Ball/Spin Question for Mid-Speed Players

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My son just had a driver fitting on Trackman and we learned he’s consistently around 3k spin. His club speed was around 102, AOA -1, LA ~10*, carry 235-240, and total in the 260’s.

We don’t want to change his technique to try and hit more up because he’s successful off the tee as is. In his last tournament he hit 13/13 fairways (one side had 3 par 3’s and 3 par 5’s). Generally, he’s above the tour average percentage of FH.

TL/DR - So, has anyone experienced lowering spin without lowering ball speed too much by a ball change. He’s currently playing the 2019 Pro V1x.


More Details for those interested:

His iron spin is a little on the low end at around 6700-7k with an 8i when he was warming up yesterday. So I don’t think it would be good to loose too much spin off the irons with a ball switch.

I’m hesitant to switch balls because he is otherwise playing well with FH and GIRs. He’s usually 7-10 GIRs per round. But if he can gain some distance without losing control through a spin reduction with a ball change, it might help him hit more GIRs. Most of his lost strokes are from missing greens and not chipping close enough to 1 putt. He usually has one 3 putt per round too, and usually because he hits an iron on a green 30-40 ft from the hole.

He does work on short game and I think it’s just an experience issue that he’s working on. I’m just looking at all the pieces so we can chip away at weaknesses little by little.

I didn’t think to take a picture of his driver results. I did take one early on from one of his warmup shots with an 8i. However, I have some numbers from GC2 a month ago with his driver. Launch and spin was higher then because his driver doesn’t fit as well. His current driver (GC2 numbers) is a TS2 10.5 turned down to 9.75* with HZRDUS Smoke Black 60/6.5 shaft. The final fitting averages I mentioned above were from a TSi3 10 turned down to 9.25* with a Ventus Black 6s.

Thanks ahead for any thoughts.
 

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I’ve been experimenting with the standard chrome soft with my usual CSX. It spins a little less off the tee and the net result is distance is about the same. I don’t like giving up spin in other places though.

A ball I have considered trying is Bridgestone BXS. A little less spin on the driver for being able to compress it but possibly retaining spin in other places. Only way to know if it would work is to try it.
 
Only way to know if it would work is to try it.

For sure. I guess I was hoping for some examples to maybe narrow down some options.

I know the RX/RXS has come up before, I just wasn’t sure if it would drop the iron spin lower too.
 
Meh I would say he needs more launch then anything but that is just my opinion.
 
What was he fit into? Did they try lofting down to tame some spin?
Ball wise I played the regular Chrome Soft all year because I needed the spin around the green. Lately I have been playing the Srixon Soft feel to reduce some spin and it has given me some distance also.

A ball change is a relatively cheap experiment to find what works for him.
 
Meh I would say he needs more launch then anything but that is just my opinion.

The problem we encountered was that trying to do that with loft just increased spin. We did gain some launch from the SIM2 head but the spin was actually a little worse/higher.

We did experiment some today on course by having him address the ball with the driver a half inch or so behind the ball and that seems to be helping considerably with both launch and distance. But it was just one day and not a full 18 holes, so it will take more testing.
 
The ball really isn't going to make that much difference - maybe 500 rpm. What will make a difference is his Angle of Attack and where he's striking the ball on the club face. These will affect spin rates more.

Have him hit more up on the ball with lower loft. Maybe he needs a 9 degree driver?
 
I'd still try to get that driver spin down. You need to see if it is the shaft but from your first post, his AOA needs to increase.

What's the change? Tee it up and/or move a little closer to the front foot. It's all setup, not swing.
 
I'd still try to get that driver spin down. You need to see if it is the shaft but from your first post, his AOA needs to increase.

What's the change? Tee it up and/or move a little closer to the front foot. It's all setup, not swing.

I don’t think it’s a shaft issue because his current driver has the HZRDUS Smoke Black in 6.5 and the fitted driver will have a Ventus Black shaft.

I get that an AOA change would help, and if we can achieve it through a small adjustment that doesn’t start to lower his fairways hit percentage then that would be great.

I’m trying to figure out how the tour average is 1.3* down and 2700 spin when my son is hitting down roughly the same, but at slower club head speeds and seeing more spin. The only thing I could think of is a possible compression issue with the ball. But I wasn’t sure if that is even possible.
 
There is so much about this that confuses me..

Do you mind me asking who fit him into the shafts, and what his strength level and tempo/transition is?
 
Realistically its not a one way fix. Maybe the ball forward just a little bit and a little higher (higher on the face will lower spin). Not sure how far it is safe to drop spin. IF you drop spin down to the 2000 range can he maintain accuracy. 2500 may be your answer. Golf ball could be the easiest switch for the time being. Spin on irons is important but if his decent angle is good with a solid peak height, it will negate low spin for the most part.
 
I don’t think it’s a shaft issue because his current driver has the HZRDUS Smoke Black in 6.5 and the fitted driver will have a Ventus Black shaft.

I get that an AOA change would help, and if we can achieve it through a small adjustment that doesn’t start to lower his fairways hit percentage then that would be great.

I’m trying to figure out how the tour average is 1.3* down and 2700 spin when my son is hitting down roughly the same, but at slower club head speeds and seeing more spin. The only thing I could think of is a possible compression issue with the ball. But I wasn’t sure if that is even possible.

ProV1X is the higher spinning ball, at least off irons. Not sure about driver. You can try the ProV1 or ProV1X Left dash and see what happens.
 
Could your son be striking the ball a little low on the face and picking up a few extra rpm of spin from the strike?
 
For sure. I guess I was hoping for some examples to maybe narrow down some options.

I know the RX/RXS has come up before, I just wasn’t sure if it would drop the iron spin lower too.

I was going to suggest the RXS. I’m a high spin players and I’ve been playing the B-XS some this year. I’d maybe try a sleeve of those two and a B-X. There will be a sweet spot somewhere that I think you’ll like all the numbers.

If he’s playing the 2019 ProV1x he’s most likely going to see ball speed increases across the 2020/21 versions of all TourB ball. Finding the one that you like the spin profile best is key.

There are a TON of other factors that play into it outside of ball though and if everything else is good, you can go lower spin head, etc etc. you know all this, 😂.

One other thought. I don’t know at what level he’s playing? I seem to recall him being very good? Is he playing under the “one ball” rule in tournaments? If he’s not you can have a wind ball and an into wind ball. I know you have to play each hole to it’s completion with the same type of ball, but I’ve been experimenting with playing the XS when I have the wind and the RX when into it. It may be too much to think about but I generally have played the XS unless I’m hitting into 8-10+ MPH. The RX is by far better for me there.
 
The problem we encountered was that trying to do that with loft just increased spin. We did gain some launch from the SIM2 head but the spin was actually a little worse/higher.

We did experiment some today on course by having him address the ball with the driver a half inch or so behind the ball and that seems to be helping considerably with both launch and distance. But it was just one day and not a full 18 holes, so it will take more testing.
Was he fit for the shaft? While a high launch low spin is not necessarily going to be a combo that can be found a mid mid might be available that will work better to help him launch then his current gamer. While 3k spin is a tad high I feel like the launch is punishing him more as far as distance goes.
 
I would try TourB RX, it will bring his driver spin down, be appropriate compression for his swing speed, and if it drops his iron spin a little I think that's OK because he'll be still be coming in at a steep descent angle and might pick up a yard or three. Again, only way to know is to try it, even for nine holes. I think Srixon Q-Star Tour enters the conversation strongly here as well.
 
Was he fit for the shaft? While a high launch low spin is not necessarily going to be a combo that can be found a mid mid might be available that will work better to help him launch then his current gamer. While 3k spin is a tad high I feel like the launch is punishing him more as far as distance goes.
Yes on the shaft. But the fitting is only for an hour and I think the fitter zoned in on a low/low shaft because of the spin. We didn’t even talk much about launch other than it’s right at the tour average. But I wasn’t thinking about the fact that tour players can be at 10* because of club speed/ball speed.

Also, go play some with the Flightscope Trajectory Optimizer. If their formulas are correct, launch is not punishing him more than spin. Going all the way up to 15* LA is only good for a few yards. Same for spin alone. But getting both is where you start seeing 10+ yards carry.

 
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Could your son be striking the ball a little low on the face and picking up a few extra rpm of spin from the strike?
No. In general center to high and/or toe. Very rarely does his impact move low and/or heel side. But I think the negative AOA tends to push impact up the face.
 
There is so much about this that confuses me..

Do you mind me asking who fit him into the shafts, and what his strength level and tempo/transition is?
Impact Precision Golf. Very solid fitters and the official fitter for the World Long Drive Championship players.

He has a quick transition and has been in the HZRDUS Smoke black for 2 years now. So I’m sure part of the shaft choice was spin, part transition, and part comfort based on what he’s had.

Across the various shafts he did try, we didn’t see any change in launch angle on average. The only time we did was when we switched to the SIM2 head, but spin was worse/higher. The 10* SIM2 head had him at 12* of launch, but 3200+ spin.
 
I just thought to go look at Trackman’s carry optimizer chart and it looks like he’s close to being optimized as is. The 3k seems high to me based on my speed and what’s optimal for me, so I forget that lower ball speed needs more spin to carry.

100 CS/0 AOA/146 BS/12.1 LA/3118 rpm/235 carry

105 CS/0 AOA/154 BS/11.2 LA/3038 rpm/251 carry

At 102 club speed and closest to 0* AOA (out of -5/0/+5) he’s likely near the ideal numbers.

 

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Impact Precision Golf. Very solid fitters and the official fitter for the World Long Drive Championship players.

He has a quick transition and has been in the HZRDUS Smoke black for 2 years now. So I’m sure part of the shaft choice was spin, part transition, and part comfort based on what he’s had.

Across the various shafts he did try, we didn’t see any change in launch angle on average. The only time we did was when we switched to the SIM2 head, but spin was worse/higher. The 10* SIM2 head had him at 12* of launch, but 3200+ spin.

Okay, just curious. It's a lot of shaft for 135 ball speed.

That's part of what confused me. At that speed and attack it's really not that/too much spin. Especially if it's a controlled flight he's putting in good position a lot.
 
There is so much about this that confuses me..

Do you mind me asking who fit him into the shafts, and what his strength level and tempo/transition is?
Yeah, this is where I am too. Frankly, at your son's SS an optimized result would produce about 290 yard drives. So, there seems to be two possibilities. 1. The fitter did not optimize the shaft and clubhead or 2. Your son needs to adjust his swing to produce optimal results.

As others have mentioned a ball change just won't cut it.

Clearly the launch angle is too low and the spin rate is too high. I'm also curious about smash factor.
 
What about the new Callaway LS?
 
I don't think a ball change will make enough of a difference to see a jump in his numbers apart from maybe more roll, but a launch of 10° and spin at 3k is always going to restrict distance and especially into wind when I guess it will just balloon up on him

I would recommend working on his swing and delivery as changing that slightly would more likely yield better results in terms of distance, assuming he is still able to control the ball

Can't remember what the calculation is, but he is swinging almost 10mph faster than me, yet only carrying the ball 5-10yds further than me, so there is a lot more potential if he can improve his swing I would say
 
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