Educate Me On Spin?

[Duffer Seamus]

I see spin talked about a lot here on THP. I know backspin is desirable when you're flopping balls onto the green. You usually want that ball to hit the green where you're aiming and put on the breaks. Or at least that's the way I work it. I know side spin on full swing hits can be good or bad, depending upon whether you want the ball to draw, fade, or neither.

It's the spin, backspin, I assume, on full-swing hits with drivers, woods, hybrids, and irons about which I'm unclear. How does that spin affect the ball's flight?

For context: What inspired this question was @Jman's recent post in the "B21 or Rad speed" thread:

My point is, and we have seen it here, some guys fit to the Max tried to switch and it was a terrible fit for them because they need the spin. And as you know, the two drivers spin profiles couldn’t be more different.

 

[mtbloco]

This should be a nice thread to follow. Thanks for starting it.

 

[Space Bandito]

This video is a bit long winded, but full of useful info in regards to spin

 

[Mmaynard11]

Educate me!!!

 

[Muchmore]

Super basic answer incoming. Too little spin, on something such as a driver or wood, and the ball knuckles and falls out of the air quickly. Spin, in simple terms, helps keep the ball in the air. Too much spin though and the ball starts ballooning and goes too high and allows very little runout which obviously isn't super ideal off the tee, soft conditions non withstanding. Also too much spin in certain conditions, such as too much wind, and the ball will climb without going anywhere. That's why you sometimes hear terms such as a "two club wind" or "flighting the ball", lower launch and keeping the spin down through the wind to keep the effects of it to a minimum.

I'm sure there are plenty more people on here that could explain it in more eloquent terms and more in depth but I did warn it would be a basic explanation Launch also is a major factor here but my explanation assumes pretty ideal launch to get the gist of spin

 

[tequila4kapp]

First things first, a ball only spins on one axis. We don’t get backspin and side spin, just one or the other (or something in between).

Second, everyone has a window of preferred spin for their swing (how they deliver the clubhead to the ball) and swing speed that optimizes distance without giving up forgiveness. Too much spin and you are likely to lose distance. Too little spin and you are going to see wounded ducks on mishits.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Super basic answer incoming .

Precisely what I was looking for

Too little spin, on something such as a driver or wood, and the ball knuckles and falls out of the air quickly.

Had that happen this summer. 'Course it had to happen just as my ball was about to clear a hazard. It didn't. My playing partners had never seen a ball dive quite that sharply before.

First things first, a ball only spins on one axis. We don’t get backspin and side spin, just one or the other (or something in between).

Of course.

Second, everyone has a window of preferred spin for their swing (how they deliver the clubhead to the ball) and swing speed that optimizes distance without giving up forgiveness. Too much spin and you are likely to lose distance. Too little spin and you are going to see wounded ducks on mishits.

*nod* I assume by "wounded ducks" you mean when the ball plunges out of the air, suddenly, well short of ones intended length, and hi the resident wildlife?

I'll check that video or a bit later, SB.

Thanks for the follow-ups, guys

 

[Muchmore]

Had that happen this summer. 'Course it had to happen just as my ball was about to clear a hazard. It didn't. My playing partners had never seen a ball dive quite that sharply before.

You should look up videos of golf balls with no dimples if you want to see balls fall out of the air quickly lol

 

[Junkyard]

This video is a bit long winded, but full of useful info in regards to spin

Great video IMO.

Kind of makes me wonder now though, when I hit a draw shot am I actually manipulating the face properly or just getting lucky due to the gear effect?

 

[OITW]

I need more of it lol

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

Educate me!!!

Just watch the video Space Bandito posted. It is actually chock full of information! It's not really sidespin. It's just that you tilt the axis of the backsping that will cause the ball to curve. Or balloon! That is if you are hitting too "spinny" of a ball for your swing. I recently read an article where Dustin Johnson, does NOT play the spinniest ball that TM makes! Why Because he hits the ball so hard, and generates tons of spin. TM makes ball specifically suited to him, and ships them to him on a regular basis.

 

[Space Bandito]

Great video IMO.

Kind of makes me wonder now though, when I hit a draw shot am I actually manipulating the face properly or just getting lucky due to the gear effect?

That's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

 

[Space Bandito]

Just watch the video Space Bandito posted. It is actually chock full of information! It's not really sidespin. It's just that you tilt the axis of the backsping that will cause the ball to curve. Or balloon! That is if you are hitting too "spinny" of a ball for your swing. I recently read an article where Dustin Johnson, does NOT play the spinniest ball that TM makes! Why Because he hits the ball so hard, and generates tons of spin. TM makes ball specifically suited to him, and ships them to him on a regular basis.

I've heard similar stories about a lot of pros. Not all spin related, but the whole custom tuned ball seems to be fairly common.

 

[McLovin]

high speed players generally spin the ball a fair bit.

where you hit the ball on the face has a lot of influence on spin.

spin often equals stability. a ball will curve less with spin to stabilize the flight. i think it’s why low spin drivers are often unforgiving.

 

[-CRW-]

Some very basic premises, but not guarantees:

Slow club speed needs more spin.
High club speed needs less spin.

There is no side spin, only spin axis tilt.

The clubs play a big roll, but so do shafts and your golf ball.

Get fit (clubs/shafts/ball).

 

[wadesworld]

A lot of amateurs think super-low spin is what you want with the driver, so they play a low-spin ball and a low-spin model driver. However, I've heard it said by Callaway's fitters that most amateurs likely need more spin, not less. With too little spin, the ball can't climb. The people who need super low spin are people who hammer the ball and generate tons of spin already simply due to their high clubbed speed (like 115 or higher).

 

[tequila4kapp]

Great video IMO.

Kind of makes me wonder now though, when I hit a draw shot am I actually manipulating the face properly or just getting lucky due to the gear effect?

If you are hitting a draw it’s probably the regular thing - relationship of swing path to club face at impact.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

This video is a bit long winded, but full of useful info in regards to spin

Thanks for that, @Space Bandito. I don't think it was particularly long-winded, but I did skip the PGA Pro numbers.

 

[Snickerdog]

 

[Solmors]

I'll do my best to explain the aerodynamics of the ball flight in more laymen's terms!

The dimples on the golf ball create turbulent airflow around it as opposed to laminar airflow, this reduces drag due to air resistance and make the vortex/wake behind the ball smaller.


When the ball spins it creates a high and low pressure zone on opposite sides of the ball perpendicular to the flight direction of the ball. If this is backspin this means the high pressure is on the bottom and low on the top, creating lift like an airplane wing.

The ball has what is called spin axis. An easy way to visualize this is by imagining a pole poking through the center of a ball, if you hold the pole perfectly horizontal that would be all backspin. And as you raise one side of the pole and lower the other the axis increases. What this does is change the location of the high and low pressure zones so instead of just creating lift it starts to turn the ball in the direction the high pressure area is tilting. This is how draws and fades are created (hooks and slices too unfortunately). The more the axis leans, the more the ball will turn in the air.

The final part is about how spin rate, as in RPM, effects it. The more RPM the ball has the stronger the high and low pressure zones will be, so 10,000 rpm backspin will create more lift and therefore go higher in the air than a 5,000 rpm ball (all other factors being equal).

Across all clubs the amount of sidespin created by non-zero face-to-path ball impact is the same, controlling for club head speed. This means that at the same swing speed a PW and a 5 iron will put the same rate of sidespin on a ball if you leave the face open a little bit, lets say 500 rpm. However the amount of backspin will be very different. If the PW has 10,000 rpm of backspin and the 5i has 5,000 rpm, the spin axis will be half as right leaning for the PW which will fade/slice much less than the 5i. This is why shorter irons are harder to shape and less likely to hook and slice on mishits.

Longer shafts also mean faster club head speeds, and keeping everything else equal the faster the club head the faster the spin will be. So both backspin and sidespins will go up when the swing speeds go up. But since the swing speed is going up at the same time as loft is going down, thus reducing backspin compared to shorter irons, the more likely it is to create a more angled spin axis and see more turn in the ball flight.

And lastly is low spin drivers and visiting Brenda in her garden after hooking/slicing it OB yet again... Not only are drivers the longest (and thus fastest club head) but they also have the least loft creating the least backspin of all clubs. This means that it is easier to create a more angled spin axis, intentionally or not. So if you leave the face open a little and create 500 rpm side spin with just 2,000 rpm backspin, have fun watching your ball sail into the trees right. Face-to-path ball impact is always important, but it is increasingly important on longer and lower lofted clubs, driver in particular.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I'll do my best to explain the aerodynamics of the ball flight in more laymen's terms!

I like it! Well done

So if you leave the face open a little and create 500 rpm side spin with just 2,000 rpm backspin, have fun watching your ball sail into the trees right.

Or have a bit of out-to-in in your swing. Yes: I know this one well. All too well

 

[rollin]

spin often equals stability. a ball will curve less with spin to stabilize the flight. i think it’s why low spin drivers are often unforgiving.

Spin also equals too much movement. if one struggles with too much one (or the other) side spin hence the slice or hook. For the hooker/slicer they generally want less spin. Thats what balls with softer cores promote and why they generally help keep players straighter. Hence distance balls of the past and now buit also balls like chromsoft, and new Titleist avx, among other premium bakls with soft/er cores. etc,etc.... Tame spin also tames dispersion (for those that need that kind of help) and so many amateur's need it. And even at the cost of 'some" yardage". But being straighter is actually longer than being crooked anyway and is also more productive (most the time) so the distance loss is negligible at best anyway. Thats how distance balls are longer. They generally are not technically longer but they help keep folks straighter and so indirectly they are longer.

I think there is a different optimal spin for each persons needs and swing.

 

[Muchmore]

And lastly is low spin drivers and visiting Brenda in her garden after hooking/slicing it OB yet again

Please tell me you're referencing Alex Etches here?!

 

[Solmors]

Please tell me you're referencing Alex Etches here?!

Sure am! Glad someone caught it.

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

I'll do my best to explain the aerodynamics of the ball flight in more laymen's terms!

The dimples on the golf ball create turbulent airflow around it as opposed to laminar airflow, this reduces drag due to air resistance and make the vortex/wake behind the ball smaller.
View attachment 8981232

When the ball spins it creates a high and low pressure zone on opposite sides of the ball perpendicular to the flight direction of the ball. If this is backspin this means the high pressure is on the bottom and low on the top, creating lift like an airplane wing.

The ball has what is called spin axis. An easy way to visualize this is by imagining a pole poking through the center of a ball, if you hold the pole perfectly horizontal that would be all backspin. And as you raise one side of the pole and lower the other the axis increases. What this does is change the location of the high and low pressure zones so instead of just creating lift it starts to turn the ball in the direction the high pressure area is tilting. This is how draws and fades are created (hooks and slices too unfortunately). The more the axis leans, the more the ball will turn in the air.

The final part is about how spin rate, as in RPM, effects it. The more RPM the ball has the stronger the high and low pressure zones will be, so 10,000 rpm backspin will create more lift and therefore go higher in the air than a 5,000 rpm ball (all other factors being equal).

Across all clubs the amount of sidespin created by non-zero face-to-path ball impact is the same, controlling for club head speed. This means that at the same swing speed a PW and a 5 iron will put the same rate of sidespin on a ball if you leave the face open a little bit, lets say 500 rpm. However the amount of backspin will be very different. If the PW has 10,000 rpm of backspin and the 5i has 5,000 rpm, the spin axis will be half as right leaning for the PW which will fade/slice much less than the 5i. This is why shorter irons are harder to shape and less likely to hook and slice on mishits.

Longer shafts also mean faster club head speeds, and keeping everything else equal the faster the club head the faster the spin will be. So both backspin and sidespins will go up when the swing speeds go up. But since the swing speed is going up at the same time as loft is going down, thus reducing backspin compared to shorter irons, the more likely it is to create a more angled spin axis and see more turn in the ball flight.

And lastly is low spin drivers and visiting Brenda in her garden after hooking/slicing it OB yet again... Not only are drivers the longest (and thus fastest club head) but they also have the least loft creating the least backspin of all clubs. This means that it is easier to create a more angled spin axis, intentionally or not. So if you leave the face open a little and create 500 rpm side spin with just 2,000 rpm backspin, have fun watching your ball sail into the trees right. Face-to-path ball impact is always important, but it is increasingly important on longer and lower lofted clubs, driver in particular.

Great explanation! I see so many guys with 46.5" Driver with 9.5* lofts parking it in the woods like crazy! And they can't get the ball very far up in the air. What they should be swinging is more like a 45.5" Driver with 12 or 12.5* of loft. Easier to control the length of the club and less tilt to the spin axis.