Difference between an 80 golfer and a 90 golfer

For me it a matter of hitting greens.
 
There's not much worse then bombing a great drive on a new course then finding out it ended up in an unseen hazard.
Been there, done that. A couple weeks ago I hit a BOMB (for me) and right into a hazard I had no idea was there.
 
The other times I've score low 80's instead of around 90, it was the par 3's that I feasted on. Home course has 5 of them and they aren't long but water on 4/5 and greens are tricky for certain pin positions. Those low rounds I was from -1 to +1 or 2 in total for the 5 par 3's. That's a lot of 3's on the card that add up nicely.
 
The double bogey scenario is almost always the result of a penalty, which is more often than not the result of a tee shot.

If I drank it, I'd definitely tell you hold my beer on that one. I could show you a thing or two.
 
Been there, done that. A couple weeks ago I hit a BOMB (for me) and right into a hazard I had no idea was there.
Funny thing was I basically did a club twirl, grabbed the tee and was headed back to the cart. Kinda warm & fuzzy, I glanced down the fairway and saw that dang splash... at least I knew the fate instead of scanning the bank hoping it plugged up short or something...
 
A 90 golfer hits shots that are just as good as the 80 golfer, but the 80 golfer hits them more often. That sounds obvious, but it's not.

Being a mid to upper 90's golfer I would concur. My son in law is a 12 handicap. He says I'm better off the tee with the driver than he is. But he's better from the fairway. The biggest difference though is his short game. We were playing a round not too long ago. He was off to a rough start. On the first hole, a par 5 he was hitting his par shot from the difficult greenside rough on an elevated green with not much green to work with. Hits a good chip and makes the 15 foot putt for bogey. Does exactly the same thing on the second hole. Tough chip and tough putt after hitting bad shots and makes bogey. The then starts to make pars. If that was me, it woulda been double bogey or worse on each hole.
 
If I drank it, I'd definitely tell you hold my beer on that one. I could show you a thing or two.
Honestly though, how often are you near the green in 2 on a par 4 (3 on a par 5) and then take 4 shots to get into the hole? I know it's possible, but should be pretty rare if you are able to get the ball moving toward the hole consistently and are trying to go from shooting in the 90's to the 80's.

Players that are consistently taking 3 shots to get to the green on a par 4 (4 shots on a par 5) are not shooting scores in the 90's. It's mathematically impossible. Even if a player only does so half of a round, they are still already in the 80's just from the extra approach shots. That's before we factor in any penalties, two chips/pitches, and/or 3 putts.
 
Players that are consistently taking 3 shots to get to the green on a par 4 (4 shots on a par 5) are not shooting scores in the 90's.
Beg to differ on this point. I am frequently GIR+1 and shoots 80s all the time. To be fair, I have a pretty good chipping and putting game.
 
wow....6 months to break 80. Thats incredible.
I been playing for decades and struggle to keep things below 90 (and still most rounds are not).
Its amazing to me how many folks out there this game came so relatively easy for. I mean good for you but thats incredible. I mean even to say shooting sub 90 regularly in just 6 months in itself would be incredible. But braking 80? just wow!
Before I struck my first golf shot I had been caddyng for my house mate who was our local club professional and had witnessed many of our countries best golfers in action. My mate was the same age as me who had completed his apprenticeship under a pro who taught Peter Thompson's golf swing. We had pictures of Thompson's swing struck on the walls throughout the house.
 
Honestly though, how often are you near the green in 2 on a par 4 (3 on a par 5) and then take 4 shots to get into the hole? I know it's possible, but should be pretty rare if you are able to get the ball moving toward the hole consistently and are trying to go from shooting in the 90's to the 80's.

Players that are consistently taking 3 shots to get to the green on a par 4 (4 shots on a par 5) are not shooting scores in the 90's. It's mathematically impossible. Even if a player only does so half of a round, they are still already in the 80's just from the extra approach shots. That's before we factor in any penalties, two chips/pitches, and/or 3 putts.
There are a lot of assumptions, inaccuracies, and unfamiliarity with @OGputtnfool 's cards in this statement. Anything and everything IS possible out there, especially by him.
 
There are a lot of assumptions, inaccuracies, and unfamiliarity with @OGputtnfool 's cards in this statement. Anything and everything IS possible out there, especially by him.
Lol, no. It’s simple math. Take @millsan1 for example, he says he is frequently GIR+1. I don’t know what frequently is to him, but if you do that for 18 holes you are at 90 before any other mistakes/strokes. This just goes back to many, if not the majority, dramatically under-estimating their real index. I think for many it’s not on purpose.
 
Lol, no. It’s simple math. Take @millsan1 for example, he says he is frequently GIR+1. I don’t know what frequently is to him, but if you do that for 18 holes you are at 90 before any other mistakes/strokes. This just goes back to many, if not the majority, dramatically under-estimating their real index. I think for many it’s not on purpose.

I think it depends though, right? There are different ways to be GIR + 1. Outside of being sideways off the tee I'm usually more or less greenside in 2, but I'd say "frequently" off the green - maybe 40% of the time? Most of my rounds are in the 80s. But there's a big difference between chipping on and hitting a 70 yard 3rd shot into a par 4.

This probably comes down to words with "squishy" definitions - I scrolled up and noticed you first used the term "consistently" and I'd probably agree with you there vs "frequently". Outside of guys with a WAY better short game than their handicap would suggest.
 
Lol, no. It’s simple math. Take @millsan1 for example, he says he is frequently GIR+1. I don’t know what frequently is to him, but if you do that for 18 holes you are at 90 before any other mistakes/strokes. This just goes back to many, if not the majority, dramatically under-estimating their real index. I think for many it’s not on purpose.

Any player whose getting a lot of GIR+1 is going to get their fair share of GIR's as well.
 
I think par 3s are the hardest to get par in general & 5s are a free par
I apologize - I would have thought that a hole with a yardage in the 120-150 yard range would be a reasonable single-shot expectation, even for a 90 shooter. Would it be a fair comment that without water they are likely a penalty-free tee shot? Unlike, say a par 4 or 5 where you might slice driver OB?
For me, when I "cracked the code" and went from a 90s shooter to 80 or better the biggest gains I saw were from eliminating the penalties, and playing FIR and GIR. Sure, I'd still 3 putt every now and again, but if I could find the fairway, and be on the green in regulation I had a very high percentage of making par. The more often the GIR happened, the more opportunities that presented themselves for birdie, and every now and again I could convert one. One birdie offsets a double-bogey in my mind when you are looking at the final tally.
 
The problem with your statement is that everything you mention is indeed very significant and nothing about it is to be considered just a few small things. Your statements in red below followed by my answers to them show just how very significant the difference is. .

Think of it this way:
- bogey golf on a par 72 course is 90

And yet an 80 only leaves 8 shots worth of forgiveness vs 18 shots for the 90. Thats a world of difference over only 80 attempted strokes. Huge significance

- par 3s usually present the best opportunity for par, and most courses have at least 4 of them
a 90 player does not hit many greens at all vs an 80 player so the par3 is no more touchable green than any other hole and yet the 90 player is more errant more times and also less efficient at finishing while also being further away and or also from worse lie situations.

- I always consider that on a par 5 you get one "less than perfect" shot but can still make par or at worst bogey
There is a huge reason why many par5's are often among the higher handicapped holes on most courses even though those same holes may often be considered some the easiest ones on that course. Its because highest cap holes are not the hardest holes but instead are the ones in which the bogey (90) player needs the most help vs the scratch player (or in this case the 80 player). The p5 is where the 90 player needs the most help because his lack of consistent ball striking struggles to allow him 3 good shots in a row. He simply just not doing that nearly as often and in fact very often not doing it. The difference in consistent ball striking (or lack of) is too significant.

- avoiding the penalties is paramount; counting by twos runs up the total quick
yes it does ...I agree totaly and again not at all something insignificant but indeed a very big deal. Significant lack of consistency with ball striking required to stop being penal. Some of which can be tamed from stropping the bad decisions but none the less is still lack of consistency.

- if you can hit 50% of the par 4s and 5s in regulation even the dreaded 3 jack still leaves you with bogey. I would bet most golfers would convert a portion of those into pars with good lag putting
Chances are if the 90 player was hitting 50% he would already be the 80 player (and maybe better) ..... I mean just think about that one. And fwiw just about all of it (the above). The differences are all very significant and far from anything less.
My original thought process was what it would take to turn a score of 90 into a score where the first digit is an 8, not necessarily drop 10 strokes to go from 90 to 80. Bogey on every hole would put you at 90; if you could convert just one or two of those into pars you will be the in the 80s. I agree 110% that turning a score of 90 into a score of 80 is far more involved. No different than trying to get to scratch from a 5 handicap.
I can still vividly remember the first few rounds I played after taking a package of three lessons which changed my game forever. Prior to these I would shoot upper 80s to mid 90s, lose several balls per round and therefore accumulate several penalties. Two or three 7s on the card was normal. The biggest takeaway for me was the benefit of keeping the ball in play - finding the fairway, which then led to greens in regulation. That was my new goal: FIR and GIR would net me the occasional birdie, most of the time par and occasionally a bogey or worse.
I still believe that to go from a score of 90 to a score of 88 only requires that the player keep the ball moving forward - by not losing strokes to penalties, and to not compound one mistake with another.
 
1.) the course plays a huge part... good design punishes mistakes, old crappy munis can help you avoid issues. In other words, even a strong player will miss greens and when you have an easy chip with nothing in front of you, it’s just easier to get the ball closer. Versus, being under the hole and having a two tiered green with a lot of stuff (bunkers , slope) in front of you. Essentially, courses that don’t allow for the keep it short and bounce it on, or a simple putt / chip from the fridge. That’s a huge difference between the two classes... a better player just chips it within a 6 ft circle more often. Leading to less three putts.

2.) short game... it’s everything. Yips , mental mistakes etc. often boils down to poor club choice, see players taking too much loft / a bounce angle that isn’t right for their swing / course conditions / lie in front of them.
 
Lol, no. It’s simple math. Take @millsan1 for example, he says he is frequently GIR+1. I don’t know what frequently is to him, but if you do that for 18 holes you are at 90 before any other mistakes/strokes.
How? GIR+1+1 (putt) is a par on any hole.
 
How? GIR+1+1 (putt) is a par on any hole.
Because the putting average for 6-10 index’s is 33.7 and 11-15 is 34.8. So neither index range is 1 putting enough to compensate. Maybe once in a while when they are playing their best and better than their index.
 
My original thought process was what it would take to turn a score of 90 into a score where the first digit is an 8, not necessarily drop 10 strokes to go from 90 to 80. Bogey on every hole would put you at 90; if you could convert just one or two of those into pars you will be the in the 80s. I agree 110% that turning a score of 90 into a score of 80 is far more involved. No different than trying to get to scratch from a 5 handicap.
I can still vividly remember the first few rounds I played after taking a package of three lessons which changed my game forever. Prior to these I would shoot upper 80s to mid 90s, lose several balls per round and therefore accumulate several penalties. Two or three 7s on the card was normal. The biggest takeaway for me was the benefit of keeping the ball in play - finding the fairway, which then led to greens in regulation. That was my new goal: FIR and GIR would net me the occasional birdie, most of the time par and occasionally a bogey or worse.
I still believe that to go from a score of 90 to a score of 88 only requires that the player keep the ball moving forward - by not losing strokes to penalties, and to not compound one mistake with another.
certainly 90 to 88ish is far different thing vs 90 to 80.
My success or failure at general ball striking (keeping the ball moving forward as you say and i agree) is what (if not detrimental) first gives my game a fighting chance of attempting shooting sub 90. Without it going ok enough I dont stand that chance and is exactly what happens too often.

But thats just for an 89 or 88. After that,...in order to go low 80 I now must also get similar efficiency from my greenside game and putting. Not going to score 80, 81,82 without that too. It (80-ish) requires consistent efficiency from all areas of play.
 
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Lol, no. This just goes back to many, if not the majority, dramatically under-estimating their real index. I think for many it’s not on purpose.


Because the putting average for 6-10 index’s is 33.7 and 11-15 is 34.8. So neither index range is 1 putting enough to compensate. Maybe once in a while when they are playing their best and better than their index.
Lol so many assumptions.

This thread is a good example of how many ways there are to make scores.
 
I apologize - I would have thought that a hole with a yardage in the 120-150 yard range would be a reasonable single-shot expectation, even for a 90 shooter. Would it be a fair comment that without water they are likely a penalty-free tee shot? Unlike, say a par 4 or 5 where you might slice driver OB?
For me, when I "cracked the code" and went from a 90s shooter to 80 or better the biggest gains I saw were from eliminating the penalties, and playing FIR and GIR. Sure, I'd still 3 putt every now and again, but if I could find the fairway, and be on the green in regulation I had a very high percentage of making par. The more often the GIR happened, the more opportunities that presented themselves for birdie, and every now and again I could convert one. One birdie offsets a double-bogey in my mind when you are looking at the final tally.

Ah... my par 3s aren't that short. in theory with a decent drive from those tees you'd be that far out on the par 4s too.

par 5s are by far best chance for a par
 
Because the putting average for 6-10 index’s is 33.7 and 11-15 is 34.8. So neither index range is 1 putting enough to compensate. Maybe once in a while when they are playing their best and better than their index.

That is an average among divergent player types. More informative would be the 80+ percentile numbers because a person breaking 90 hitting little or no greens involves the claim of an unusually good short game. Raw number of putts also tends to be inversely proportional to the number of greens hit. My index right now is 12.4 and I'm at best average in the short game. I average 1.7 putts on missed greens, so I'd have an average of 30 putts if I hit no greens. If I miss every green I still have five more shots to waste before I'm above 90, and more on a course with a par of 70 or 71.
 
Because the putting average for 6-10 index’s is 33.7 and 11-15 is 34.8. So neither index range is 1 putting enough to compensate. Maybe once in a while when they are playing their best and better than their index.
To not go back and grab all the quotes, etc. I'll summarize my typical game here:

Over the last 20 rounds:
GIR-49%, so I guess my GIR +1 is not as frequent as I thought, but it is still half.
Average # of putts - 33.6 - so there is almost 3 shots a round
On the GIR+1 average distance from the pin is <20 yards (looking at my shots and averaging)
And like I said, my chipping is pretty good for my cap.

Average score - 85.7
 
That is an average among divergent player types. More informative would be the 80+ percentile numbers because a person breaking 90 hitting little or no greens involves the claim of an unusually good short game. Raw number of putts also tends to be inversely proportional to the number of greens hit. My index right now is 12.4 and I'm at best average in the short game. I average 1.7 putts on missed greens, so I'd have an average of 30 putts if I hit no greens. If I miss every green I still have five more shots to waste before I'm above 90, and more on a course with a par of 70 or 71.
30 putts is a pretty good average
 
Haven't read the whole thread, but I'll just add that I don't like the idea of letting mass stats influence an individual game.

All my buddies who shoot 90s have different issues and should be working on different areas.
 
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