Faster Backswing = More Club Head Speed?

[GolfLivesMatter]

Jon Rahm has a fast backswing and like Bryson he keeps the club in front of his body and doesn't let his arms out pace his body rotation. Recreation golfers generally use their arm swing to assist or even power their body coil where elite golfers use their wrists to fling the club head up with the arms following to the top. The arm action is separate to the body coil.
It is important to sequencing between backswing and downswing, that slack is kept out of the swing. If there is slack the body will be cut out and the forward swing will be driven by the arms.
If the arms outpace the body coil during the backswing the player loses control of the club with the right elbow acting as an anchor.
It is difficult enough controlling all these elements with a moderately paced backswing let alone a fast one.

You're right, keeping everything connected is probably the most difficult issue for lots of folks. I watched some guys who were working with the Tour Striker Ball on the range yesterday and they had a very hard time keeping the ball between their forearms. It looks easy but it's not so simple because a LOT of the guys didn't realize how much their arms were out-pacing their shoulder turn on the back swing, then how much their shoulders out paced their arms on the down swing which caused right hand flipping to catch-up. And these were easy, half swings. Imagine the disconnect on full swings? I tried the ball and found I was slightly out-pacing the butt of the club on the downswing which I'm pretty sure results in the dreaded thin or sometimes bladed short game wedges. [EDIT]. I forgot to add that some of the guys actually started topping the ball because they were so used to flipping the right hand to save the shot.

I added a really great TaylorMade video of Tiger, Rory, and Jason D on the course hitting short shots. Watch how they all keep the butt of the club in front of their chest. And for fun, watch how Tiger lifts a ball with his wedge then hits the ball backwards towards the other guys. Talk about club face control...LOL. Imagine spending all day with these guys watching and learning.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I think the question is really 2 part. (1) can a faster backswing increase speed and (2) can I make quality contact if I swing back faster. I can see a physics based argument for #1 related to momentum. Practically I see my swing getting better and longer when I do exactly the opposite. Something about a relatively slow backswing like IM makes me get a full turn (instead of sway) and must help me let the club start to drop before I intentionally make a motion to the downswing.

my dentists of many years was club champ at his club for about 10 years. He told me once to observe the women on tour not the men. His point was many of the guys are magicians that are hard to emulate. this idea of swinging back faster seems for me to be trying to emulate a master magician.

Your dentist and I agree! The really good women players figure out a way to get every ounce of energy into the club face at impact. Long ago I played an unplanned round with a young Lexi Thompson when she was trying out for the LPGA tour at the Gary Player course in Rancho Mirage. Believe me....the whip action....sound of her swing was something to see and hear. I shot 84 and she shot 66 from the gold tees, which were probably around 6,600 yards.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I like those "perfect connection" drills. Good find, @GolfLivesMatter. That kind of thing, drills like that, drills that make sense from what I know, or believe I know, about the components of a good swing are one of my exceptions to my avoiding YouTube videos.

I really like the drill with the alignment stick under the trailing arm. I know my back-swing is often too exaggerated and I've had real trouble learning to complete my follow-through all along.

Re: The guys having difficulty keeping the ball between their arms: I think I was already staying half-way decently connected, because, while working with the ball did produce improvement, I had no problem keeping it in place through the swing.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I like those "perfect connection" drills. Good find, @GolfLivesMatter. That kind of thing, drills like that, drills that make sense from what I know, or believe I know, about the components of a good swing are one of my exceptions to my avoiding YouTube videos.

I really like the drill with the alignment stick under the trailing arm. I know my back-swing is often too exaggerated and I've had real trouble learning to complete my follow-through all along.

Re: The guys having difficulty keeping the ball between their arms: I think I was already staying half-way decently connected, because, while working with the ball did produce improvement, I had no problem keeping it in place through the swing.

While I'm not a big fan of a lot of golf videos there are many good ones too. I tend to gravitate to those that make sense for my swing, and / or those that more focus on the physics of the swing vs. getting into nuanced descriptions of movements that you and I would likely never feel or assess the same way. I also tend to watch videos that teach the fundamentals and avoid one's like "SWING THE ARMS FOR MAX DISTANCE!!!".

There's a LOT of competition for views so it's no wonder the same stuff is re-invented and/or re-packaged to sound "new".

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I like those "perfect connection" drills. Good find, @GolfLivesMatter. That kind of thing, drills like that, drills that make sense from what I know, or believe I know, about the components of a good swing are one of my exceptions to my avoiding YouTube videos.

I really like the drill with the alignment stick under the trailing arm. I know my back-swing is often too exaggerated and I've had real trouble learning to complete my follow-through all along.

Re: The guys having difficulty keeping the ball between their arms: I think I was already staying half-way decently connected, because, while working with the ball did produce improvement, I had no problem keeping it in place through the swing.

Hey @MaybeDuffer, if you watch the TM video notice how the guys don't really get into much of any mechanics to describe their techniques. Rory was saying he just wants to return the shaft to vertical upon impact, then said he wants to take as little sand as possible.

Now imagine the hour long video on YT to discuss every single component, move, etc. LOL.

 

[chenrio]

GolfLivesMatter: Those 2 videos you posted on this page have to be the best golf videos I've seen in a long time, and I watch lots of them. Thanks for posting!

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

GolfLivesMatter: Those 2 videos you posted on this page have to be the best golf videos I've seen in a long time, and I watch lots of them. Thanks for posting!

No problem! I like them because the ball training video is connected to the TM video because the guys were using nearly the exact same movement.

 

[razaar]

You're right, keeping everything connected is probably the most difficult issue for lots of folks. I watched some guys who were working with the Tour Striker Ball on the range yesterday and they had a very hard time keeping the ball between their forearms. It looks easy but it's not so simple because a LOT of the guys didn't realize how much their arms were out-pacing their shoulder turn on the back swing, then how much their shoulders out paced their arms on the down swing which caused right hand flipping to catch-up. And these were easy, half swings. Imagine the disconnect on full swings? I tried the ball and found I was slightly out-pacing the butt of the club on the downswing which I'm pretty sure results in the dreaded thin or sometimes bladed short game wedges. [EDIT]. I forgot to add that some of the guys actually started topping the ball because they were so used to flipping the right hand to save the shot.

I added a really great TaylorMade video of Tiger, Rory, and Jason D on the course hitting short shots. Watch how they all keep the butt of the club in front of their chest. And for fun, watch how Tiger lifts a ball with his wedge then hits the ball backwards towards the other guys. Talk about club face control...LOL. Imagine spending all day with these guys watching and learning.

This stuff was engraved in my brain playing with elite golfers every week. We didn't talk golf swing, it was all out there on display. I'm glad you guys got to see Cam in action and his demeanor on the course. He is one of these rare individuals that can switch on and then switch off between shots, and never gives up. His mind is his greatest asset.

 

[uitar99]

Hey @MaybeDuffer, if you watch the TM video notice how the guys don't really get into much of any mechanics to describe their techniques. Rory was saying he just wants to return the shaft to vertical upon impact, then said he wants to take as little sand as possible.

Now imagine the hour long video on YT to discuss every single component, move, etc. LOL.

I Like that.

When my wife and I started golfing 8-9 years ago, we lucked out and met a golf instructor that we both related to. His first question after getting the chin wagging out of the way was: how do you like to learn? My wife wanted visual and verbal instruction. She wants to hear what he wants her to do and see what she is doing on playback. I wanted to be able to feel what he wanted. He would physically move me, hips further , shoulders , whatever.

Unfortunately we lost our friend to reoccurrence of bowel cancer (RIP) but I'll always remember him asking us how we learn.

An hour long video on "every single component of a swing" isn't going to last 5 minutes. I can't relate to that. Tell me to turn my hips faster. Tell me to push off with my lead foot. That I understand.

The other feedback I like is where my ball ends up, on the course, on average, after I've been working on something. For me, where the ball ends up is the goal.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I Like that.

When my wife and I started golfing 8-9 years ago, we lucked out and met a golf instructor that we both related to. His first question after getting the chin wagging out of the way was: how do you like to learn? My wife wanted visual and verbal instruction. She wants to hear what he wants her to do and see what she is doing on playback. I wanted to be able to feel what he wanted. He would physically move me, hips further , shoulders , whatever.

Unfortunately we lost our friend to reoccurrence of bowel cancer (RIP) but I'll always remember him asking us how we learn.

An hour long video on "every single component of a swing" isn't going to last 5 minutes. I can't relate to that. Tell me to turn my hips faster. Tell me to push off with my lead foot. That I understand.

The other feedback I like is where my ball ends up, on the course, on average, after I've been working on something. For me, where the ball ends up is the goal.

I was lucky when I started to play golf because my friends were on the top high school golf team in the Pittsburgh / Tri-State area. I would hit with them on the range, play many rounds with them, and even caddy for them at events, all of which was a huge benefit. Their "fixes" were most often very simple. For example, I was taking the club back too flat, so one guy came by and said "let's go to that tree and I want you to stand with your back to the tree, about 18 inches away, take your backswing, and don't hit the tree". Problem solved because all I thought about was not hitting the tree. To this day I think "don't hit the tree", and/or will go over to a tree and practice on the course.

I have a feeling if I spent a day with the guys in the TaylorMade video I'd probably learn a LOT more with a LOT LESS instruction. Rory said he tries to take as little sand as possible out of the trap. I bet money he would stop by, draw those two perpendicular lines in the sand and say to hit the sand slightly in front of the line, add a quick comment about weight distribution for most sand shots, watch a few and make some tweaks, and walk away. Then it would be up to me to work out the details because there's no way Rory could know what's actually going on in my head, or what I'm feeling during the swing.

 

[pinseeker]

I like those "perfect connection" drills. Good find, @GolfLivesMatter. That kind of thing, drills like that, drills that make sense from what I know, or believe I know, about the components of a good swing are one of my exceptions to my avoiding YouTube videos.

I really like the drill with the alignment stick under the trailing arm. I know my back-swing is often too exaggerated and I've had real trouble learning to complete my follow-through all along.

Re: The guys having difficulty keeping the ball between their arms: I think I was already staying half-way decently connected, because, while working with the ball did produce improvement, I had no problem keeping it in place through the swing.

those are both good drills. My "not-quiet-as-smart" ball consists of a smaller rubber ball with a screw eye in the inflator valve, a small length of elastic cord with a knot on one end and a loop on the other. The knotted end is fed through the screw eye before tying a loop in the other which is looped around a collar button before buttoning the shirt. I don't like something hanging from neck requiring hat removal. I also use a plastic hangar that i stick my arms through (I am slender). I have the hook portion sticking out front, the horizontal part rubs across my chest giving me connection throughout the swing and also maintaining connection with the chest.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

When my wife and I started golfing 8-9 years ago, we lucked out and met a golf instructor that we both related to. His first question after getting the chin wagging out of the way was: how do you like to learn?

That is exceedingly important.

The instructor in our classes this last summer I suspect was pretty good, but, being the engineering/scientist/analytical type I am: I need to know the "why" as much, or more than, the "how." He wasn't very good at the "why" part and I wasn't very good at learning the "how" from demonstration. Thus it's been a somewhat frustrating journey, at times, as I've slowly discovered "oh, that's what he meant" and figured out the "why" on my own.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

That is exceedingly important.

The instructor in our classes this last summer I suspect was pretty good, but, being the engineering/scientist/analytical type I am: I need to know the "why" as much, or more than, the "how." He wasn't very good at the "why" part and I wasn't very good at learning the "how" from demonstration. Thus it's been a somewhat frustrating journey, at times, as I've slowly discovered "oh, that's what he meant" and figured out the "why" on my own.

I'm more like you....I like root cause / corrective action analysis. Instructors often omit one or more baseline fundamental(s) that are required, or upstream events to complete a certain movement. That's why "tips" that focus on certain moves during the swing often don't work out well, or can actually serve to destroy sound fundamentals. I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys at the range practicing 20 yard pitch shots while trying to stay connected and struggle to the point of frustration, trying to hit the shots like the guys in the TM video above. Chunks, thins, tops, bladed....then out of frustration they give up and grab their 7 iron and resume hitting full shots. It's like they don't want to face how much they "don't know".

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys at the range practicing 20 yard pitch shots while trying to stay connected and struggle to the point of frustration, ...

I was that guy.

Then, while I was practicing one day, and getting "ok," but highly variable results, my old instructor happened by. Stopped. Watched me for a bit. Then, when I went to retrieve my balls, wandered over, grabbed one of my wedges, eyeballed it, then proceeded to hit a perfect chip shot. Then he showed me all the things I'd been doing wrongly: Wrong weight distribution, failure to stay connected, flipping wrists, incorrect follow-through. I corrected these things and, lo and behold, chip-after-chip popped up and plopped down just as I intended. And my chipping game as been terrific ever since

My driver game has gone to pieces, though. Can't hit scheisse with it anymore. I'd go back to him for instruction, but he doesn't teach SPS. So I'm going to have to muddle through this one on my own, I guess.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I was that guy.

Then, while I was practicing one day, and getting "ok," but highly variable results, my old instructor happened by. Stopped. Watched me for a bit. Then, when I went to retrieve my balls, wandered over, grabbed one of my wedges, eyeballed it, then proceeded to hit a perfect chip shot. Then he showed me all the things I'd been doing wrongly: Wrong weight distribution, failure to stay connected, flipping wrists, incorrect follow-through. I corrected these things and, lo and behold, chip-after-chip popped up and plopped down just as I intended. And my chipping game as been terrific ever since

Exactly. My most hated shot is the 20 yard or so 7 iron pitch. My brain hates looking at the 7 iron, thinks it's "too long", will hit it "too far", and a host of other negatives. So just yesterday I pulled out my MP69 7 iron and forced myself to hit those shots. Disconnects, blades, off the toe, clank-sound hits, too far, too short, etc. So I just kept going anyway because that simply demonstrated a lack of connection and control. Towards the latter stages, I suddenly thought "is your grip too tense, forearms, etc?".

Then I relaxed my wrist and arms and hit a flush pitch out of nowhere. I don't know if that's the "cure" but nothing else worked, at least thus far. I'm going back at it again today, tomorrow and until I can hit >90% decently well. It's SO frustrating, but if I cannot reasonably control the club for a short half swing shot, can I really control it in the bunker, or with tight lie wedges? Probably not, and no point in avoiding the issue because it ain't going away. The old saying applies, "when you're going through hell, keep going!".

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Oh, I can do just about whatever I want with a 7i, incl. the short pitch shots. That is one part of my game that works well for me.

Re: Trying again. Yeah, I'm thinking about hitting the range again today. But, before I do that, I think I'm gonna haul my mat and wiffle balls out and try some drills in my back yard, first. See if I can figure out how I'm mis-keying so badly.

 

[WMac19]

Did you already have an adequate or long enough backswing turn before he advocated you placing your right foot perpendicular to the target line ? I understand the building of torque idea but if one truly lacks a sufficient backswing does he/she need to flare the back out some?
I naturally toe out and this assists my turn but I am willing to experiment. Look forward to seeing further explanation.

I can offer that I do not have an adequate backswing even with my back foot flared. My swing is still too long though due to my turn stopping and arms continuing, breaking down, etc.

To help limit this, I've started to point my back foot perpendicular to the target line. The tension caused in the backswing sends a clearer message to me for where its limit is. I'm still too long with this method but it's noticeably less so.

An unintentional benefit is just what has been intimated, increased distance with the same effort despite a less than optimal turn.

Now, I have to be very careful of this because I flared that back foot to take stress off of my troublesome back, and it worked. Now I need to find a happy spot between safety and tightening up my backswing.

 

[PapaJohick]

I played around with this the other day playing..... I’m typically a smoother swing. Good tempo back and thru.
I made it a little faster and it was a pleasant surprise actually. Still smooth but faster. going to play with it a little more over the next few rounds.

 

[braveheart]

I can offer that I do not have an adequate backswing even with my back foot flared. My swing is still too long though due to my turn stopping and arms continuing, breaking down, etc.

To help limit this, I've started to point my back foot perpendicular to the target line. The tension caused in the backswing sends a clearer message to me for where its limit is. I'm still too long with this method but it's noticeably less so.

An unintentional benefit is just what has been intimated, increased distance with the same effort despite a less than optimal turn.

Now, I have to be very careful of this because I flared that back foot to take stress off of my troublesome back, and it worked. Now I need to find a happy spot between safety and tightening up my backswing.

Going to try this this weekend. I don’t have a long backswing but I like the idea of more torque with less concern about trying to make a bigger turn. You and golf lives matter offer good feedback

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

The one thing I've found with the right foot position 90* to target line is I MUST turn with the club handle in front of my chest as far as possible. I can get lazy and bad shots start happening in an instant.

 

[pinseeker]

Going to try this this weekend. I don’t have a long backswing but I like the idea of more torque with less concern about trying to make a bigger turn. You and golf lives matter offer good feedback

"resist, relax, rotate"

 

[razaar]

Speed in the backswing makes no sense to me. Speed in the second half of the downswing is where I want speed. This part of the swing is where the arms start decreasing in speed and centrifugal force begins feeding into the clubhead. The only way to counter this is to focus on moving the forearms faster and holding off the release.
To get good at this game a player needs to learn the backswing and then focus his thoughts only on the forward swing. There really isn't time to focus on both. Focusing on the backswing expecting a great result is purely speculative (good luck with that).

 

[Steelfire]

I came across the video below about how a faster backswing increases overall club head speed. The concept is if the hands are moving faster going back then on the down swing the club head has more stored energy on the down swing. Alternately, taking the club to the top and effectively "stopping" or pausing, then starting the down swing takes too much time to increase speed, if I'm interpreting the crux of the instruction. This kinda seems like how Nicklaus would talk about transitioning his lower body into the downswing while the club was still traveling to the top.

I'm curious if anyone else has tried this and seen similar club head speed gains. It makes sense, but I personally have never thought of this aspect.

I think tempo of back swing is VERY individual. Take a look at some classic long hitters like Ernie Els and Fred Couples. Looks very slow. Then you have Olazabal who is very quick but does not hit the ball very far. If you can take a quick back swing and remain in full control, then it may help you to keep up the momentum, like DeChambeau. But the slightest you move out of position, you will loose distance.

 

[Phil75070]

I've only gone through the first page of posts so if this has been mentioned before......

I think @pinseeker mentioned that speed and tempo are co-joined twins and I could not agree more. There have been fast swingers (example Nick Price) and those who seem to have a lazy/slow swings (example Ernie Els). What both had in common was tempo, a 3:1 ratio between backswing and downswing. For details on the science of that check out "Tour Tempo" (https://www.tourtempo.com/). I used that to great success years ago and had a stretch of my best golf ever. When I retired and started playing all the time and almost never practicing, I got away from it. It worked for me when I was adding a practice routine to my game. These days I don't even hit balls before a round.

 

[Acesteve]

I can offer that I do not have an adequate backswing even with my back foot flared. My swing is still too long though due to my turn stopping and arms continuing, breaking down, etc.

To help limit this, I've started to point my back foot perpendicular to the target line. The tension caused in the backswing sends a clearer message to me for where its limit is. I'm still too long with this method but it's noticeably less so.

An unintentional benefit is just what has been intimated, increased distance with the same effort despite a less than optimal turn.

Now, I have to be very careful of this because I flared that back foot to take stress off of my troublesome back, and it worked. Now I need to find a happy spot between safety and tightening up my backswing.

This is what I've found as well. when my back foot is comfortable, I can turn until I reach China but in the process I bend the left arm, move back off the ball, and have arms become disconnected from torso. In past 6 months, I have focused on getting that backfoot at 90degree angle to target line, then I worked on keeping left arm straight and recently on feeling connected ( I likely can hit balls with towels under my arm pits without dropping them).

what this has done for me (1) much shorter backswing with pressure on inside of right (back) foot. (2) my lower body naturally makes first move but unfortunately I find that this puts more pressure on my left knee and hip because I'm getting full transfer to the left side. That I played for years without any pain tells me I have changed. Much better contact with the ball across the bag.