Blade vs CB Video...Interesting Results

[Sean]

I have a hard time seeing how a plus index with very good speed (you), would see much of a scoring difference with any iron profile, as long as it was set up for you properly.

I have a friend who had a set of TM M2 irons, he traded those in and purchased a set of Mizuno MP-20's. He hits the MP-20's better than the M2's, and his scores are lower as well. His ball speed is in the mid-180s. He can hit towering 3-irons with either a fade or a draw. In any case, he is much happier with the MP-20s than he was with the M2s.

 

[Tenputt]

I have a friend who had a set of TM M2 irons, he traded those in and purchased a set of Mizuno MP-20's. He hits the MP-20's better than the M2's, and his scores are lower as well. His ball speed is in the mid-180s. He can hit towering 3-irons with either a fade or a draw. In any case, he is much happier with the MP-20s than he was with the M2s.

The setup is crucial. I should qualify my post, though, how a profile looks to us can make a big difference in how confidently we make a pass at the ball. My point really was that a really good ball striker will Likely play well with anything, so long as it is set up with an appropriate shaft, length/lie, etc.

 

[Dawg 1]

I haven’t looked and I stopped watching his stuff quite a while ago, but to be fair, isn’t he playing a more compact profile in pw up to 5 or 6 iron?


It is not ideal, but certainly better than no fitting at all. We don’t have many opportunities for outdoor fittings around here. I don’t think it is as big of a deal with drivers, since they don’t strike the ground. Turf interaction, particularly off of less than perfect lies, can make a big difference in how we strike the ball.

I believe the club I was getting lessons at will fit off either. They have a very nice indoor and outdoor setup. Don’t know how well the GC Quad will do for me on grass since I am a digger

 

[erock9174]

Love it or hate it ..... we’re up to 3 pages of discussion.

..... just sayin

 

[McLovin]

I think that probably goes to the 'we're all crazy' argument, and that people do actually swing differently based on what they're looking at and how they feel about it.

i believe this in a big way. many people swing more confidently with something they like to look at, even if empirically it doesn’t work as well for them.

to your other question, mavrik standard is probably better for me.

 

[GraniteRoost]

cool, so a scratch golfer has a tight dispersion. let's do this test with a 20-30 handicapper.

and this is why I despise Crossfield. he parades his data like it's disrupting the industry and pulling back the curtain on the wizard of oz. when in reality he has (intentionally?) constructed his test to answer a question no one asked, but presents the conclusion as if it answers the question that everyone asks. here, the question is presented as "does a cavity back offer better forgiveness on mishits?" but he isn't answering that question; the actual question he's answering is "does a scratch golfer with a high-quality repeatable swing benefit from maximum forgiveness over a large data set?"

mid to high handicaps are asking the first question, and literally no one is asking the second question. but he presents the conclusion in a way that is directed at the mid to high handicap asking the first question, and they'll walk away less informed and more misguided than before they watched his stupid video.

I'm asking the second question!

 

[McLovin]

I'm asking the second question!

over a large data set i can’t ever imagine the answer being yes. that golfer has such a repeatable swing that the averages will never support the more forgiving club. the scratch golfer won’t miss often enough to make a difference, and the conclusion will always be that the irons perform materially the same. which is a load of rat turds.

 

[GraniteRoost]

over a large data set i can’t ever imagine the answer being yes. that golfer has such a repeatable swing that the averages will never support the more forgiving club. the scratch golfer won’t miss often enough to make a difference, and the conclusion will always be that the irons perform materially the same. which is a load of rat turds.

But, the conclusion isn't that they perform the same. The blades are offering tighter ballspeed, launch, and carry for some golfers. Personally, I would bet my dispersion area is smaller with Apex MB than Mavrik MAX (I hit Mav STD and it was mixed), thus I would not benefit from "Maximum Forgiveness". To wit, I played blades to my best season in 25 years last year. I interpret the point of the video that while modern "SGI" gear, launches better, has higher peak ballspeeds, and raw distance potential, that may come with some tradeoffs in certain areas, like consistency.

No one is asking why the video creator had more trouble with distance/ball speed control on the Mav MAX, so I will. (Yes the video is rigged.) Not a brand specific question, so let's make it brand agnostic. Rickie doesn't play SpeedZone short irons, presumably because they are LESS easy to produce the desired result than his new blades, therefore LESS forgiving for his game.

I think the video provokes a discussion of what type of help a golfer needs, and how to best match equipment. Forgiveness means different things to different golfers.

 

[BigMac]

...I think the video provokes a discussion of what type of help a golfer needs, and how to best match equipment. Forgiveness means different things to different golfers.

I had never thought of it that way, but that's a very interesting point. To a low 'capper who makes consistent contact with the center of the club face, forgiveness might mean consistency/control in distance. For a higher 'capper, forgiveness might mean better results with off-center strikes.

 

[GraniteRoost]

I had never thought of it that way, but that's a very interesting point. To a low 'capper who makes consistent contact with the center of the club face, forgiveness might mean consistency/control in distance. For a higher 'capper, forgiveness might mean better results with off-center strikes.

Exactly!

 

[dthrog00]

People should play what they want to play. You want technology? Play the GI/SGI club. You want tradition? Play the blade. You want something in between? Go for it.

If Crossfield's result showed better results for the technology iron would the reaction be different?

Dave

 

[Mark_UK]

He posted yesterday that the forums would hate that video. He was right LOL.

 

[Joshnoble01]

Yeah. But it's because it based on a false pretense. At least he knows people will see through it.

 

[dthrog00]

Yeah. But it's because it based on a false pretense. At least he knows people will see through it.

But why? Because of the mat? Because he's good? What is the false pretense?

Dave

 

[BigMac]

He posted yesterday that the forums would hate that video. He was right LOL.

I mean, in all honesty I hate most of his videos.

 

[Joshnoble01]

But why? Because of the mat? Because he's good? What is the false pretense?

Dave

Because he's really good and hits the ball dead center but the video is posted like if a hack went out they would get the same results. The false pretense is that the stats have validity for a majority of golfers. When the reality is that maybe 5% of golfers would get those results.

 

[dthrog00]

Because he's really good and hits the ball dead center but the video is posted like if a hack went out they would get the same results. The false pretense is that the stats have validity for a majority of golfers. When the reality is that maybe 5% of golfers would get those results.

Did he say the stats were for a majority of golfers though?

He is a very good golfer, but he doesn't hit dead center. His strike information showed that during the video.

Dave

 

[ArmyGolf]

I won't comment on the video specifically but I will say this.
I've always found iron size to be mostly irrelevant to the scores I shoot. I don't know why, but it's been proven for my game over and over again. I tend to find center-ish often enough but really struggle with face-to-path no matter the iron in hand.

SGI clubs aren't a golden ticket to easier golf, just like blades aren't a massive waterfall straight into the depths of hell. The truth is relative to each golfer's game and can usually be found something in the middle.

 

[Dawg 1]

But why? Because of the mat? Because he's good? What is the false pretense?

Dave

There isn't one bud. He made a video and showed the results he got from it that's it. Mark has other videos comparing blades to a more GI type iron as well as other youtubers

I can't find a video anywhere where Mark tells golfers they should go out and play blades. He also has other videos explaining why he games the clubs he has in his bag. Which consist of hybrids and more tech based irons. I guess people just look over those

 

[Mark_UK]

There isn't one bud. He made a video and showed the results he got from it that's it. Mark has other videos comparing blades to a more GI type iron as well as other youtubers

I can't find a video anywhere where Mark tells golfers they should go out and play blades. He also has other videos explaining why he games the clubs he has in his bag. Which consist of hybrids and more tech based irons. I guess people just look over those

Anyone would think you actually watch his videos rather than just hit play, then huff and puff the whole way through LOL.

 

[Flipit]

interesting. I usually shy away from comparison videos because there's really only one viable way to do it... On grass, with exact same shafts and loft/lies, and identical swing weights.

The first thing Mark says in this video about the Top Flite is that it feels light, which already tells me the two clubs profile different. I've got video of my own on YouTube where I absolutely blitz the center of an MB face with a bunch of balls -- but I'm not about to compare that to a more forgiving head. Sometimes there's just a great connection between a weight profile and a golfer.

Totally agree. I really struggle with the heavier head of a GI iron. I felt more comfortable with something a little more compact and I believe lighter, although I never weighed them. The fact he can hit one club than the other swing after swing amazes me. It would mess me up going back and forth.

 

[heribertomaya]

without reliable club and ball data as well as 3d mapping of your swing with each, how do you know it's the blades that are performing better for you? how do you know you're not just swinging differently?

I dont anyone on this world needs "realiable 3d mapping" to reflect on the some obvious improvement in strike when using a club vs another (results dont lie), and of course I swing them differently, that Exactly why i play with them better. Its all about the size for me, the smaller the size, the brain automatically will adjust and focus more on hitting that smaller target vs a larged headed shovel which only works to confused the brain, cause now the brain doesnt have a specific target (too big)

 

[McLovin]

I dont anyone on this world needs "realiable 3d mapping" to reflect on the some obvious improvement in strike when using a club vs another (results dont lie), and of course I swing them differently, that Exactly why i play with them better. Its all about the size for me, the smaller the size, the brain automatically will adjust and focus more on hitting that smaller target vs a larged headed shovel which only works to confused the brain, cause now the brain doesnt have a specific target (too big)

I don't think you understood what I was saying. You said blades are better for you. While the result may be better, the club itself is not doing anything better for you; you are making adjustments that are producing better results. The improved results are not because of any inherent design benefit of the club. If you were able to make the same exact swing with a more forgiving club vs the least forgiving club, I believe your results would be better with the more forgiving club.

But don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you that certain club shapes and sizes can instill confidence in some golfers, and that confidence is an unquantifiable metric in the selection process that is very important. If you have the most fun with a blade, by all means keep rocking those beauties in your bag! You're also a 4 handicap, not a 14 or 24 handicap, so I would venture to say you have a skillset that makes you more capable of playing demanding clubs better than a less skilled golfer.

 

[heribertomaya]

I don't think you understood what I was saying. You said blades are better for you. While the result may be better, the club itself is not doing anything better for you; you are making adjustments that are producing better results. The improved results are not because of any inherent design benefit of the club. If you were able to make the same exact swing with a more forgiving club vs the least forgiving club, I believe your results would be better with the more forgiving club.

But don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you that certain club shapes and sizes can instill confidence in some golfers, and that confidence is an unquantifiable metric in the selection process that is very important. If you have the most fun with a blade, by all means keep rocking those beauties in your bag! You're also a 4 handicap, not a 14 or 24 handicap, so I would venture to say you have a skillset that makes you more capable of playing demanding clubs better than a less skilled golfer.

ahh got it now : ) (misunderstood you the first time). in that way I would agree, if I made the same exact swing on both then GI would provide benefits, but the thing is for many, the looks of a club will change their swing without them even knowing, sometimes for good, sometimes for worse.

 

[golfunfiltered]

I don't think you understood what I was saying. You said blades are better for you. While the result may be better, the club itself is not doing anything better for you; you are making adjustments that are producing better results. The improved results are not because of any inherent design benefit of the club. If you were able to make the same exact swing with a more forgiving club vs the least forgiving club, I believe your results would be better with the more forgiving club.

But don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you that certain club shapes and sizes can instill confidence in some golfers, and that confidence is an unquantifiable metric in the selection process that is very important. If you have the most fun with a blade, by all means keep rocking those beauties in your bag! You're also a 4 handicap, not a 14 or 24 handicap, so I would venture to say you have a skillset that makes you more capable of playing demanding clubs better than a less skilled golfer.

This is an interesting take to me, because doesn't everything boil down to measures of success? And isn't the best measure score?