is an awful lot that can go wrong in that 1/3 sec even if our backswing is perfect. Thinking downswing thoughts during the backswing can correct faulty backswings.
Popular golf instruction teaches the grip/backswing as a first step to learning the golf swing. But is this how elite golf swings were learned. Those who took up the game as youngsters didn't have the strength to learn the classic backswing. They learned how to hit the middle of the clubface every time and how to control the clubface through impact in order to control the golf ball.
The short version of the above is learn how to make the ball do something that you want from it. Don't get tied up with backswing thoughts and then expect to control the ball.
Like...probably...the best post I've ever seen. I did not know about this 1968 study. This supports my notion, as well as seeing pro back swings, that there's no "one way" to complete a back swing. The comment regarding "we don't hit the ball with our backswing" is spot-on. So many guys I know fuss with the backswing. IMO, they do so because that's the easier part of the swing to control because there's no consequence, and it's the slower part of the swing. That's why I use an impact bag.
 

campilobaxter

Mustachioed Root Vegetable
Albatross 2020 Club
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
5,036
Reaction score
673
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Handicap
10.8
I think if someone has any "through swing thought" they are doing it wrong.
An effective down swing happens naturally, as a consequence of a proper address position and back swing.
I know this is your position and you have stated it (and things like it) quite a bit here. And of course I have no problem with that. But I don't think the position that "you are doing it wrong" if you have a down swing or through swing thought is correct for all people. Take me, for example. I have worked quite a bit on my setup, posture, grip, and back swing positions for the last year. I don't think I really have a "thought" for those. But I often feel like I don't know where to go once I get to the top. So I took a lesson recently and asked my instructor about the thought or feeling I should have to start the downswing. He gave me some thoughts and feelings, which I now use when I am practicing to help me sequence the down swing and make sure I get into the optimal positions. This is all to say that I think swing thoughts can be very useful while someone is learning to put a full swing together. Once you have done the work to ingrain the positions and moves, then a swing thought becomes unnecessary and the down sing "happens naturally", in my opinion.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2
I know this is your position and you have stated it (and things like it) quite a bit here. And of course I have no problem with that. But I don't think the position that "you are doing it wrong" if you have a down swing or through swing thought is correct for all people. Take me, for example. I have worked quite a bit on my setup, posture, grip, and back swing positions for the last year. I don't think I really have a "thought" for those. But I often feel like I don't know where to go once I get to the top. So I took a lesson recently and asked my instructor about the thought or feeling I should have to start the downswing. He gave me some thoughts and feelings, which I now use when I am practicing to help me sequence the down swing and make sure I get into the optimal positions. This is all to say that I think swing thoughts can be very useful while someone is learning to put a full swing together. Once you have done the work to ingrain the positions and moves, then a swing thought becomes unnecessary and the down sing "happens naturally", in my opinion.
I understand your point, and the reality is that your perspective is definitely the same as most players and instructors.
But I think if one truly appreciates the long list of swing factors that grip-posture-alignment do for the swing, then it raises the question of why any player would want to have any "swing thoughts".
Consider that Ben Hogan wrote in at least one of his instruction books "99% of the shot is completed before the player ever starts his swing takeaway". His point was to emphasize just how much grip-posture-alignment affect , truly create, the entire swing.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2
Seems similar to Hogan's book.
I really like Nicklaus emphasizing a palm oriented left hand grip and a fingers oriented right hand. This technique is effective at producing consistently straight shots and a player can swing without fear of pulling shots left and, or, hooked shots.
 

GolfLivesMatter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
2,309
Reaction score
553
Location
Newport Beach
Handicap
36
I really like Nicklaus emphasizing a palm oriented left hand grip and a fingers oriented right hand. This technique is effective at producing consistently straight shots and a player can swing without fear of pulling shots left and, or, hooked shots.
I agree with Jack and Ben.
 

razaar

Active member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
342
Reaction score
147
Location
Australia
Handicap
4.6
Just because Jack and Ben recommend a neutral grip doesn't mean that it suits everybody. Hogan played with a very weak grip during his prime. Itwas so weak that he could see four knuckles on his right hand at address. His book "Five Lessons...." recommended fundamentals that he didn't own in his own swing. If he didn't write about his own swing, then who's swing did he write about assuming he was the author of the publication.
it may be surprising to some that the most popular grip on tour i(and has been for some time) is a strong grip with the grip of the club lying along the roots of the fingers of the left hand.
 
Last edited:

GolfLivesMatter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
2,309
Reaction score
553
Location
Newport Beach
Handicap
36
Just because Jack and Ben recommend a neutral grip doesn't mean that it suits everybody. Hogan played with a very weak grip during his prime. Itwas so weak that he could see four knuckles on his right hand at address. His book "Five Lessons...." recommended fundamentals that he didn't own in his own swing. If he didn't write about his own swing, then who's swing did he write about assuming he was the author of the publication.
it may be surprising to some that the most popular grip on tour i(and has been for some time) is a strong grip with the grip of the club lying along the roots of the fingers of the left hand.
Grips are unique to an individual, but in general I subscribe to Hogan and Nicklaus's concepts as a baseline. If someone prefers a stronger grip, that works for them.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
4,760
Reaction score
1,128
Handicap
2
Grips are unique to an individual, but in general I subscribe to Hogan and Nicklaus's concepts as a baseline. If someone prefers a stronger grip, that works for them.
In the Nicklaus above he addresses the notion that players should "play with the grip that they feel comfortable using" and dismisses this perspective as wrong.
His instructor Jack Grout refused to teach any player who did not use the grip technique he taught.
My own thoughts on this subject are that while there are some good players who use a strong grip, a consistently effective swing (and good ball striking) is much, much easier to achieve when using the grip technique which Nicklaus likes. In other words, why make the game harder than it need be ?
 

GolfLivesMatter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
2,309
Reaction score
553
Location
Newport Beach
Handicap
36
In the Nicklaus above he addresses the notion that players should "play with the grip that they feel comfortable using" and dismisses this perspective as wrong.
His instructor Jack Grout refused to teach any player who did not use the grip technique he taught.
My own thoughts on this subject are that while there are some good players who use a strong grip, a consistently effective swing (and good ball striking) is much, much easier to achieve when using the grip technique which Nicklaus likes. In other words, why make the game harder than it need be ?
Totally agree. Some folks are experts in telling others how to play golf. I'm not one of them. I see so many whacko pro back swings, odd wrist positions at the top, but somehow their innate ability delivers the club to the ball to be on TV every weekend. Those who mimic others are destined for failure because the "other guy" is not them.
 

Carolina Golfer

Active member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
513
Reaction score
114
Handicap
36
Can we get back on track? Any thoughts on an ASI downswing?
 

razaar

Active member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
342
Reaction score
147
Location
Australia
Handicap
4.6
Can we get back on track? Any thoughts on an ASI downswing?
There is a saying that applies equally in life and in golf - those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know. To understand its meaning try Google.
While you are on Google key in - Kelvin Miyahira fixing your slice and OTT swing. Kelvin's article will give you an insight into the downswing illusions.
 

Welcome to The Hackers Paradise

Don't just play golf, live it!

Register Log in
Top