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Has this ever happened to anyone else?

Papatortuga

Papatortuga

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This happened to me a few weeks ago, but I was talking about it again today and was curious if anyone else has had this happen to them before. I was putting off the green for a pretty long putt. My friend was tending the flagstick because I was having a little trouble spotting the hole from where I was putting. Low and behold, it was a perfect putt that actually had a chance of going in. My friend tried pulling the flagstick out, but it was stuck. He tugged on the stick harder and the whole cup came out! My ball smacked against the side of the lifted cup and it stopped about an inch or two away. We counted the putt due to it starting to get dark and we were in a hurry to finish the round before it became pitch dark as well as because it was just a friendly round. I really felt as if I got cheated out of enjoying watching that tough, long putt sink to the bottom of the cup. Has this ever happened to anyone else? Just in case it ever happens again in the future, which I really hope it doesn't, I'm assuming the correct thing to do would be to push the cup back into the ground and have me hit my second putt? Thanks.
 
Yes, I saw it just once many years ago. Freak thing. And sadly, the ball must be played as it lies as there can be no assumption of a hole-out. Even when most obvious.

It's why, when tending a flag, I loosen the flag from its base so as to be reasonably sure it will rise without the cup, once removed.
 
If you’re off the green you don’t have to pull the flagstick, or at least that’s my understanding of the rule. Is that not correct?
 
Papatortuga said:
This happened to me a few weeks ago, but I was talking about it again today and was curious if anyone else has had this happen to them before. I was putting off the green for a pretty long putt. My friend was tending the flagstick because I was having a little trouble spotting the hole from where I was putting. Low and behold, it was a perfect putt that actually had a chance of going in. My friend tried pulling the flagstick out, but it was stuck. He tugged on the stick harder and the whole cup came out! My ball smacked against the side of the lifted cup and it stopped about an inch or two away. We counted the putt due to it starting to get dark and we were in a hurry to finish the round before it became pitch dark as well as because it was just a friendly round. I really felt as if I got cheated out of enjoying watching that tough, long putt sink to the bottom of the cup. Has this ever happened to anyone else? Just in case it ever happens again in the future, which I really hope it doesn't, I'm assuming the correct thing to do would be to push the cup back into the ground and have me hit my second putt? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Decision 17/8 says the hole liner is an outside agency. If the hole liner is stationary when the ball strikes it, the stoke counts and is played where it stopped. If the liner was moving when the ball strikes it, the stoke is cancelled and replayed.
dazeedmonds said:
If you’re off the green you don’t have to pull the flagstick, or at least that’s my understanding of the rule. Is that not correct?
Click to expand...
Yes and no. The ball is allowed to strike the flagstick when you play from off the green, but if the flagstick is being attended, the ball is not allowed to strike the flagstick no matter where the shot is being played from.
 
captaincaution said:
Decision 17/8 says the hole liner is an outside agency. If the hole liner is stationary when the ball strikes it, the stoke counts and is played where it stopped. If the liner was moving when the ball strikes it, the stoke is cancelled and replayed.Yes and no. The ball is allowed to strike the flagstick when you play from off the green, but if the flagstick is being attended, the ball is not allowed to strike the flagstick no matter where the shot is being played from.
Click to expand...

So in this situation, you’re better off leaving the pin alone and letting what happens happen.
 
dazeedmonds said:
If you’re off the green you don’t have to pull the flagstick, or at least that’s my understanding of the rule. Is that not correct?
Click to expand...

That’s correct but if one is trying to hole out the flagstick could prevent the ball from going in.
 
emart2173 said:
That’s correct but if one is trying to hole out the flagstick could prevent the ball from going in.
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Or it might knock the ball in.

I’ve got no scientific data one way or another, but I like the flagstick in when I’m putting from off the green, and I’m always worried something like what happened to OP is going to happen to me.
 
emart2173 said:
That’s correct but if one is trying to hole out the flagstick could prevent the ball from going in.
Click to expand...
dazeedmonds said:
So in this situation, you’re better off leaving the pin alone and letting what happens happen.
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David Pelz teaches to leave the flagstick in unless it is loose in the hole and leaning toward you. His attempts to study that have shown the flagstick helps more than it hurts.
 
captaincaution said:
David Pelz teaches to leave the flagstick in unless it is loose in the hole and leaning toward you. His attempts to study that have shown the flagstick helps more than it hurts.
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Yup. I’ve read his thoughts on it, and while his process wasn’t super scientific, I tend to agree with his results based on my own small sample size.
 
dazeedmonds said:
Yup. I’ve read his thoughts on it, and while his process wasn’t super scientific, I tend to agree with his results based on my own small sample size.
Click to expand...
I've seen some more "scientific" ways to determine what the effect is, and if i recall correctly, they supported those findings. Also something about if it is so windy the flag stick is moving to remove it.
 
dazeedmonds said:
Or it might knock the ball in.

I’ve got no scientific data one way or another, but I like the flagstick in when I’m putting from off the green, and I’m always worried something like what happened to OP is going to happen to me.
Click to expand...

It could. Golf is a game with a lot of variables and what can happen changes constantly.

captaincaution said:
David Pelz teaches to leave the flagstick in unless it is loose in the hole and leaning toward you. His attempts to study that have shown the flagstick helps more than it hurts.
Click to expand...

Great thing about golf is there are lots of ways to play it and teach it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Just as an aside to the question, starting on Jan. 1, 2019 you can just leave the flagstick in without penalty.
 
This happened to me once when I was a caddie. It was the big invitational tournament too and it was day 3. I was tending the flag and went to pull it out but it was stuck. It pulled the cup up a little bit but eventually gave way and came out but when it did, I accidentally hit the golf ball with the stick. I felt sick to my stomach but thankfully his partner made the putt so it didnt hurt them any, but man did i learn the importance of pulling the flag up and resting it on the side of the cup so it comes out every time
 
captaincaution said:
David Pelz teaches to leave the flagstick in unless it is loose in the hole and leaning toward you. His attempts to study that have shown the flagstick helps more than it hurts.
Click to expand...

Hole is bigger with the pin out.
 
I think I figured out why the reason for the Rule penalizing a player for playing from the putting surface and striking a flag stick within the hole.....................................
If there was no Rule, then player A putting from 20 feet might choose to take the flag stick out, but player B putting from 10 feet might want to leave the flag stick within the hole.
So, to avoid complications and possible slow play issues, the Rule was enacted.
 
Snickerdog said:
Hole is bigger with the pin out.
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Sure, but a ball that has the speed to fall in without the flag is unlikely to be kept out by the flag where a ball with so much speed it was never going to fall can get the energy taken out of it by the collision and stay down.

I've been trying to find the study I read. If I find it I'll post.
 
captaincaution said:
David Pelz teaches to leave the flagstick in unless it is loose in the hole and leaning toward you. His attempts to study that have shown the flagstick helps more than it hurts.
Click to expand...

Maybe in his world, but not in mine. That's just crazy talk!
 
To answer the OP's question, yes I have seen the whole cup come out when the flag was pulled. The greens were recently sanded & the sand essentially locked the tip of the flag into the cup. Plus the greens were really wet.

In the other topic that's taken over the thread, I think that having the pin in gives me a better visual reference to aim at. So I leave it in when I can.
 
Papatortuga said:
This happened to me a few weeks ago, but I was talking about it again today and was curious if anyone else has had this happen to them before. I was putting off the green for a pretty long putt. My friend was tending the flagstick because I was having a little trouble spotting the hole from where I was putting. Low and behold, it was a perfect putt that actually had a chance of going in. My friend tried pulling the flagstick out, but it was stuck. He tugged on the stick harder and the whole cup came out! My ball smacked against the side of the lifted cup and it stopped about an inch or two away. We counted the putt due to it starting to get dark and we were in a hurry to finish the round before it became pitch dark as well as because it was just a friendly round. I really felt as if I got cheated out of enjoying watching that tough, long putt sink to the bottom of the cup. Has this ever happened to anyone else? Just in case it ever happens again in the future, which I really hope it doesn't, I'm assuming the correct thing to do would be to push the cup back into the ground and have me hit my second putt? Thanks.
Click to expand...

That is funny man. I know what the ruling is, but like you I would've given it to a guy in a friendly round. I probably would've been rolling on the ground laughing at the guy and you if I was there. haha
 
captaincaution said:
Why do you think that is? Is it a sample size issue?
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The only value of a pin staying in would be the slow the ball down. I've seen way more ricochets than I have seen balls dropping in. In my opinion, if the ball is traveling at a reasonable speed, the pin is not necessary.
 
Canadan said:
The only value of a pin staying in would be the slow the ball down. I've seen way more ricochets than I have seen balls dropping in. In my opinion, if the ball is traveling at a reasonable speed, the pin is not necessary.
Click to expand...

I agree with you that a ball that is travelling at reasonable speed would go in anyway, so no pin is necessary. On those ricochets, would the ball have gone in had the pin or been there? If they had enough speed, I would say they were not going to drop anyway.

I hit the pin so rarely, I really don't think it matters.

It's like playing blackjack. I like to play optimally so I do the same thing over and over again. And if I lose a hand I'm ok with it if I made the right decision. If you like to leave the pin in, leave it in. If you don't, take it out. Just make a decision and stick to it all the time and you wont go mad second guessing.
 
captaincaution said:
I agree with you that a ball that is travelling at reasonable speed would go in anyway, so no pin is necessary. On those ricochets, would the ball have gone in had the pin or been there? If they had enough speed, I would say they were not going to drop anyway.

I hit the pin so rarely, I really don't think it matters.

It's like playing blackjack. I like to play optimally so I do the same thing over and over again. And if I lose a hand I'm ok with it if I made the right decision. If you like to leave the pin in, leave it in. If you don't, take it out. Just make a decision and stick to it all the time and you wont go mad second guessing.
Click to expand...

I've had this chat with my dad quite a bit over the last couple years. If I am off the green but close enough for a 'touch' shot, 10 times out of 10 I'll have the flag pulled because my goal is not to ram it in the hole, but rather, to die it in there. I doubt there's a wrong answer especially depending on skill level and expectation. I just don't have particularly good luck with the flag being in, so I lean towards the pull every time.
 
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