Dr Kwon (World Renowned Golf Biomechanics Expert) vs Shawn Clement

[WILDTHING]

I can imagine the reasoning for some of those increases in clubhead speed by Dr Kwon pupils is explained by Dr Sasho MacKenzie when he suggested a faster backswing to Cordie Walker.



PS. I can't help thinking that I might pull a muscle overdoing this so I'm not going to go overboard with too much of an energetic backswing (not a flexible spring chicken anymore).

 

[blugold]

I can imagine the reasoning for some of those increases in clubhead speed by Dr Kwon pupils is explained by Dr Sasho MacKenzie when he suggested a faster backswing to Cordie Walker.



PS. I can't help thinking that I might pull a muscle overdoing this so I'm not going to go overboard with too much of an energetic backswing (not a flexible spring chicken anymore).

This is where teaching fundamentals, and NOT FOCUSING on the hands, is critical. Teaching a good takeaway and full shoulder turn backswing are critical so once those become engrained movement habits, we can speed it up.

Otherwise, telling somebody with a sh***y backswing to just do it faster isn't going to be successful.

 

[Luchnia]

I can imagine the reasoning for some of those increases in clubhead speed by Dr Kwon pupils is explained by Dr Sasho MacKenzie when he suggested a faster backswing to Cordie Walker.



PS. I can't help thinking that I might pull a muscle overdoing this so I'm not going to go overboard with too much of an energetic backswing (not a flexible spring chicken anymore).

In the Kwon videos I noticed that after each student went through the drills that their back swing was much higher without what appeared any more effort at all. This tends to promote a much more brisk and higher back swing which increases club head speed and once the velocity is directed "let it go" then things are synced well.

I am really enjoying working on this during my winter/off season stuff and I get to try it out on the sim here at home as well. The thing I have to be really careful about is making sure I keep my hands/arms from becoming the all controlling factors and not allowing the body to work as it needs to.

Kwon posted a recent video and it is almost two hours (1:46) with a golfer that simply could not get the step drill. The guy really struggled big time and was simply all hands/arms swing and had little to no control. You could tell Kwon's excitement when the golfer started to get it and you could see the improvement. It seemed that Kwon was more excited than the golfer and he seems genuinely caring about what his students receive from his instruction.

These videos are great teaching aids and should help most golfers with a good overall golf swing that is not so hard on certain parts of the body, but more natural and utilizes a person's ability. Within two hours this guy was getting it and had solid body movement. Whether he retains it or not that is another question.

I am hoping that we will see some on course videos from some of these golfers after they leave Kwon's sessions. We know it won't be perfect, but would be nice to see how they use it on course and seeing ball flight and so on. It has already helped me be more consistent and I have not put all that much into it. I feel more centered and more natural motion now.

 

[GoldenBuff]

I watched a couple of these videos amd enjoyed them. One of my big takeaways is to work on how and when I use the ground to generate speed. I look forward to trying some of his ideas. I swing driver at 103-105. I’d like to get that up to around 110. One of the local pga guys who I call coach — he kind of grimaces when I call him that — tells me that at my age retaining speed will be more important than gaining speed. I still think I have more in the tank.

 

[Luchnia]

I watched a couple of these videos amd enjoyed them. One of my big takeaways is to work on how and when I use the ground to generate speed. I look forward to trying some of his ideas. I swing driver at 103-105. I’d like to get that up to around 110. One of the local pga guys who I call coach — he kind of grimaces when I call him that — tells me that at my age retaining speed will be more important than gaining speed. I still think I have more in the tank.

I gained club head speed during 2021 at 67 years old. Many said I couldn't, but just need to maintain. I found that was not the case because I did it. I went from average of 96 with the driver to now 100 average.

I was noticing on the sim yesterday that I was averaging about 98-100 with my 4 wood and my driver was over 100. I have up and down days with SS. I think I can even get my SS higher with a little more practice, however that is not my goal right now. I am working on more control and overall consistency.

 

[Lane]

Making a faster BS has nothing , nada, zero to do with increasing DS speed . More BS turn and more ** stretching ** of the powerful left side lat and back muscles can, however !

 

[razaar]

Making a faster BS has nothing , nada, zero to do with increasing DS speed . More BS turn and more ** stretching ** of the powerful left side lat and back muscles can, however !

To be accurate it is the spinal/back muscles contracting on the right side that rotates the body counterclockwise The left side back muscles are relaxed (or should be) during the downswing for a righty. That is why it is important to stretch the right side during the backswing to fully extend the spine with the left back muscles rotating the body clockwise.

 

[blugold]

To be accurate it is the spinal/back muscles contracting on the right side that rotates the body counterclockwise The left side back muscles are relaxed (or should be) during the downswing for a righty. That is why it is important to stretch the right side during the backswing to fully extend the spine with the left back muscles rotating the body clockwise.

I am not sure a person can consciously decide which muscles are concentrically and eccentrically contracting in a backswing or downswing, or any activity really. Especially if the person is standing bent over and we are discussing the back. The musculature of the back is contracting, to some degree, in that position. We cannot turn them off or on. In fact, turning muscles on or off is not something we can do without a nerve block. I don't think the left side are relaxed, I think they have concentrically contracted.

Edit: to add, static stretching before an athletic activity should be avoided as it does not reduce injury risk and has shown to reduce the force of muscle contraction. Dynamic stretching is the cat's meow.

 

[annsguy]

Love the sound the club makes in that video with Sasha. Also the joy Cordie has in swinging it that much faster.

 

[razaar]

I am not sure a person can consciously decide which muscles are concentrically and eccentrically contracting in a backswing or downswing, or any activity really. Especially if the person is standing bent over and we are discussing the back. The musculature of the back is contracting, to some degree, in that position. We cannot turn them off or on. In fact, turning muscles on or off is not something we can do without a nerve block. I don't think the left side are relaxed, I think they have concentrically contracted.

Edit: to add, static stretching before an athletic activity should be avoided as it does not reduce injury risk and has shown to reduce the force of muscle contraction. Dynamic stretching is the cat's meow.

Of course they can, it is about knowing how the body is designed to move and awareness of body movement.

 

[blugold]

Of course they can, it is about knowing how the body is designed to move and awareness of body movement.

Yeah, this is where we are going to chase our tails a little bit.

We don't get to choose which muscles are activated in a movement, especially on done at speed. We can make sure a movement is done correctly, as a byproduct certain muscles will get activated. We can't make a good movement without those muscles, so focusing on the muscles, instead of the movement, is silly to me.

I'm not sold on the idea that the answer to a correct backswing, or any part of the swing, is activating {insert muscle here}. This is where I feel biomechanicists and biomechanic enthusiasts lose the forest through the trees.

 

[razaar]

Yeah, this is where we are going to chase our tails a little bit.

We don't get to choose which muscles are activated in a movement, especially on done at speed. We can make sure a movement is done correctly, as a byproduct certain muscles will get activated. We can't make a good movement without those muscles, so focusing on the muscles, instead of the movement, is silly to me.

I'm not sold on the idea that the answer to a correct backswing, or any part of the swing, is activating {insert muscle here}. This is where I feel biomechanicists and biomechanic enthusiasts lose the forest through the trees.

Focus and awareness are not the same. Awareness is a product of conscious repetition. It is important to a post swing routine where the player reviews the swing he made seconds before.

 

[Luchnia]

To be accurate it is the spinal/back muscles contracting on the right side that rotates the body counterclockwise The left side back muscles are relaxed (or should be) during the downswing for a righty. That is why it is important to stretch the right side during the backswing to fully extend the spine with the left back muscles rotating the body clockwise.

Someone needs to notify Kyle and Bryson and let them know that they are wasting their time with those faster back swings they have been developing. BTW Kyle recently broke 233 MPH ball speed. Must have been the slow BS he uses

"Two-time World Long Drive champion Kyle Berkshire has achieved a ball speed of 233.4 mph, breaking any current known record. "

 

[Golfever]

She has the same swing speed as I do but my swing looks nothing like hers. I see she is moving forward before she finishes her backswing
Something I don't always do.

 

[razaar]

Someone needs to notify Kyle and Bryson and let them know that they are wasting their time with those faster back swings they have been developing. BTW Kyle recently broke 233 MPH ball speed. Must have been the slow BS he uses

"Two-time World Long Drive champion Kyle Berkshire has achieved a ball speed of 233.4 mph, breaking any current known record. "

What does that mean?

 

[JonMA1]

She has the same swing speed as I do but my swing looks nothing like hers. I see she is moving forward before she finishes her backswing
Something I don't always do.

That's part of what Dr. Kwon is trying to get his students to do in a couple of the videos. I don't know much about what it takes to perform a good golf swing, but a lot of the folks here seem to advocate that as well and it's apparent in the videos of top players.

I decided to stop taking video a while back because there were just so many things noticeable wrong and it became overwhelming. But I'm pretty certain getting my lower body more involved remains a priority. When done properly, it can help initiate the weight shift to my left just before starting the downswing. Just as you posted, for me it's not something that has become automatic or natural... yet.

 

[annsguy]

I am not sure a person can consciously decide which muscles are concentrically and eccentrically contracting in a backswing or downswing, or any activity really. Especially if the person is standing bent over and we are discussing the back. The musculature of the back is contracting, to some degree, in that position. We cannot turn them off or on. In fact, turning muscles on or off is not something we can do without a nerve block. I don't think the left side are relaxed, I think they have concentrically contracted.

Edit: to add, static stretching before an athletic activity should be avoided as it does not reduce injury risk and has shown to reduce the force of muscle contraction. Dynamic stretching is the cat's meow.

Blue, that made way too much sense. People on here talking about controlling muscles, arms, hips like we are characters from a Marvel movie.

 

[Luchnia]

Blue, that made way too much sense. People on here talking about controlling muscles, arms, hips like we are characters from a Marvel movie.

If I even as much as thought about controlling a muscle, I would have no clue what I am doing. It is bad enough to keep my focus on the target and impact of the ball. I am seeing consistency results from doing the Kwon drills and content with that.

I respect those that have in depth knowledge, but we don't need to be rocket scientist with full knowledge of genetics, muscle groups, dominant hands garbage, etc., to see that Kwon simply looks at the swings then addresses what the golfer needs to do. We can see about 95% of golfers out there need these basic things to get them more stability, control, and tempo which produces better golf swings.

Kwon simply provides the drills that target areas of weakness to get that consistent natural swing flowing in rhythm. It completely makes sense and unless we have a physical limitation we all have that natural ability.

 

[WILDTHING]

Biomechanics is useful to understand what is going , not how you are supposed to recreate what is happening. Dr Kwon had a basic idea what the general 'GRF/Torque/Moments Arm' patterns of elite golfers looked like when he captured them on his $100k 3D system. He then discovered that the step drills being used by an LPGA golfer seemed to create these same patterns so this gave him the opportunity to provide a 'how' . What I find astonishing is that Shawn Clement seemed to have discovered this intuitively over 14 years ago and the only evidence he used was the analogies in perpetual motion, walking, throwing and hammering tasks. In terms of external focus ideas, which I regard as being even more important than the biomechanics, SC is (imho) superior to Dr Kwon.

PS. Maybe I've go this wrong about biomechanical experts not providing a 'how' . Dr Phil Cheetham and Dr Greg Rose did discover the kinematic sequence and suggest creating 'stretch-shorten' between body segments from the ground up. Also the same experts explained the physics behind how elite golfers create clubhead speed during the release phase of the downswing using wrist cock. Biomechanics can also be used to refute flawed golf instruction sold quite frequently to gullible golfers using science buzzwords. Also, in that video with Dr Sasho MacKenzie and Cordie Walker , didn't he suggest a faster backswing to increase clubhead speed at impact (that was a 'how')?

 

[blugold]

If I even as much as thought about controlling a muscle, I would have no clue what I am doing. It is bad enough to keep my focus on the target and impact of the ball. I am seeing consistency results from doing the Kwon drills and content with that.

I respect those that have in depth knowledge, but we don't need to be rocket scientist with full knowledge of genetics, muscle groups, dominant hands garbage, etc., to see that Kwon simply looks at the swings then addresses what the golfer needs to do. We can see about 95% of golfers out there need these basic things to get them more stability, control, and tempo which produces better golf swings.

Kwon simply provides the drills that target areas of weakness to get that consistent natural swing flowing in rhythm. It completely makes sense and unless we have a physical limitation we all have that natural ability.

I mean, it's awesome knowing that {muscle x} is doing something specific on the way back and {muscle y} is doing something specific the other way. I'm not sure how pertinent that information is though for teaching the proper positions and sequencing of a golf swing. No golf instructor will tell you to "fire your teres minor more" in the back swing, even though the teres minor is critical to the back swing. We can't consciously flex or relax every muscle in our body. Likewise, we can't perform certain movements WITHOUT certain muscles flexing or relaxing. It is, what it is.

Dr. Kwon seems to blend the understanding of "what is doing what" and "how does that fit.

I have a soft spot for movement instruction.

 

[WILDTHING]

Interesting video by Dr Kwon.

Just before 1st golfer finishes his backswing , his pelvis starts shift/rotating while he is flexing his knees a bit (unweighting phase) at the same time. This seems to create a maximum torque in early downswing than the 2nd golfer and also allows him to shift pressure more quickly onto a flexed lead leg , ready for it to 'extend/push up' and help retain positive torque in mid-downswing just before release.

So it seems that most of the positive torque generated ends at about club horizontal in the downswing.

 

[annsguy]

If I even as much as thought about controlling a muscle, I would have no clue what I am doing. It is bad enough to keep my focus on the target and impact of the ball. I am seeing consistency results from doing the Kwon drills and content with that.

I respect those that have in depth knowledge, but we don't need to be rocket scientist with full knowledge of genetics, muscle groups, dominant hands garbage, etc., to see that Kwon simply looks at the swings then addresses what the golfer needs to do. We can see about 95% of golfers out there need these basic things to get them more stability, control, and tempo which produces better golf swings.

Kwon simply provides the drills that target areas of weakness to get that consistent natural swing flowing in rhythm. It completely makes sense and unless we have a physical limitation we all have that natural ability.

I’m all about doing the drills and becoming more fluid and more relax with my swing.

 

[Lane]

Fortunately, we humans don’t have to think about how and what our 600 muscles are doing. We were given superior brains which allows us to do amazing things that other species can’t. We were structured to stand erect with extremities ( DOMINANT HANDS) and arms which allows us to perform amazing feats. Otherwise, we would need to eat our food on the ground or out of a doggie bowl.
The most important task of our hands is to bring food to our mouths so we could survive as a species . And - if that is not enough - nerves were included so the brain has a direct connection with and can send messages directly to it’s extremities almost instantaneously( emphasis on the - almost ) to perform many, many task . Most if those are embedded in our subconscious and require no conscious effort on our part. 600 muscles to think about and control . We can‘t focus on but one in 2/10 seconds!
If that is not enough - we don’t have to think about all those muscles . The brain sends messages to it’s extremities and all those dummies / puppets will obey as commanded without ever questioning .
Many profess that we can think about this and that while focusing on moving this part of the body over here while making sure this part is where it should be and making sure my feet are doing are - dreamers!
The human can ONLY sort out , focus on and perform ONE ( 1 ) task in 2/10 seconds. I would suggest you find out which is the most important.
Hint - all memory is stored in the brain. It runs the show, but what part of it’s body is appointed to carry out it’s commands ?

.

 

[Luchnia]

Kwon has provided proven evidence based facts. The basic definition of opinion is "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." The basic definition of a fact is "something that is known and proven to be true." So if it is not proven true it is not a fact, but simply an opinion. As the old saying goes, "opinions are like arm pits, everybody has them."

We see the word fact being used dogmatically when the word opinion should be used. We find the majority of opinions in some posts are not based on fact or knowledge by definition, but based on old out-dated information that has now been superseded by new information. In other words the supported evidence has been found fallible by other proven evidence.

If there is one thing this thread should teach us, it is the fact there is non-factual information that is constantly regurgitated. The nice thing is Kwon and Shawn give us something worthwhile to use to better our games. Maybe the thread should be Dr. Kwon and Shawn Clements bring something of value to the table that will help golfers

 

[annsguy]

Saw a IG post today where I guy had a med ball between his arms and he was doing what looked like the two step drill. Not sure how heavy the med ball was. I’m going to try it when I get to the Y. Too much ice here today.