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Forgiveness vs Precision

SuperStroke
Little ball first. Big ball second.
 
JB said:
There seems to be an assumption that more forgiving clubs lack precision. Do you find it to be true? What do you think is the reason for it?
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Isn’t the forgiveness in place because of lack of precision? I don’t see them as being apposed to each other.

I have never believed that precision comes with playing “less forgiving” equipment. It comes from lots of hours perfecting your feel, touch, and swing.

added to that. What is precision? Precision and accuracy some times become synonymous but they are different.

accuracy is a measurement of hitting a target. Think bullseye.

precision is how close or tight a group of attempts is to that target. Think grouping.

so you can be precise, having a tight grouping, but not accurate, shots all away from bullseye.

So, in the case of golf. Precision is dispersion.

If a forgiving club improves your dispersion. Then it is more precise..

this is all different from shotmaking. Which gets into a different discussion. Can you be a “great shot maker” with forgiving clubs??
 
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JB said:
Let me ask you a couple of follow ups. Wouldn’t the less forgiving club have more variance since impact is not exact every shot?

And another follow up. If you took a thick cavity back wedge and a muscle back wedge and hit them both multiple times on clean lies you think the larger one would have larger variance in distances?
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My two cents.
1st follow-up:
Yes, the less forgiving club should show more variance due to the difference in impact.
2nd follow-up:
No, the larger more forgiving wedge should have less distance variance than the muscle back. Due to being designed to "forgive" variances in impact.
 
I think Ping Glide 3.0 wedges vs Vokey SM 7's would be a good comparison for forgiveness vs precision. I'm in the process of switching from Vokey SM7's to Glide 3.0's now with the 58/10 SS arriving tomorrow. Liking the 52/12 SS already.
 
When I hear about a clubs "forgiveness" it means to me that I don't have to hit that dime sized sweet spot to get close to the max distance with the club.
I can miss it by a little and still come very close to the same yardage as making that perfect contact.

Precision....I think that is more on the golfer. While I have never hit a true blade club, my understanding is that the golfer has to have the precision to hit that sweet spot to get the performance the blades are capable of.
 
I'm using forgiving as - getting the ball airborne and going mostly straight when it otherwise wouldn't have done so with a poor swing
I'm using precision as - the dispersion of shots left or right and long or short towards a distant target

Are forgiving clubs less precise? Probably... and I think this is due to the fact that the ball impacts all across the clubface, and while the newer tech in clubfaces helps offset that, a toe shot won't go as far as center face contact. But I'll take less precision as long as I don't have to traipse all over hell's green acre trying in vain to find my errant ball because I hit it off the toe of a blade and it went due West while I was aiming North.

If I can hit the ball off the toe of a forgiving club and it goes mostly straight, I'll call that a win even if it is a shorter shot than it would have been with center face contact

If I can hit the ball and my swing most likely would have topped the ball but the ball goes airborne anyway due to the forgiveness of the club, I'll call that a win even if it is a shorter shot than it would have been with center face contact

Those 2 reasons are why I don't plan on hitting musclebacks, players distance, blades, or whatever they're called now. My swing doesn't give me consistent center face contact and I feel I'd be playing Army golf again. I've played that type of golf before and I don't like it. Left rough, right rough, left adjacent fairway, right adjacent fairway... it's dangerous to myself and others:ROFLMAO:
 
Based on my stats and comfort I'd say the CF19 offers both forgiveness and precision. But if given the choice give me the forgiveness all day.
 
When I think of precision obviously first thought is blades. I believe there is a reason many pros still play them. They hit the center of the face often and know exactly how far they go. Often times people playing GI irons refer to a "jumper" which is really just hitting the center of the face for a change haha and they go farther than normal. I used to be one of those people, then I learned blades aren't for the weekend warrior or even most internet golfers like us.
 
I think in the past this is more relevant than it is today. Most of the newer series GI clubs I've hit I have no problem getting them to do what I want. But the GI irons from say 15+ years ago... no way. Just looking down at them and seeing the huge clunky heads and massive amount of offset was difficult for me.
 
In irons, for my game, yes. The more forgiving the club gets for me, the less consistent or precise my numbers and flights are compared to a smaller profile and more demanding iron. It’s not the case for all, but for me it’s been proven time and time again.
 
bombs said:
I have found that hollow body irons with thin fast faces lack precision in the form of distance dispersion. I would often hit two identical shots, one landing pin high and the other missing long.

I have far greater consistency of outcome with players irons. As long as it's not an awful swing I know exactly how far the shot will carry.

I guess if my ball striking was not good then forgiveness would improve the result of my worst swings. But I'd rather have 8/10 predictable shots and land a few short due to mishits, rather than play the lottery every time I hit a hollow bodied iron.
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Well said, distance control trumps distance when it comes to iron play.
 
Jman said:
In irons, for my game, yes. The more forgiving the club gets for me, the less consistent or precise my numbers and flights are compared to a smaller profile and more demanding iron. It’s not the case for all, but for me it’s been proven time and time again.
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That is exactly my experience as well. I am actually way more consistent with my distance control and ball strike with a smaller headed blade than I am with a GI or especially a SGI type club. It goes against the commonly accepted wisdom but that doesn't change the fact that it's true for me. Now, if I go 5 years without playing and start back after a long layoff I'll start off with GI clubs to get my swing back in order but once it is I switch back to blades for the consistency.
 
I'm in the same boat as others that precision relates to accuracy. Accuracy being side, to side, and front, to back minimal misses.

I have actually compared my 6i cavity back, with a Hogan 6i blade on several occasions. Both clubs fit my swing specs. My own consensus was the cavity back was more accurate, while the blade went farther by only a few yards. However, the blade also showed decent accuracy too.

I also know from my tinkering between the two clubs, that with the proper swing, I could also hit draws with the cavity back. Cavity backs can work the ball. I have to add that hitting draws with my cavity backs is not my normal ball flight.

I read a book about Hogan practicing with his caddy. Back then, the caddy would stand down range, and collect the balls Hogan hit, usually just catching the balls in a shack. The caddy didn't hardly move from his standing spot. Maybe a step or two.

I'd have to assume Hogan was using inferior clubs back then, than what's available today. That said, Hogan's accuracy was more a product of his swing, and not so much his clubs. An assumption on my part.

Another example is a story about Moe Norman hitting a ball across a narrow bridge to clear a water hazard. Again, older, inferior clubs, with accuracy mostly due to the golfer's swing.

My point is although cavity backs can help with accuracy, (precision) when used with a poor swing, more so than a blade can, it's still the golfer's swing that separates them from other golfers.

Another question I might ask those in the know is how many pga pros play cavity backs? Are they successful on their tour? Presumably these guys, as group, have the best swings in the world.
 
Are we taking irons or drivers ?
 
I find the ball usually goes exactly where you're aiming. Also, how often does one need to hit something other than a stock shot? I guess if you're trying to do a Bubba fade around a tree, but unless you've a HC around 3 you probably have no business attempting that one.
 
I do not find it to be true, no. I’ve never really seen a club have a true hotspot or a jumper that I’ve ever played, I just think you might lose some workability due to normally lower spin and design.
 
JB said:
There seems to be an assumption that more forgiving clubs lack precision. Do you find it to be true? What do you think is the reason for it?
Click to expand...
I've found that to be true for myself, since most forgiving clubs are also low spin. I don't have any spin to spare so once I get below a certain threshold I lose all distance control.
 
I would be willing to bet that less than 5% of golfers have the true ability to use the precision of player irons in the regular.
 
I think I probably need to eat a little crow on my earlier comments. I made it a point to hit a buddies game improvement type of irons last weekend and I think for me a less forgiving iron is still more precise and I can dial it in better but it's closer then I thought. Spin plays a big part in that though since I'm a pretty low spin player a game improvement club that has low spin can get me in trouble.
 
I think the tough thing now is the sets are beginning to blend so much together, I sometimes find it difficult in seeing where a set lies in the players through gi and sgi category anymore. I sometimes wonder if the labels of gi and sgi and players really have much meaning for many of these sets. Examples:

  • Mizuno 921 Forged - is this player's or more of a GI? It has weighting around the cup like you'd see in a GI, but has minimal offset which you see more of a players iron
  • TM 770 - Looks like a gi, but apparently is trying to set between a gi and players iron
  • Callaway Epic Forged - see TM 770 above
  • Mizuno 921 HM Pro
  • Callaway Apex Pro
At least for me, I could make arguments for these in either category.

It just goes to show the importance of a proper fitting when looking at these
 
WLG1952 said:
I'm in the same boat as others that precision relates to accuracy. Accuracy being side, to side, and front, to back minimal misses.

I have actually compared my 6i cavity back, with a Hogan 6i blade on several occasions. Both clubs fit my swing specs. My own consensus was the cavity back was more accurate, while the blade went farther by only a few yards. However, the blade also showed decent accuracy too.

I also know from my tinkering between the two clubs, that with the proper swing, I could also hit draws with the cavity back. Cavity backs can work the ball. I have to add that hitting draws with my cavity backs is not my normal ball flight.

I read a book about Hogan practicing with his caddy. Back then, the caddy would stand down range, and collect the balls Hogan hit, usually just catching the balls in a shack. The caddy didn't hardly move from his standing spot. Maybe a step or two.

I'd have to assume Hogan was using inferior clubs back then, than what's available today. That said, Hogan's accuracy was more a product of his swing, and not so much his clubs. An assumption on my part.

Another example is a story about Moe Norman hitting a ball across a narrow bridge to clear a water hazard. Again, older, inferior clubs, with accuracy mostly due to the golfer's swing.

My point is although cavity backs can help with accuracy, (precision) when used with a poor swing, more so than a blade can, it's still the golfer's swing that separates them from other golfers.

Another question I might ask those in the know is how many pga pros play cavity backs? Are they successful on their tour? Presumably these guys, as group, have the best swings in the world.
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Are we really talking about CB"s vs. blades though? The kind is seems like you're taking about I mean. The sweet spot size difference and leveling of results across the face is pretty minimal in a truly players CB compared to a blade. There's a vast difference between them and a GI cavity back designed to be noticeably more forgiving. Wouldn't you say?
 
To me forgiveness is ball speed and spin retention on off center hits.

I think you can be less precise and get a similar result, but at a certain point a mishit is a mishit and the ball won't travel right.

I think you can be equally precise with a large forgiving club, but got whatever reason golfers bring baggage with them.
 
The idea that you can’t work the ball with a GI iron just doesn’t make any sense to me. If I hit the ball in the center of the club with a slightly open face, I’m getting a fade no matter if it’s a blade or a SGI. If I miss the center of the club face, the ball isn’t going to go exactly where I want it. How far off line, or how short it might land will be different depending on what type of iron I’m using. I went from blades, to cavity backs, to GI irons in the last 3 months. ALL of them were very accurate when I hit them right. When I didn’t or don’t hit it perfect, I’m more likely to end up in a better position with my newest, GI irons than with either of the other two.
 
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