Do you have to 'clear the hips'?

[T_money28]

I see many many golf tutorials online talking about the importance of rotating and firing the hips at the start of a downswing. I believe this has become a very desirable attribute because of guys like Dustin Johnson who get crazily open on their downswing and follow through. They say that it increases speed, brings the club on an inside path and keeps the face square.

Is there any very good or pro golfers around that don't really care about a huge hip turn? I'm no expert but I think that so long as you transfer your weight correctly, extend your arms straight turn the torso and bring your shoulder under the throat you will make the room enough to naturally swing down on an inside path. Initiating the downswing by firing the hips is just another thing to think about and an unnatural movement. The hip rotation is just exchangeable for forearm rotation through the downswing and follow through and they are just two different ways of going about things.
View attachment PXL_20210803_174310594~2_1280x720.mp4

 

[Badger_Golfer]

Clearing the hips is key for me. If I dont, I tend to get stuck and everything goes right.

 

[That post]

Jon Rahm doesn't really seem to have a huge hip turn as much as some of the other guys.

 

[razaar]

The pelvis is the midpoint of the body and as such is the link between the legs and the spine. The pelvis can be used as a hinge between the spine and legs or it can fuse the legs and spine together. This process is "nutation" (fuse) and "counter-nutation" (hinge). During the golf swing the pelvis hinges during the backswing and then fuses during transition and forward swing to enable the potential forces stored during the backswing against the ground to be released at the bottom of the downswing.
It is not about clearing the hips but using the strong muscles of the pelvis to transfer ground and rotational forces through the spine and then to the two levers - the arms and golf shaft.

 

[Desmond]

Glad that's cleared up.

 

[blugold]

The pelvis is the midpoint of the body and as such is the link between the legs and the spine. The pelvis can be used as a hinge between the spine and legs or it can fuse the legs and spine together. This process is "nutation" (fuse) and "counter-nutation" (hinge). During the golf swing the pelvis hinges during the backswing and then fuses during transition and forward swing to enable the potential forces stored during the backswing against the ground to be released at the bottom of the downswing.
It is not about clearing the hips but using the strong muscles of the pelvis to transfer ground and rotational forces through the spine and then to the two levers - the arms and golf shaft.

"Clear the hips" is a feeling, not a mechanic.

Amateurs tend to swing with all upper body. "Clear the hips" allows for the counter-nutation.

 

[blugold]

I see many many golf tutorials online talking about the importance of rotating and firing the hips at the start of a downswing. I believe this has become a very desirable attribute because of guys like Dustin Johnson who get crazily open on their downswing and follow through. They say that it increases speed, brings the club on an inside path and keeps the face square.

Is there any very good or pro golfers around that don't really care about a huge hip turn? I'm no expert but I think that so long as you transfer your weight correctly, extend your arms straight turn the torso and bring your shoulder under the throat you will make the room enough to naturally swing down on an inside path. Initiating the downswing by firing the hips is just another thing to think about and an unnatural movement. The hip rotation is just exchangeable for forearm rotation through the downswing and follow through and they are just two different ways of going about things.
View attachment 9020315

Dustin Johnson has to get his hips really open because his club face is dead closed. If he didn't, he'd have timing issues (2010 PGA 18th hole).

Don't focus on what tour pros do. They don't have the best swings, they're just the best at repeating their unique swings.

 

[WILDTHING]

The pelvis is the midpoint of the body and as such is the link between the legs and the spine. The pelvis can be used as a hinge between the spine and legs or it can fuse the legs and spine together. This process is "nutation" (fuse) and "counter-nutation" (hinge). During the golf swing the pelvis hinges during the backswing and then fuses during transition and forward swing to enable the potential forces stored during the backswing against the ground to be released at the bottom of the downswing.
It is not about clearing the hips but using the strong muscles of the pelvis to transfer ground and rotational forces through the spine and then to the two levers - the arms and golf shaft.

According to this video below there is hardly any mobility regarding nutation and counter-nutation (the body tries to restrict this type of motion).

 

[WILDTHING]

You need a hip turn to get your body (ie. meaning upper torso too) out of the way to allow your arms access to perform a backswing.

You don't 'have' to rotate your hips first in the downswing as there are different golf techniques .

For example you could use the Leslie King technique which is a perfectly valid way to swing a golf club if you lack the ability to create pelvic/torso separation. If you've strong shoulder girdle muscles but a weak body pivot and not much flexibility , you might still be able to generate significant clubhead speed.

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf - Golf Today

Your swing looks like an arms only type swing and obviously works for you but I'm sure you could get a fuller backswing if you had a bit more depth in your pelvic rotation. Also don't you feel a bit of strain in your back when you turn your torso against your lower body (ie. x-factor)?

Note:
In one of my other threads , it says that 11% of all pga tour players do not move their pelvis first in the downswing .

 

[WILDTHING]

Jon Rahm doesn't really seem to have a huge hip turn as much as some of the other guys.

JR has a shorter backswing and actually moves his lead arm down first before he rotates his ribcage . Looks like he uses a lot of left shoulder girdle muscle power in the early downswing (or/and uses his right arm more energetically) to bring his lead arm in a more downwards motion as well as using his body pivot.

Here is John Rahms kinematic sequence graph and you can clearly see that his left arm is accelerating (ie. look at the steepness of the blue graph) more quickly than his ribcage. This means that his upper body pivot is not solely responsible for flinging his left arm around in the downswing and that he is probably using his shoulder girdle muscles to bring his arm down and around too.

 

[razaar]

According to this video below there is hardly any mobility regarding nutation and counter-nutation (the body tries to restrict this type of motion).

We are not talking about mobility but locking up the and unlocking. But you already know this having read Kelvin's articles on this subject. Then again those who can't externally rotate both hips during transition and internally rotate both hips at or past impact will have difficulty understanding nutation and counter-nutation.

 

[Sean]

Manual de la Torre advocated for swinging the club with your arms...everything else will follow from that, including hip rotation.

 

[WILDTHING]

We are not talking about mobility but locking up the and unlocking. But you already know this having read Kelvin's articles on this subject. Then again those who can't externally rotate both hips during transition and internally rotate both hips at or past impact will have difficulty understanding nutation and counter-nutation.

No sure how one can lock and unlock with a limited movement angle of 2 degrees as mentioned in that video. There are other anatomical reasons for limited external and internal rotation of the femur heads in the hip joint (I think I've mentioned it in another post somewhere).

 

[Nick20UK]

To me it just means turning the hips early enough on the downswing so that the shaft can shallow, and allow the body turn enough through to a square impact.

How much hip turn that needs is individual to each players swing path.

 

[WILDTHING]

Manual de la Torre advocated for swinging the club with your arms...everything else will follow from that, including hip rotation.

Yes , it seems Ernest Jones (use the hands) , Leslie King (lead arm swing) , Manuel de la Torre (arms) advocate that the body reacts and doesn't lead the swing . Maybe worth trying them out if your pivot led swing is impossible to master.

 

[T_money28]

You need a hip turn to get your body (ie. meaning upper torso too) out of the way to allow your arms access to perform a backswing.

You don't 'have' to rotate your hips first in the downswing as there are different golf techniques .

For example you could use the Leslie King technique which is a perfectly valid way to swing a golf club if you lack the ability to create pelvic/torso separation. If you've strong shoulder girdle muscles but a weak body pivot and not much flexibility , you might still be able to generate significant clubhead speed.

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf - Golf Today

Your swing looks like an arms only type swing and obviously works for you but I'm sure you could get a fuller backswing if you had a bit more depth in your pelvic rotation. Also don't you feel a bit of strain in your back when you turn your torso against your lower body (ie. x-factor)?

Note:
In one of my other threads , it says that 11% of all pga tour players do not move their pelvis first in the downswing .

There is a bit of straight but planting the right leg straight and

You need a hip turn to get your body (ie. meaning upper torso too) out of the way to allow your arms access to perform a backswing.

You don't 'have' to rotate your hips first in the downswing as there are different golf techniques .

For example you could use the Leslie King technique which is a perfectly valid way to swing a golf club if you lack the ability to create pelvic/torso separation. If you've strong shoulder girdle muscles but a weak body pivot and not much flexibility , you might still be able to generate significant clubhead speed.

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf - Golf Today

Your swing looks like an arms only type swing and obviously works for you but I'm sure you could get a fuller backswing if you had a bit more depth in your pelvic rotation. Also don't you feel a bit of strain in your back when you turn your torso against your lower body (ie. x-factor)?

Note:
In one of my other threads , it says that 11% of all pga tour players do not move their pelvis first in the downswing .

I find trying to rotate around a point causes me to sway and chunk or top it. Planting the right leg straight and turning against it allows me to feel the weight in my right side and stay centred. Keeping the right leg bent might allow the right hip to turn back more but there are a lot of straight right leg swings in the hall of fame. I see my swing looks different but I'm trying to figure out if it's legit or bad technique.

 

[Lane]

Manual de la Torre had it right - More than 40 % of the humans brain is dedicated to it’s extremities, AKA - hands and arms . The human body will always position itself to accommodate the the path it’s DOMINANT HANDS desire to travel . Their is ONLY one part of the human body that has the ability to direct the head/ face into the ball from the inside - on an inclined arc / circle around the body .
If you look closely - you will notice they are attached to the ends of your arms and they are the ONLY CONNECTION / ATTACHMENT to the implement we have chosen to perform the task !
If you truly believe that by rotating your hips / shoulders ( or whatever ) at the start of the DS —-your DOMINANT HANDS WILL AUTOMATICALLY DROP DOWN FROM INSIDE LIKE Sergio, Wolfe , Hogan, TW then you are on the path to a miserable future trying to learn this wonderful game.
i don’t know why we made this game more difficult than it already is ????

 

[razaar]

No sure how one can lock and unlock with a limited movement angle of 2 degrees as mentioned in that video. There are other anatomical reasons for limited external and internal rotation of the femur heads in the hip joint (I think I've mentioned it in another post somewhere).

By engaging the laterall rotators of the hips. They are a group of six deep muscles underneath the glutes. They link the sacrum, the hip joint and the head of the thigh bone with the glutes. The hip flexors (the iliopsoas group) in front of the hip assist in external rotation of the hip.

 

[Chef23]

Manual de la Torre advocated for swinging the club with your arms...everything else will follow from that, including hip rotation.

Jim McLean taught the same thing as does his student Mike Malaska. They teach the body turn is there to support the arm swing. I could never get the sequencing right though when I tried to do it.

 

[JW Smoove]

I'm an old guy, with a hip replacement. I can tell you that when I get tired or lazy - or both, and become all arms the ball flight, distance, and direction are ALL significantly affected - not to mention the actual strike of the ball becomes more inconsistent. So, I would say, yes the hips must be cleared - how much is likely to change for all of us.

I urge you to consider looking for youtube videos of lessons for older golfers, slightly wider stance, toes angled, back foot farther back (promote a draw), head turned toward the backswing direction, and relaase the wrists slightly earlyish - I think, to again promote a draw - need to aim slightly right to offset this - all supposedly helps older golfers gain distance, engage the hips and force them to become part of the swing. I will be working on this more at the range tomorrow - as what I thought I was doing, isn't what I have been doing - not surprising.

 

[Lane]

Daggone- how good could I have been in my younger years when i was playing football , basketball, baseball at a fairly high level if I had only known to concentrate on my hip movement , my glutes , my knees , while I rotated my shoulders over the other way while driving my legs down the target line all the while timing my release in 2/10 seconds?
WAIT - forget that ! That is impossible for a human to do ! Its brain can ONLY PERFORM “ ONE “( 1 ) task in 2/10 seconds during the DS and that one task must be preprogrammed or it will not happen. I assure you that you will not be aware of where your hands are in space during such a fleeting moment of time . How could you when it takes the human brain 1/10 seconds to send and receive messages . Therefore , your brain will ONLY know what you did after you did it !
It guess I should ignore the ONLY part of my body that is connected to the golf shaft and the ONLY part of it that can direct the head / face into the part of the ball I desire .
If I can ONLY have one thought in 2/10 seconds I had better do some serious thinking . Is it my hips, shoulders, glutes , elbows, knees , feet, tibia or fibia bones or which muscles group , exactly ?
The absurdity of it all !

 

[Lane]

According to this video below there is hardly any mobility regarding nutation and counter-nutation (the body tries to restrict this type of motion).

Wild thing - good thinking - the average human vertebrae will only twist / rotate 25-30 degrees . Most of the rotation ( not COILING ) comes from the interchange of arcs in the pelvic basin - AKA - hip turn which is approx. 45 degrees. So much for this “” COILING “”” nonsense. Muscles DON‘T coil.

 

[Bosco...]

I do more casting with my golf clubs than my fishing rods, don’t even want to think about hips.

 

[Lane]

According to this video below there is hardly any mobility regarding nutation and counter-nutation (the body tries to restrict this type of motion).

Wild thing - good thinking - the average human vertebrae will only twist / rotate 25-30 degrees . Most of the rotation ( not COILING ) comes from the interchange of arcs in the pelvic basin - AKA - hip turn which is approx. 45 degrees. So much for this “” COILING “”” nonsense. Muscles DON‘T coil.

I do more casting with my golf clubs than my fishing rods, don’t even want to think about hips.

I do more casting with my golf clubs than my fishing rods, don’t even want to think about hips.

Bosco- Intelligent , thoughtful example! And - why would you when they are genetically designed to move as instructed by their DOMINANT HANDS.

 

[razaar]

By engaging the laterall rotators of the hips. They are a group of six deep muscles underneath the glutes. They link the sacrum, the hip joint and the head of the thigh bone with the glutes. The hip flexors (the iliopsoas group) in front of the hip assist in external rotation of the hip.

This applies to those who have the target hip the door hinge of the backswing hip turn. The target hip has little forward movement with the trail hip moving back and behind. During transition the trail hip becomes the door hinge of the forward swing with the target hip moving back and away from the target. Once the target foot is planted both legs work to rotate the pelvis which is locked to the spine. All this takes less than 2/10ths of a second. Next sequence is the rotation of the pelvis forces both hips to internally rotate with the target hip slightly ahead. The hips tilt back with the pelvis unlocking from the spine and the weight moving across to the target foot.
Those golfers who have the trail hip the hinge of the backswing are rotating the target hip towards the ball. This player is now in a quandary with trying to get the hip out of the way for the hands and keep the right hip from interfering. My guess is they develop early hip extension to escape "backswing jail".
If this player takes lessons and the instructor doesn't pick up on the trail hip door hinge, then he is wasting his time and money.