Being 737 max8....an explanation and asking should it ever been flying?

[milehighgolfer]

I work on these and other 737's and until these tragic events occurred I did not know this system even existed. We do not check/repair/or inspect any part of the MCAS system as part of my daily job requirements. Boeing did not feel it necessary to include it in the 2 weeks differences class I had to attend. So it makes me wonder how effective they educated the pilots on the system.
It also astounds me that this critical system that has the ability to take control of the pitch of the airplane only relied on one AOA sensor. Redundancy is the mantra in commercial airliners. EVERY system has backups or gains info from more than one input. So fixing the software to compare both AOA sensors should be an easy fix. Dave, is allowing the electric trim to override the MCAS command part of the fix? Having to disconnect both A/P and electric trim switches removes any way for the pilots to trim the plane at higher speeds.
I expect this to take longer than necessary to get these planes back in the air since the FAA was caught with their pants down on how they oversaw the development of the Max. Now it will be overkill on the approval process to make these changes.

 

[Rusty Dave]

I work on these and other 737's and until these tragic events occurred I did not know this system even existed. We do not check/repair/or inspect any part of the MCAS system as part of my daily job requirements. Boeing did not feel it necessary to include it in the 2 weeks differences class I had to attend. So it makes me wonder how effective they educated the pilots on the system.
It also astounds me that this critical system that has the ability to take control of the pitch of the airplane only relied on one AOA sensor. Redundancy is the mantra in commercial airliners. EVERY system has backups or gains info from more than one input. So fixing the software to compare both AOA sensors should be an easy fix. Dave, is allowing the electric trim to override the MCAS command part of the fix? Having to disconnect both A/P and electric trim switches removes any way for the pilots to trim the plane at higher speeds.
I expect this to take longer than necessary to get these planes back in the air since the FAA was caught with their pants down on how they oversaw the development of the Max. Now it will be overkill on the approval process to make these changes.

Great points.

Currently we can use the electric trim switches on our control column to override the nose down movement of the MCAS. When we stop using this electric trim on the control column, the MCAS will further command a nose down movement shortly after. It’s a repetitive cycle until we turn the switches autopilot and electric trim switches off on the centre pedestal.

One thing on NG’s is that we can override or stop the autopilot/electric trim by using opposite control column force. On the max the MCAS inhibits this and allows the nose down trim to continue regardless of what the control column is doing. Not sure whether this gets changed or not.

 

[milehighgolfer]

Great points.

Currently we can use the electric trim switches on our control column to override the nose down movement of the MCAS. When we stop using this electric trim on the control column, the MCAS will further command a nose down movement shortly after. It’s a repetitive cycle until we turn the switches autopilot and electric trim switches off on the centre pedestal.

One thing on NG’s is that we can override or stop the autopilot/electric trim by using opposite control column force. On the max the MCAS inhibits this and allows the nose down trim to continue regardless of what the control column is doing. Not sure whether this gets changed or not.

This is idiotic design. There has to be a way for the humans in command to effectively stop the computer from crashing the plane. Otherwise its an Airbus not a Boeing.

 

[Girardcorp]

I’m going to think about this rationally and say this isn’t a problem.
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

According to this you’re way more likely to die on an Airbus a310. 1.34 fatal crashes per million flights vs .13 for 737-600/700/800/900/max.



Stupid statistics.



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[tequila4kapp]

I’m going to think about this rationally and say this isn’t a problem.
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

According to this you’re way more likely to die on an Airbus a310. 1.34 fatal crashes per million flights vs .13 for 737-600/700/800/900/max.



Stupid statistics.

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I am in the camp that doesn't care what the stats say. The plane apparently has a faulty design which causes problems that can be overcome by highly trained and expirenced pilots. I'd prefer not to take a crap shoot on the quality of the pilots on any given flight and just fly a different plane instead.

 

[Girardcorp]

The last airplane crash in the United States occurred February 12th, 2009. It wasn’t even a mainline carrier but a regional airline for continental and I believe pilot error was the main factor (I believe # of hours flown was cited for the copilot). 10 years is a long damn time.




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[Wake]

The last airplane crash in the United States occurred February 12th, 2009. It wasn’t even a mainline carrier but a regional airline for continental and I believe pilot error was the main factor (I believe # of hours flown was cited for the copilot). 10 years is a long damn time.




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Wasn't that the one where they landed on the wrong runway?

 

[dhartmann34]

Thoughts @flyingwedge ? I'd like to hear your thoughts

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[Girardcorp]

Wasn't that the one where they landed on the wrong runway?

No that was the Colgan Air crash in Buffalo NY. I think they pulled it up into a stall and the plane fell out of the sky.

You referring to the delta connection that took off on the wrong runway in Kentucky? (They ran out of runway before getting airborne). I believe the controller wasn’t paying attention either.


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[Wake]

No that was the Colgan Air crash in Buffalo NY. I think they pulled it up into a stall and the plane fell out of the sky.

You referring to the delta connection that took off on the wrong runway in Kentucky? (They ran out of runway before getting airborne). I believe the controller wasn’t paying attention either.


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Yep that's the one I was thinking of. That was 05/06 wasn't it?

 

[The_Dude]

I work on these and other 737's and until these tragic events occurred I did not know this system even existed. We do not check/repair/or inspect any part of the MCAS system as part of my daily job requirements. Boeing did not feel it necessary to include it in the 2 weeks differences class I had to attend. So it makes me wonder how effective they educated the pilots on the system.
It also astounds me that this critical system that has the ability to take control of the pitch of the airplane only relied on one AOA sensor. Redundancy is the mantra in commercial airliners. EVERY system has backups or gains info from more than one input. So fixing the software to compare both AOA sensors should be an easy fix. Dave, is allowing the electric trim to override the MCAS command part of the fix? Having to disconnect both A/P and electric trim switches removes any way for the pilots to trim the plane at higher speeds.
I expect this to take longer than necessary to get these planes back in the air since the FAA was caught with their pants down on how they oversaw the development of the Max. Now it will be overkill on the approval process to make these changes.

Cannot understate your comment of redundant systems on an aircraft and Boeing's reliance on one aoa sensor. It really boggles my mind someone signed off on that.

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[milehighgolfer]

Cannot understate your comment of redundant systems on an aircraft and Boeing's reliance on one aoa sensor. It really boggles my mind someone signed off on that.

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That's the root of the problem. Bad design by Boeing and poor oversight by feds.

 

[Girardcorp]

Yep. 2006

 

[Rusty Dave]

The Colgan crash was monumental in changing fatigue rules in the States. The FO was very inexperienced and had been up the whole previous night commuting from Seattle across the country. The Captain was also underpaid and slept in the crew room on a couch the previous night. They basically took an airplane and stalled it because they were inexperienced and tired.

I teach this accident in a weekend crew resource management (CRM) seminar at the college in town to aviation students.

Flying is crazy safe people. Events and circumstances come along and challenge the safety of the industry but we learn as a whole from it to make it even safer.

 

[threeboysdad]

Although don’t know a thing about planes I am enjoying this conversation. I also know this is about the Max but I was taxiing this week and saw this plane at the last second and thought is was pretty cool.

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[rollin]

That's the root of the problem. Bad design by Boeing and poor oversight by feds.

well,...firstly the FAA quite a number of years back from what I gather was suffering budget cuts from the government. As a result (also from what Ive gathered) they were forced to allow Boeing itself to over see some of the processes involved that the FAA was normally doing prior. I don't really know how bad that part actually is/was because the expert opinions and insight would come from Boeing anyway. I mean who else but the companies experts that designs it would know better anyway. Of course there is always the question of bias when directly involved in sort of self approval but Im not so certain those experts weren't always directly involved anyway all along even years back.

 

[mpeterson]

I’m going to think about this rationally and say this isn’t a problem.
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

According to this you’re way more likely to die on an Airbus a310. 1.34 fatal crashes per million flights vs .13 for 737-600/700/800/900/max.



Stupid statistics.



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But you can't lump the stats for every other 737 configuration in with the max. There's a significant difference in the design of that plane that's causing problems.

 

[mpeterson]

It's not an unsafe airplane but the MCAS system is faulty. Simply limiting it's authority and fixing the software to compare both AofA's is really all that's required. Trust me, any 737 pilot will now be completely aware of the MCAS and recovery technique.

Dave, I've got a follow up question on this - you mentioned that reading from using two sensors was an option earlier - is that hardware already on he plane, and it just wasn't active because they were charging for it? If so, given the limitations/issues, that's looking like a bad decision by whoever was trying to squeeze out a few more bucks that way.

Or am I misunderstanding, which is 100% possible.

 

[Rusty Dave]

Dave, I've got a follow up question on this - you mentioned that reading from using two sensors was an option earlier - is that hardware already on he plane, and it just wasn't active because they were charging for it? If so, given the limitations/issues, that's looking like a bad decision by whoever was trying to squeeze out a few more bucks that way.

Or am I misunderstanding, which is 100% possible.

I’m not entirely sure on the hardware and software requirements for the dual sensor input.

I don’t really think Boeing was trying to squeeze out a few more bucks. There are many options available to each aircraft type. Just depends on what the operator wants. The dual AoA input on the MCAS should’ve been mandatory and will be now.

 

[mpeterson]

I’m not entirely sure on the hardware and software requirements for the dual sensor input.

I don’t really think Boeing was trying to squeeze out a few more bucks. There are many options available to each aircraft type. Just depends on what the operator wants. The dual AoA input on the MCAS should’ve been mandatory and will be now.

Thanks for the clarification.

That’s why I was asking if the parts were there and all that it amounted to was turning it “on” but seems not the case. Like you said earlier, industry learns from these things, so once these are back in the air I’ll have zero concerns as a passenger.

 

[Girardcorp]

Although don’t know a thing about planes I am enjoying this conversation. I also know this is about the Max but I was taxiing this week and saw this plane at the last second and thought is was pretty cool.

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The retro American Liveries are incredible! The AirCal one is pretty sweet too

 

[rollin]

But you can't lump the stats for every other 737 configuration in with the max. There's a significant difference in the design of that plane that's causing problems.

I agree that may be an unfair lumping together. But fwiw the planes didn't technically push themselves up into stall position. The (s Ive called it) physical design flaw to push the nose up didn't actually happen. The planes didn't stall but only the failed sensors tricked the MCAS into thinking it was happening. Just something to note imo.

 

[tomcat]

Thanks for the clarification.

That’s why I was asking if the parts were there and all that it amounted to was turning it “on” but seems not the case. Like you said earlier, industry learns from these things, so once these are back in the air I’ll have zero concerns as a passenger.

Yes, all of the Max8 aircraft have two AOA veins installed on the exterior of the nose. The AOA sensors both feed data to the onboard systems. As we now know, the MCAS only took data from one.

Prior to the Lion Air crash, SWA only had visual AOA indicators on the HUD, and that’s only if the Capt was using it (only required when visibility was extremely low). After, they added it to the primary screens so it was visible at all times. But, MCAS was still only pulling from one vane.

So, this change is essentially a software change with possibly minor hardware changes. Nearly all wiring should already be there.

 

[rollin]

After the Airbus accident off Brazil in 09 the pitot systems were redesigned and pilots given better training on high altitude stall recognition and recovery. Something we'd already been doing in North America for years. The problem with the relief pilots in that crash was inexperience (they didn't operate the weather radar properly), their dispatch failed them by routing them through the thunderstorms and the training at AF didn't deal with high speed stall characteristics with the alternate law system of the airbus.

although a different event, i was thinking about your comment above as well as you mentioning elsewhere that your confident you would have handled the max8 situations. I wad doing more digging around and found more of what pilots have had to say in articles and on blogs/forums etc.

It really does seem to me that are a whole lot of pilots (mainly US based) collectively who feel that either lack of knowledge , situational awareness , training and experience or any combo of those are plying a huge role here. So many also imply that they would have known what to do even though not all familiar with the MCAS. Sort of like you (Dave) mention about the Airbus incident above alot of the same notions and information are being put out there by so many pilots. Basically saying (without getting into details because i dont understand "all" of them) that there are things they (if it were them) would have to had recognized , assessed, and reacted to under the circumstances which would have saved the aircraft/s. And so many say it with 100% certainty. Experience is no ones fault as that can only come with time and everyone has to start somewhere. Situational awareness is bread from experience but also is very much bread from knowledge and training too.

the industry claims there is a shortage of pilots and of course that means there is an even greater shortage of experienced pilots "at the wheel" so to speak. I mean the math just is what it is. And with 4 and a half billlion (4,500,000,000) passengers that took the air last year alone its easy to see just how many planes are flying and how many and pilots are needed.

Now i know its the easiest thing to play Monday morning QB with anything that already happened and pilots would be no exception. But there is so very much of this similar pilot input after the fact being thrown out there by many US pilots that it really does leave question as to weather or not many other countries do simply lack the knowledge and training in order to poses more awareness and ability to make assessments under pressure and take corrective actions.

I dont think its any secret that the US is generally known for being one of the best (if not arguably the best) as for pilot training and knowledge. Im sure some of that is some bias self rewarded title and some of which may be driven by pilot pride. But i do think that aside it just is what it is and we would (even to be fair) still rank among at least within the top as for training and knowledge. Now fwiw I could be very wrong about that. I truthfully do not know. But along with some other countries being an economic and among world leaders in many areas including aviation it stands to reason we likely do posses better trained/more knowledgeable and situational ready pilots than many other places may have. If we are , than there would be blame on some airlines (or countries) having pilots inadequate of the task of being in an out of the norm situation-ally ready scenario should things go wrong just like there was in the Brazil Airbus incident and possibly these max8 ones as well.

Just how true might that all be? And please lets not get into being politically correct here and worry someone would be insulted. That BS garbage has no place here because these are real serious questions where lives are at stake and need to be answered regardless who might feel insulted. just looking for facts here. Is there a real issue (or not) with pilots not being trained to a higher level that they should be in some other nations and their airlines? Would most US or some the other better trained cockpit crews have handled the situation and prevented the disaster? If that answer is yes then something needs to be done about that.

 

[Rusty Dave]

although a different event, i was thinking about your comment above as well as you mentioning elsewhere that your confident you would have handled the max8 situations. I wad doing more digging around and found more of what pilots have had to say in articles and on blogs/forums etc.

It really does seem to me that are a whole lot of pilots (mainly US based) collectively who feel that either lack of knowledge , situational awareness , training and experience or any combo of those are plying a huge role here. So many also imply that they would have known what to do even though not all familiar with the MCAS. Sort of like you (Dave) mention about the Airbus incident above alot of the same notions and information are being put out there by so many pilots. Basically saying (without getting into details because i dont understand "all" of them) that there are things they (if it were them) would have to had recognized , assessed, and reacted to under the circumstances which would have saved the aircraft/s. And so many say it with 100% certainty. Experience is no ones fault as that can only come with time and everyone has to start somewhere. Situational awareness is bread from experience but also is very much bread from knowledge and training too.

the industry claims there is a shortage of pilots and of course that means there is an even greater shortage of experienced pilots "at the wheel" so to speak. I mean the math just is what it is. And with 4 and a half billlion (4,500,000,000) passengers that took the air last year alone its easy to see just how many planes are flying and how many and pilots are needed.

Now i know its the easiest thing to play Monday morning QB with anything that already happened and pilots would be no exception. But there is so very much of this similar pilot input after the fact being thrown out there by many US pilots that it really does leave question as to weather or not many other countries do simply lack the knowledge and training in order to poses more awareness and ability to make assessments under pressure and take corrective actions.

I dont think its any secret that the US is generally known for being one of the best (if not arguably the best) as for pilot training and knowledge. Im sure some of that is some bias self rewarded title and some of which may be driven by pilot pride. But i do think that aside it just is what it is and we would (even to be fair) still rank among at least within the top as for training and knowledge. Now fwiw I could be very wrong about that. I truthfully do not know. But along with some other countries being an economic and among world leaders in many areas including aviation it stands to reason we likely do posses better trained/more knowledgeable and situational ready pilots than many other places may have. If we are , than there would be blame on some airlines (or countries) having pilots inadequate of the task of being in an out of the norm situation-ally ready scenario should things go wrong just like there was in the Brazil Airbus incident and possibly these max8 ones as well.

Just how true might that all be? And please lets not get into being politically correct here and worry someone would be insulted. That BS garbage has no place here because these are real serious questions where lives are at stake and need to be answered regardless who might feel insulted. just looking for facts here. Is there a real issue (or not) with pilots not being trained to a higher level that they should be in some other nations and their airlines? Would most US or some the other better trained cockpit crews have handled the situation and prevented the disaster? If that answer is yes then something needs to be done about that.

Well I'm Canadian and can truly only speak for the Canadian system however obviously being in the industry for 20+ years, I have a good understanding of what's going on worldwide in terms of training and standards.
Here's the lowdown as I see it. Certain countries train to a higher standard. It's just the way it is. China, for example, has a massive pilot shortage and has been head hunting guys like myself and throwing ridiculous amounts of money at us to go and fly over there. I looked into it and I was impressed with the training, standards and regulations that govern their pilots and aviation industry. I'm not going over there as I'd like to keep my family but it's just to give you an example. Other countries are known to not really train to a higher standard. They have standards but it's basically trained to the minimum regulations and requirements. Not many but they're out there. That being said, the problems that arise from this is when you start throwing inexperienced crews on high performance airplanes and don't provide them with the proper tools for ultimate success. That can happen anywhere or at any airline. You don't hear much about that around here because of the ridiculously high training standards most airlines have in North America. Don't get me wrong, there is a high standard of training in most parts of the world. Just not everywhere. Economics usually play a role in that.

The other issue and the far greater threat to aviation safety is the massive pilot shortage looming right now. For years, becoming an airline pilot was a long process. You had to spend upwards of 100k to get all your licensing and then make minimum wage for a few years working as a pilot to gain experience. Only after you got to a major airline and spent a few years there did you start to make good money. Before that it was a struggle. So the industry is paying for that now. For years, a US regional carrier paid it's junior pilots peanuts. I'm talking like 15k a year. How the hell are you supposed to make a living like that? It was simple supply and demand. More pilots than jobs. Why would anyone spend the next 10 years of their life living in poverty? So now that demand exceeds supply, you have positions available to inexperienced pilots that were never present before and junior pilots filling the roles that were reserved for more experienced pilots in the past as airlines are forced to put someone in the flight deck with less experience.
Now carriers are starting to wise up. Regional airlines are starting to pay a lot more to retain it's pilots and attract pilots from flight schools and smaller operators. Bigger airlines that feed from it's regional pilot feeder, are offering better incentives to keep experienced crews at these feeders before moving them up.
This shortage is worldwide. That's why when you see the Ethiopian accident, the first officer had about 400 hours total time. That's peanuts. The industry as a whole will suffer from this inexperience until it catches up on the supply and demand chain.
And to answer your question about more experienced crews handling the situation better, the answer is yes. The MCAS system was more or less briefly described to us as we started flying the max, however a runaway stabilizer is a runaway stabilizer. It's doing the opposite of what you want it to do. Control the airplane, run the checklist and go from there. It happened to several US carriers without incident.

I'm going golfing now and going to enjoy my round.