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Can't stop going over the top

GolfLivesMatter said:
I agree with razaar...same swing with some new sensation that feels different, but that happens to everyone who is trying to break a habit. Still all upper body. Check you your position at impact (below) vs. Couples. You don't have to be in the exact position like Couples, but check out his hip rotation and he hasn't hit the ball yet. If I were you, I would start working on rotating your hips and the club travels down following the rotation. Try feeling like there's a club attached to your right pocket and you must rotate the right pocket to hit the ball. Plus, work on absolutely relaxing any muscles/tension from your grip through your shoulders to the point you feel like upper body is feeling like it's along for the ride based on lower body turn. You're not going to like the feeling but you'll start to get used to it if you keep working from the bottom-up.
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That was mainly why I came here, help on how to get the hips moving before the upper body. I find it extremely difficult, and based on where my top position was before Stryker helped me out, it was near impossible. Obviously I'm going to continue working on this. Rome wasn't built in a day...

Thanks!
 
azbrewer said:
That was mainly why I came here, help on how to get the hips moving before the upper body. I find it extremely difficult, and based on where my top position was before Stryker helped me out, it was near impossible. Obviously I'm going to continue working on this. Rome wasn't built in a day...

Thanks!
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Also, take note of Couple's trail shoulder in the image above compared to yours. It's pointing downward while you look like you are standing normally at impact.

I personally find it very difficult to try and start the swing with the lower body, and think it should be a reaction to what you are doing. Like throwing a punch or throwing a baseball. However, you can't just pull/swing with the arms because you are getting the handle down/shaft steepening result from it. That's why I'm suggesting you spend some time focusing on getting your shoulders turning down in both the backswing and downswing. Let the hips and lower body do what they need to do in order to get your shoulder tilt improved.

Tom Watson called what I'm describing "the secret". He did it to fix the opposite problem you are having (reverse "C"/K and getting stuck), but it would work for you too.

 
razaar said:
The role of the trail hand and arm is to assist the target side by helping to guide and support it, not overpower it and do its work. The feeling you need to accept in the trail arm/shoulder is the sensation of losing an arm wrestle. It is an uncomfortable sensation but we have to deal with it until it becomes habit.
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I struggle with a slight over-the-top action as well and this bit of advice seemed to really click for me so thanks very much for writing this, Played 9 today and really focused on this and seemed to be hitting the ball much more solid. Hopefully it “sticks”!
 
Andrew808 said:
I struggle with a slight over-the-top action as well and this bit of advice seemed to really click for me so thanks very much for writing this, Played 9 today and really focused on this and seemed to be hitting the ball much more solid. Hopefully it “sticks”!
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It's a battle no doubt. What you want to work on is this, and it has to be without a club to prevent brain fade into old habits. Fold your arms crossed over your chest at address. Rotate back to a 90* turn. Now at this point turn your hips without moving your shoulders...SLOWLY...as much as you can. You want to start feeling the disconnect between the lower and upper body....hips rotate...shoulders stay. Keep doing that as a stretch-type exercise to loosen-up the muscles required. Also, make sure your knee bend feels "athletic", like you want to jump off the ground. Don't just have namby pamby knee bend. Feel "poised to leap".

After doing this far more than you think you need to do, like 100X more, then get a PW and take the club back and do the exact same disconnect to get used to holding a club.

This is exactly how I broke the lower body loose to the point my legs are fatigued after a round of golf.
 
I have my own golf swing issues so I don’t feel qualified to correct you. George Gankas has some great swing videos. Or simpler to follow and interpret is Danny Maude on youtube. I think you need to begin your rotation instead of pulling your arms down. I believe it’s Gankas that says if you start your rotation first you won’t be able to come over the top.
 
ApexFan said:
I have my own golf swing issues so I don’t feel qualified to correct you. George Gankas has some great swing videos. Or simpler to follow and interpret is Danny Maude on youtube. I think you need to begin your rotation instead of pulling your arms down. I believe it’s Gankas that says if you start your rotation first you won’t be able to come over the top.
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They are good instructors....I've watched them. But what they don't mention is the upper body, arms, wrists must be relaxed to make what they say happen...which requires watching Paul Wilson videos as a supplement. In a relaxed state, and upon rotation, the arms will travel in rotation with the hips very easily. There is no "pulling the club down" as some espouse because that defeats the purpose of creating speed by adding leverage, which causes the arms to trail too far behind.

The disconnection of the upper and lower body is fundamental to get even close to a Couples-like position at impact.
 
See a PGA professional, unless a poster here has past their PAT test. You’re better off watching Youtube of PGA teachers.
 
Andrew808 said:
I struggle with a slight over-the-top action as well and this bit of advice seemed to really click for me so thanks very much for writing this, Played 9 today and really focused on this and seemed to be hitting the ball much more solid. Hopefully it “sticks”!
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You are welcome.
The trail arm works the same as the shooting arm in free throws and throwing a baseball. The elbow leads the hand with both upper arm and forearm straightening at the same pace. The shoulder is externally rotated and internally rotates when the hand catches and passed the elbow. We can only use the internal rotation of the trail shoulder once, therefore it needs to be through impact. Holding clubhead lag is really keeping the trail shoulder externally rotated and the trail elbow ahead of the hands.
 
GolfLivesMatter said:
They are good instructors....I've watched them. But what they don't mention is the upper body, arms, wrists must be relaxed to make what they say happen...which requires watching Paul Wilson videos as a supplement. In a relaxed state, and upon rotation, the arms will travel in rotation with the hips very easily. There is no "pulling the club down" as some espouse because that defeats the purpose of creating speed by adding leverage, which causes the arms to trail too far behind.

The disconnection of the upper and lower body is fundamental to get even close to a Couples-like position at impact.
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I agree here the more relaxed the upper body the better. That’s what people are referring to when talking about a tension free loose and relaxed swing. You will actually swing faster because the tense muscles are fighting against you. I tend to think about this in my setup as starting with feeling my shoulders loosen up once I am over the ball and then try and feel that looseness trickle down my arms and in to my hands.

The club is like a clock pendulum. There is a specific low point where if left to swing free without our bodies fighting it, it will come through smooth and pure every time. If we fight it, it will not be true each time.

I also try to feel like the club is falling straight down as I start my downswing and try to feel like I am swinging at an angle away from my body at impact. That helps me keep from coming over the top and if done correctly with the correct closure to the face, it is near impossible to hit a slice. The face is pointed more closed and the spin makes the ball want to go in a draw shape. Just don’t shut the face down massively or it’s going to be ugly. Been there done that too. It definitely is something you have to force to feel though. It’s hard to trust the ball is going to react the way it does until you successfully pull it off a few times. After that you will start to see what I am saying about trying to feel these things.
 
Stryker said:
I agree here the more relaxed the upper body the better. That’s what people are referring to when talking about a tension free loose and relaxed swing. You will actually swing faster because the tense muscles are fighting against you. I tend to think about this in my setup as starting with feeling my shoulders loosen up once I am over the ball and then try and feel that looseness trickle down my arms and in to my hands.

The club is like a clock pendulum. There is a specific low point where if left to swing free without our bodies fighting it, it will come through smooth and pure every time. If we fight it, it will not be true each time.

I also try to feel like the club is falling straight down as I start my downswing and try to feel like I am swinging at an angle away from my body at impact. That helps me keep from coming over the top and if done correctly with the correct closure to the face, it is near impossible to hit a slice. The face is pointed more closed and the spin makes the ball want to go in a draw shape. Just don’t shut the face down massively or it’s going to be ugly. Been there done that too. It definitely is something you have to force to feel though. It’s hard to trust the ball is going to react the way it does until you successfully pull it off a few times. After that you will start to see what I am saying about trying to feel these things.
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Well stated, just like any PGA instructor.
 
Stryker said:
I agree here the more relaxed the upper body the better. That’s what people are referring to when talking about a tension free loose and relaxed swing. You will actually swing faster because the tense muscles are fighting against you. I tend to think about this in my setup as starting with feeling my shoulders loosen up once I am over the ball and then try and feel that looseness trickle down my arms and in to my hands.

The club is like a clock pendulum. There is a specific low point where if left to swing free without our bodies fighting it, it will come through smooth and pure every time. If we fight it, it will not be true each time.

I also try to feel like the club is falling straight down as I start my downswing and try to feel like I am swinging at an angle away from my body at impact. That helps me keep from coming over the top and if done correctly with the correct closure to the face, it is near impossible to hit a slice. The face is pointed more closed and the spin makes the ball want to go in a draw shape. Just don’t shut the face down massively or it’s going to be ugly. Been there done that too. It definitely is something you have to force to feel though. It’s hard to trust the ball is going to react the way it does until you successfully pull it off a few times. After that you will start to see what I am saying about trying to feel these things.
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How do you get your pelvis to lock with the upper body in order to use ground forces to power the swing. Being loose makes no sense to me given that there is no time to use the muscles to power the swing. The arms need a solid foundation to work from. If everything is loose the movements will be loose.
The early instructors taught bracing the target shoulder with the trail hip so that when one moved the other moved. All the elite players I know set up this way at address.
This loose, relaxed setup is another gem that has filtered into popular golf instruction when journalists got involved. Does Bryson DeChambeau look relaxed at address before he drives a 300 yard + bomb?
 
All I can tell you is simply -- Leave your arms at the top (resist the hit urge), and let your lower body and then chest do its thing before the arms come in last.

I think what will help is being relaxed, and find a rhythm and tempo that is you. The too slow to too fast - the urge to hit with your arms is strong in you.
 
GolfLivesMatter said:
Your swing starts with your right shoulder because it's an all upper-body swing. Right-handers do this naturally. IMO you should take very short swings back, then rotate your left hip left/up and completely relax any body part that is above your belt buckle.
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I’m so far from an expert it isn’t funny. But I generally agree with GLM. Your swing looks a bit out of sequence and not especially so OTT that I’d worry about it.
 
razaar said:
How do you get your pelvis to lock with the upper body in order to use ground forces to power the swing. Being loose makes no sense to me given that there is no time to use the muscles to power the swing. The arms need a solid foundation to work from. If everything is loose the movements will be loose.
The early instructors taught bracing the target shoulder with the trail hip so that when one moved the other moved. All the elite players I know set up this way at address.
This loose, relaxed setup is another gem that has filtered into popular golf instruction when journalists got involved. Does Bryson DeChambeau look relaxed at address before he drives a 300 yard + bomb?
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DeChambeau looks like a freaking robot and not what I would use as an example to an amateur personally. We are going to have to agree to disagree on the rest. I know what I find works for me and why. You want to be tense that’s fine but your muscles are just fighting you that way. I am not say being sloppy but not tensed up. Your core on the other hand is where you should feel your muscles working and that is where muscle power comes from. As far as distance, it has a heck of a lot more to do with flexibility then muscle in my opinion. The larger the turn the fast the club is going to rotate.
 
Stryker said:
DeChambeau looks like a freaking robot and not what I would use as an example to an amateur personally. We are going to have to agree to disagree on the rest. I know what I find works for me and why. You want to be tense that’s fine but your muscles are just fighting you that way. I am not say being sloppy but not tensed up. Your core on the other hand is where you should feel your muscles working and that is where muscle power comes from. As far as distance, it has a heck of a lot more to do with flexibility then muscle in my opinion. The larger the turn the fast the club is going to rotate.
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I think you will find Kelvin Miyahira's article published in May 2015 - Muscle Power Golf?....Not! - very enlightening.
Sorry I can't download it as an attachment, user error.
I won't agree to disagree on this until after you have read the article.
 
razaar said:
I think you will find Kelvin Miyahira's article published in May 2015 - Muscle Power Golf?....Not! - very enlightening.
Sorry I can't download it as an attachment, user error.
I won't agree to disagree on this until after you have read the article.
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Good luck with that. To be honest I don’t have the time or inclination to go searching for an article because you demand it for us to disagree. That is kind of silly to be honest.
 
tequila4kapp said:
I’m so far from an expert it isn’t funny. But I generally agree with GLM. Your swing looks a bit out of sequence and not especially so OTT that I’d worry about it.
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LOL! I post what I've learned from very costly top instructors that I have trusted over the years, along with details from my personal struggles, thoughts/ideas that have worked for me. The OP is doing almost exactly what I did when I had a stint of shanking ball after ball on the range, then the pro came by and said "you're leading with your right shoulder". This game is so complex because everyone sees and feels something different.
 
My advice:

Get some really old clubs and go somewhere safe in a park or some practice area on the golf course .

Now start throwing them to a target like Shawn Clement video below . Once you start feeling a naturalness and fluidity in your swing (without any strain) that matches your body type and uses external focus to swing/throw the club to a target your OTT move will disappear. At the moment , you are focusing on hitting the ball , not feeling an intent on where you want the ball to go to (you have to release the club to the target).



Here's another good one

 
WILDTHING said:
My advice:

Get some really old clubs and go somewhere safe in a park or some practice area on the golf course .

Now start throwing them to a target like Shawn Clement video below . Once you start feeling a naturalness and fluidity in your swing (without any strain) that matches your body type and uses external focus to swing/throw the club to a target your OTT move will disappear. At the moment , you are focusing on hitting the ball , not feeling an intent on where you want the ball to go to (you have to release the club to the target).

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The Williams sisters did this while learning to serve in tennis.
 
Azbrewer: Think of the forward swing in this way. The end of the handle and the sole of the club have to be moving in the same direction from the start of it all the way through impact. That means the end of the handle will get back to the ball before the clubhead does.

Swing very slowly, I mean in slow motion, with your left hand only on the club so you can see how this works. Now put both hands on the club, and swing very slowly again so the handle gets to the ball before the clubhead does.

What about coming over the top? If you make the move I describe at the bottom, it is not possible to have made that killing move at the top.

Having the handle lead the clubhead into the ball is something every good golfer does. And vice versa.
 
I am far from the swing expert many on here are. I struggled badly w/ casting or coming over the top for quite some time. I too was a natural "upper body" swinger. I did the glove under armpit connectivity drills. You will get arguments for under your left arm, under your right arm, and under both arms. I really don't know the answer for which is right but any of the 3 help a 'upper body" swinger get the proper feel for staying connected. I started out at like 60-75% of a swing and had to work my way back up to a full swing.
 
I've got a decent swing but as soon as I get warmed up two things start to happen (1) over the top. (2) chunky. About 3 weeks at the end of the good practice I removed my right thumb and trigger finger from shaft (i am right handed). What happened then amazed me. Longer and less variance. I guess the old tip from Ben hogan in the 5 fundamentals was accurate for some. I played this way Sunday and it was a homerun. I won't play with those fingers on the club in 2020 including chips. When the dominant hand takes over at in and at the top of the backswing it is devastating. i believe because I was pretty athletic when young it has impeded me for years.

10 minutes on the range and you decide for yourself
 
azbrewer said:
I'm really struggling with my transition from backswing to downswing and I tend to hitch at the top and come down over the line. I've been watching lots of YouTube videos on transition, but I can't seem to figure how to start turning my hips before my shoulders and allow the club to drop below the line in the downswing. Any thoughts or advice is appreciated! Videos below
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Starting the downswing with your hands is a continual problem I have encountered.
I have come up with several things, which I will detail.
1. Make sure I lift my left heel (for righties) on the backswing and have a swing though of pounding my left heel into the ground to start the downswing. This helps.
2. You need to tuck your right elbow (for righties) into your right hip as you begin down.
3. I have built a little contraption that keeps me on the inside. Made of 3/4” pvc pipe. I will get a picture up.
Good luck
 
azbrewer, look at your transition move. You bring the club back very flat, then start your downswing by moving your upper body toward the ball. This guarantees an over the top motion in a couple of ways. This move forces a steeper clubhead path back to the ball. This upper body movement toward the ball starts your shoulder movement. Once started, it's going to continue, especially because you are rotating your upper body. Now at this point, your spine angle has changed moving your upper body closer to the ball and the clubhead is coming down on a steep plane. If nothing changes, the clubhead is going to crash into the ground behind the ball. In reaction, you pull your upper body away from the ball late in the swing. This is why you find your upper body tends to lean left (from the down the line view) as you complete your swing. Your swing as it is challenges both your timing and balance.

I hope you can see the chain reaction, now that I've pointed it out.

Working with an instructor is the way to go.
 
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