Generating Swing Speed

[Cmontgomery]

So @JonMA1 has a thread on iron swing effort that got me thinking about swing speed and how it’s generated.

I’m a fairly athletic guy that feels like I put a lot of effort into my swing speed and feel like I fall way short on speed given the effort it seems I apply. Overall, my coach is pretty happy with my form and how deep I get into my backswing however I do have an early release.

My question is, where is the club head speed primarily derived from? Is it in a delayed release that maximizes speed at impact with the “whipping” of the club head at the bottom of the swing?

 

[WILDTHING]

So @JonMA1 has a thread on iron swing effort that got me thinking about swing speed and how it’s generated.

I’m a fairly athletic guy that feels like I put a lot of effort into my swing speed and feel like I fall way short on speed given the effort it seems I apply. Overall, my coach is pretty happy with my form and how deep I get into my backswing however I do have an early release.

My question is, where is the club head speed primarily derived from? Is it in a delayed release that maximizes speed at impact with the “whipping” of the club head at the bottom of the swing?

This is a really complex question and not simple to answer (without you having an understanding of eccentric forces and torques). But I'll try and keep it as intuitive as I can from my own personal understanding

1. Clubhead speed is dictated by hand speed.
2. Clubhead speed is also dictated by hand path compared to the path of the clubs COM (Centre Of Mass) . The more sudden and greater the divergence of the paths , the faster the club will rotate (more wrist cock can help create a 'divergence' between the hand path and the club's COM).
3. Active wrist torque , unless timed at a perfect specific time before impact (and its virtually impossible to do because we are talking about applying this torque a certain 'x ' milliseconds before impact) will reduce your clubhead speed at impact . Either your clubhead will peak too early or too late in the downswing. In your case , casting will cause your clubhead to peak too soon . So you really need 'passive wrists' if you want to generate clubhead speed using what is called a 'natural release' (ie. without any active muscular wrist torques that uncock the wrists or where one tries to flex or extend the wrists).

An intuitive way of explaining 'Release' is in this video below but I'm happier understanding the physics behind it which can get quite complex and might not be of any help to you . Note that the club DOES NOT release due to something called 'Centrifugal Force' ! Even respected scientists get this wrong and its mentioned again 'incorrectly' in the video below but, to be fair , it might be a more pragmatic way of understanding release if your a non-physicist. But at least it explains point 2 above in a visual way.



If you really want to get into the physics of the swing here are 2 videos by Dr Sasho Mackenzie . I suggest you get a feel for the 1st video before moving to the 2nd one. It explains the forces involved but it can be difficult to comprehend.





If you can fully understand all the physics (and that includes the shaft bend during the golf swing), you will be able to look at golf instruction in a different light and spot 'junk science' that is sometimes used to market and sell golf instruction concepts.

Good luck with this because the journey to understanding the golf swing is filled with 'red herrings' (sometimes on purpose while innocently by others) everywhere.

 

[Cmontgomery]

Wow! Thank you for the detailed response and reference videos! I’m certainly going to spend some time watching these (and probably re-reading your response numerous times)!

It does sound like, and please correct me if I’m wrong, I shouldn’t intentionally try to “whip the club” at the bottom of the swing. More of the “loose” wrists concept and allow them to work naturally through the bottom of the swing?

 

[93civiccpe]

This is a really complex question and not simple to answer (without you having an understanding of eccentric forces and torques). But I'll try and keep it as intuitive as I can from my own personal understanding

1. Clubhead speed is dictated by hand speed.
2. Clubhead speed is also dictated by hand path compared to the path of the clubs COM (Centre Of Mass) . The more sudden and greater the divergence of the paths , the faster the club will rotate (more wrist cock can help create a 'divergence' between the hand path and the club's COM).
3. Active wrist torque , unless timed at a perfect specific time before impact (and its virtually impossible to do because we are talking about applying this torque a certain 'x ' milliseconds before impact) will reduce your clubhead speed at impact . Either your clubhead will peak too early or too late in the downswing. In your case , casting will cause your clubhead to peak too soon . So you really need 'passive wrists' if you want to generate clubhead speed using what is called a 'natural release' (ie. without any active muscular wrist torques that uncock the wrists or where one tries to flex or extend the wrists).

An intuitive way of explaining 'Release' is in this video below but I'm happier understanding the physics behind it which can get quite complex and might not be of any help to you . Note that the club DOES NOT release due to something called 'Centrifugal Force' ! Even respected scientists get this wrong and its mentioned again 'incorrectly' in the video below but, to be fair , it might be a more pragmatic way of understanding release if your a non-physicist. But at least it explains point 2 above in a visual way.



If you really want to get into the physics of the swing here are 2 videos by Dr Sasho Mackenzie . I suggest you get a feel for the 1st video before moving to the 2nd one. It explains the forces involved but it can be difficult to comprehend.





If you can fully understand all the physics (and that includes the shaft bend during the golf swing), you will be able to look at golf instruction in a different light and spot 'junk science' that is sometimes used to market and sell golf instruction concepts.

Good luck with this because the journey to understanding the golf swing is filled with 'red herrings' (sometimes on purpose while innocently by others) everywhere.

This is going to take me a while to wrap my head around.. That's a very detailed view of the forces involved. And I thought I was a headcase before
.

 

[WILDTHING]

Here's another myth that many golf instructors perpetuate - creating width in the downswing.




Look at the above AMG video where they use GEARS 3D to make assumptions about the golf swing and how pros can create clubhead speed . The presenters Shaun Webb and Mike Granato are using data trends they see in Pro golf swings and then make an assumption that this is how Pros create clubhead speed (without even checking whether it is correct from a physics perspective) . Then they make a decision to advise us to do the same?

They want the golfer to get that trail arm straightening in the downswing from top (P4 ) to left arm parallel (P5) to create width !!!! What do they mean by creating width and why should it increase clubhead speed (like they have suggested)? If I asked them that question via You-Tube comments section they would delete it , like they've done for every other comment I posted when raising questions (and not just my own questions but others) about the logic of their instruction.

But does creating width by extending your trail arm create clubhead speed? Actually its just the opposite.

Try it yourself by folding both your arms at the top of the backswing (with a fully cocked left wrist) and then using your body pivot to swing the 'folded arms and club unit' until your left upper arm was parallel to the ground. Then do the same with both arms extended as much as possible with a fully cocked left wrist.

For the 'same amount of full body pivot exertion' in both cases , did your hands move faster when the arms were folded or extended? I bet they moved faster when the arms were bent.

The physics is here on Dave Tutelmans website:





The left arm is extended across the chest. It typically exerts its force from the left shoulder all the way to the grip.[1] So the torque radius (the "lever arm") is the blue arrow.

The right arm is folded next to the torso. If the right side is exerting the force to move the hands, it is the chain of limbs including the right shoulder and [folded] right arm. So the right side lever arm is the red arrow.

Now a key point: The red arrow is shorter than the blue arrow.

Why does that matter? Because the shoulder torque is transmitted to the hands by forces. A torque is a force acting over a distance -- a lever arm. The size of the torque is the force times the distance.

Torque = Force * Distance

Or, applying simple algebra:

Force = Torque/Distance

Therefore, for a given torque, a shorter lever arm means a bigger force and vice versa.

DG

 

[WILDTHING]

Wow! Thank you for the detailed response and reference videos! I’m certainly going to spend some time watching these (and probably re-reading your response numerous times)!

It does sound like, and please correct me if I’m wrong, I shouldn’t intentionally try to “whip the club” at the bottom of the swing. More of the “loose” wrists concept and allow them to work naturally through the bottom of the swing?

Yes, if you want to use a swinging technique. There is a 'hitting' technique where golfers can actively try and create active wrist torque to create clubhead speed. There are also 'swing hitting' techniques where you can use a mix of both.

A swinging technique with passive wrists requires less timing than a 'hitting' or 'swing-hitting' technique.

If you are a relatively flexible golfer and can pivot quite easily , then a swinging technique is probably more appropriate for you and that means passive wrists and a natural release. Many golf instructors think this natural release is caused by something called the 'Centrifugal Force' but that is not factually correct although it 'feels' as if there is an outward force acting on the clubhead. Your hands are actually pulling on the golf shaft , and because of Newtons 3rd Law , the shaft tension is pulling against your hands and that's why you feel as if there is some weird invisible force pulling the clubhead outwards (that is a fictitious force they call the 'Centrifugal force).

I forgot to add something important regarding you attempting to 'whip the club' at the bottom of the swing.

If you look at ultra slow motion videos of the shaft of 'long' clubs , full swing approaching impact , they are actually in forward bend , not lagging bend . Physics says that if there is forward bend in the shaft, the your hands MUST be applying a negative torque (this is Newtons 3rd Law again , but this time using torques . For every torque there is an equal and opposite torque).

A negative torque in your hands caused by forward shaft bend means that the club is moving too fast for your hands to physically keep up (from an angular velocity perspective). Your hands are incapable of increasing a 'whipping through' type of torque as the clubhead approaches impact if there is forward shaft bend (and that occurs in virtually all full swings from 5 iron - Driver). In fact, your hands are 'just holding on' and actually limiting clubhead speed (weird but true) but you still need as much hand speed as possible to stop the clubshaft 'flipping' past your wrists too much before impact.

Again, all of the above regarding shaft bend and torques are on Dave Tutelmans website.

 

[Greg Kulbick]

So, are you saying this isn't focal plane distortion, and that the club is actually bending this way?

 

[-CRW-]

So, are you saying this isn't focal plane distortion, and that the club is actually bending this way?

View attachment 8928374

That is focal plane distortion. What WildThing is talking about is much smaller and can be picked up on Gears. Using a shaft that is too soft/stiff/heavy/light for the swing can decrease club head speed bc of it.

 

[-CRW-]

It’s obvious WildThing isn’t a fan of AMG, but here is one of their videos showing shaft deflection and droop measured in MM by Gears. It shows how those numbers affect the kick of the shaft in +/- mph.

 

[93civiccpe]

And I thought I was already too much of a headcase... This in information overload

 

[WILDTHING]

I like their 3D Gears system although its not perfect . Its their own interpretation of the data that I think is sometimes flawed and banning any comments that might dispute their advice won't help in the evolution of golf instruction (ie. using biomechanical studies)

I think the 'GEARS' smoothing' software needs improving because it currently invents a 'body part Avatar image' when there aren't enough data point per second or where they don't have enough sensors to measure a body part movement (ie. external rotation of the right humerus , forearm supination, wrist flexion/dorsiflexion). If you compare the Avatar images to Phantom Camera images , you notice some big differences and if the 'picture' is incomplete/inaccurate , one can make errors concerning 'cause and effect' .

Here is TruTemper research findings using a tool called 'ShaftLab' which measures shaft bend and clubhead droop.

Lessons from ShaftLab - 1

TrueTemper's ShaftLab is a great instrument for shaft research, not just custom fitting.

www.tutelman.com

------------------

What do we actually see when we plot the impact bend of a bunch of representative golfers? Here are the graphs for the nine pros whose Shaftlab profiles are in the 1999 package.



Every one of the golfers not only has leading bend at impact, the lead is more than can be explained by CG-pull

 

[McLovin]

sequencing. and use your legs. that's the best way to generate speed/power. if you get your sequencing right, using the ground to generate power, everything else is playing catch-up and storing energy. then it's about getting your timing down and releasing the angles at the right time.

there is nothing wrong with releasing the angles. what's the point of storing energy if you're never going to release it, or release it at the wrong time?

 

[PapaJohick]

Great explanation in here.

 

[WILDTHING]

And I thought I was already too much of a headcase... This in information overload

Here's a simple way to understand how 'Release' happens and increases clubhead speed.

Take a normal chair and lift it from the top . What do you see happening?

It rotates so that its COG is in line with the force lifting the chair (ie. probably in line with your arm). Although the golf swing release is a bit more complicated and involves COM (centre of mass) rather than COG (centre of Gravity) , its basically the same physics. If you laid that chair on its side on a floor of smooth ice and pulled on that chair at the same point , it would rotate and line its COM with the force direction (like the below). Note that you didn't have to twist the chair using your wrists , it rotated by a pull force that was not in line with its COM (in physics we call that an eccentric force). This is what we call a 'natural release ' in the golf swing.

 

[93civiccpe]

Here's a simple way to understand how 'Release' happens and increases clubhead speed.

Take a normal chair and lift it from the top . What do you see happening?

It rotates so that its COG is in line with the force lifting the chair (ie. probably in line with your arm). Although the golf swing release is a bit more complicated and involves COM (centre of mass) rather than COG (centre of Gravity) , its basically the same physics. If you laid that chair on its side on a floor of smooth ice and pulled on that chair at the same point , it would rotate and line its COM with the force direction (like the below). Note that you didn't have to twist the chair using your wrists , it rotated by a pull force that was not in line with its COM (in physics we call that an eccentric force). This is what we call a 'natural release ' in the golf swing.


View attachment 8928412

That does make sense but I need to get out of my head while swinging

 

[WILDTHING]

That does make sense but I need to get out of my head while swinging

You can't use any of this info (ie. forces and torques) to perfect your golf swing and one of the main reasons is 'feel is not real' .

It takes time for an action to be felt , but the downswing is so fast that a subconscious force you may have applied early in the downswing won't be 'felt' until later in the downswing. Weird but true!

Check this old Peter Alliss video which, imho , shows the futility of practicing feels in the downswing (ie. slow swing practice drills, positions felt , etc). Those same feels cannot be used when the swing is fast because they would be 'out of sync'.




Looking at this again from just a 'feel' standpoint , maybe the OP should actually feel a 'whipping' action through impact in a real life fast swing. The 'feel' might actually be representative of the correct biomechanics that was adopted earlier in the downswing, but felt later maybe at/through impact. Nuts!

 

[93civiccpe]

That makes a lot of sense. I had an instructor once who focused on getting to the correct post impact position and letting your body figure out what felt right. It was different but I did have success with that

 

[CBaker]

Ironically enough the people with the most speed seemingly think the least about it. There is a lot to natural physiology and speed in a swing, just like speed in any physical activity. I’m just not sure that even knowing how to generate more speed will matter much in application if you can’t already do it, unless you’re just losing a ton somewhere. There is also a lot to the timing and sequencing of your swing which seems to be hard to work on and mostly comes naturally to very fast swingers. I don’t believe I know many people who swing 115+ that really ever worked that much on getting there. Controlling your speed is different though and can definitely be worked on and honed.

 

[WILDTHING]

Ironically enough the people with the most speed seemingly think the least about it. There is a lot to natural physiology and speed in a swing, just like speed in any physical activity. I’m just not sure that even knowing how to generate more speed will matter much in application if you can’t already do it, unless you’re just losing a ton somewhere. There is also a lot to the timing and sequencing of your swing which seems to be hard to work on and mostly comes naturally to very fast swingers. I don’t believe I know many people who swing 115+ that really ever worked that much on getting there. Controlling your speed is different though and can definitely be worked on and honed.

Yes , I partly agree with you but what about hand path ? Is that something we can control to increase clubhead speed?

If you look at some of the longest drivers on tour they create a less curved hand path from the top of the backswing to just before release where they then 'turn the corner'. Not something I can do because the biomechanics involved to create that 'straighter ' hand path in the early downswing is too difficult for my old body (might be okay for flexible golfers).

The other important issue is are we able to square the club up with that increased clubhead speed ? Just might not be physically capable of doing both at the same time.

 

[CBaker]

Yes , I partly agree with you but what about hand path ? Is that something we can control to increase clubhead speed?

If you look at some of the longest drivers on tour they create a less curved hand path from the top of the backswing to just before release where they then 'turn the corner'. Not something I can do because the biomechanics involved to create that 'straighter ' hand path in the early downswing is too difficult for my old body (might be okay for flexible golfers).

The other important issue is are we able to square the club up with that increased clubhead speed ? Just might not be physically capable of doing both at the same time.

There are situations where one can increase their speed. Maybe they are just out of shape and need to get back in to regain speed, or they currently have an injury that is keeping them from it and if it gets fixed, it can be worked back. Maybe they are just simply wildly out of control but you can tell they have the ability and just need coaching to harness it correctly. But...I do feel speed is natural. It's the same with running speed...you either have it or you don't. The old adage "you can't teach speed" has a ton of merit.

Knowing every single thing you need to do correctly is great. however, if you just don't have it, you're not going to be able to gain much. You can basically just hope to maximize your current abilities.

I mean shoot...look at Luke Donald. Clearly knows what he is doing and is better than most people, even reaching #1 in the world....chased speed and ruined his swing. It's just a natural thing that he wanted to try to tap into and just doesn't have it.

 

[Luchnia]

Too many swing speed thoughts are a killer for me. Recently I tested a theory I had out with two of my fellow golfers. Both of them have decent swing speeds. One has a killer whip through but does not really develop his SS. I did some testing on my launch monitor while they were practicing and found that I consistently swing faster with less back swing than either of them.

I have practiced increasing velocity through impact instead of all the backswing stuff you see out there and it works for me and also makes the swing much easier and much more accurate because I am not coiling way back and putting my arms way up high in the backswing. There is what I call an acceleration zone in my swing and that is what I work on to gain velocity through the ball.

This is more than likely not for everyone, but it does work for me and has proven itself over and over again in my swing speed growth. I have gone from low to mid 70s on my irons to a stable 80 and my driver from low to mid 80s to mid 90s (with some in the high 90s) and all this with maintaining my standard backswing. It just feels so much better to me.

 

[93civiccpe]

I'm sticking with core exercises and the super speed system to see if it helps

 

[WILDTHING]

I was looking at that AMG video I posted earlier and now I know why the pro golfers seem to show trail arm extension in the early downswing.

Here is a video of how 3D Gears places markers on the body to measure positions/angles/movements.



Look at 1:23 showing markers being put on the AC joint and positioned on the wrist joint. Using these 2 markers one can use the varying distances between the AC and wrist joint to measure elbow bend angles.

Now look at this video below from 0:00 -0:12



The AC joint seems to slide over the humerus rounded head as the arm adducts. I can therefore imagine that as the arm elevates just above shoulder level while it bends at the elbow , the distance between the wrist and AC joint will be a false measurement of elbow flexion. It would be more accurate to measure elbow flexion using the varying distances between the centre of the humerus head and the wrist joint?

I have also been informed that "It is also possible that scapula retraction => protraction actions can cause variable degrees of AC joint separation that will also affect the position of the humeral head relative to the AC marker placed on top of the shoulder"

So basically 3D Gears seems to be providing questionable data measurements regarding elbow bend , and Shaun/Mike have used that data to instruct viewers that golfers need to straighten their rear arm in the early downswing to create clubhead speed. In fact they have not actually provided any scientifically valid reasoning to explain why clubhead speed is increased by doing that movement. Its not their fault but imho they don't have enough anatomical/scientific knowledge to question the integrity of Gears 3D data and are risking giving incorrect instruction to the many thousands of golfer who subscribe and believe what they are being told.

 

[McLovin]

the biomechanic and kinesthetic is all well and good. i'm sure it's helpful for knowledgeable instructors to develop watered down and digestible feels for their students. for me I don't find any value in filling my head with it, though.

 

[JonMA1]

This is a really good topic @Cmontgomery and some really interesting information from @WILDTHING, @-CRW- and others. It's a little tough for me to keep up, but most of it makes sense..

Anyway, I think an understanding of this could be useful - not in the way of swing thoughts, but how one approaches practice when developing a fundamentally sound swing. I'm trying to develop a swing I don't have to think about and one where I'm not trying to manipulate everything in a split second. I don't think those things hold up well beyond the occasional good result.

While working on this currently, I believe this is what's happening...

I'm trying to just come down from the top with passive wrists while trying with feel (ain't real) to remain on plane. There's no bowing of the wrists, it's just a simple back and through to finish. There's decent club head speed with little effort, however, the face remains very open resulting in a push slice. My natural - and very wrong - adjustment is to close the path out to in. Since the face is still very open to the path, I get a pull slice.

So unless I'm missing something (and I probably am), there's going to have to be some manipulation with my hands or body that will create a decent in to out swing path while closing the face relative to the path.

It takes time for an action to be felt , but the downswing is so fast that a subconscious force you may have applied early in the downswing won't be 'felt' until later in the downswing.

I'm not sure the above applies, but to fix the open face and/or out-to-in path, I started trying something that seems to help. By extending my trail arm after impact, this may cause something good to occur (or prevents something bad) before impact even though I don't feel it until the followthrough. The resulting ball flight is more likely a straight ball or even a pull draw which is preferable over a pull slice because it can be correct at address.

The downside to this fix - if it ends up being a fix - is that I'm now bringing back some manipulation into the swing. It's hard to keep the wrists passive while doing this. I don't know what a good swing is supposed to feel like so I'm in the dark. Maybe there is always going to be manipulation and over time it just becomes so natural that one doesn't feel it???