How much higher do you score at unforgiving courses? Are some of them ridiculous? Do you even realize what one is like?

[rollin]

Unforgiving .......meaning the course is simply not at all receptive to but only the smallest amount of errant play and in fact some courses may only tolerate play/shots that cant be anything worse than "less than good".

These types of courses are of course going to be much more a problem for mid and certainly higher cappers to play and most anyone who may struggle with accuracy on that given day or in general.

Some folks dont realize just how forgiving to poorer strikes the courses they play on really are vs others.

Things like dessert golf and mountain courses and perhaps some other scenarios.

I played a mountain course about a month ago and there was literally fairways sloped so badly you could barely take a cart in them. Many many blind shots. Can hit a green but roll off and down the hill leaving you with a 40 yard pitch (after hitting a freaking green). Forget about being errant at all.....tight and heavily thick woods lined holes with many dog legs and huge elevations. Even 'less than good shots" became concerning and ended up in poor shape.

One of my home courses (imitation links style) has tall thick fescue everywhere and I stay away whenever Im in not having a good run with my tee shots. I only go there when im hitting more consistently. Otherwise it can be a loooong day. I thought that was bad enough (forgiveness wise) vs my other other courses and it is bad for that reason vs the others, but when I played the recent mountain course I realize even my fake links course is (relatively speaking) nothing.

I was having a terrible day striking balls and of all days to have a poorer one this mountain course was not the day. It was miserable (golf wise) for me from start to finish. It was penalty after penalty after penalty, lost balls on most every hole. etc,etc, Lets just say i couldnt wait to get to my cousins house and pour a scotch as he grilled up a steak. .

Boy oh boy what an enormous difference the forgiveness level of courses can make on ones game if they struggle with ball striking. I always knew this was a big deal from course to course but never quite to the enormous degree i couldn't imagined before playing that course. In fact especially for mid/high to high cappers it almost becomes unplayable especially on a day when not on top your better play.

I dont even know what I ended up scoring. Literally by the turn I lost count.

 

[Carolina Dundee]

I think you can get lucky the first time you play a difficult course because there’s problems and hazards that you don’t even consider but it’s the second and then on times where you know what kind of damage you can get yourself into.

I recently shot a 79 at a fairly easy course and if it was the course I played before I’m pretty sure that round wouldn’t of broken 90 and I probably would’ve been lucky to keep it in double digits.

with courses like you’re describing I try to take away if I have a really good hole or two rather then my score.

 

[mtbloco]

I want to say it affects me a lot. The first time I could play a ball from an adjoining fairway I was like what sorcery is this??

most of the courses I play are miss the small rough area you’re OB on every hole. My home course only has one hole you can play from a different fairway. And only if you slice while clearing the water.

when I get on truly hard tracks that compounds it more.

I average7 penalties a round off the tee....so I’ll go with that as how much forgiving courses can help my score as a minimum.

 

[orchard53]

I see this on first time playing a course. If I'm going to play it again I take notes on where are the bail out areas for me, and how can I shoot a better score.
Sometimes that results in interesting club selections - I remember one par five playing 6 iron, 3 wood, 7 iron, sand wedge to get a decent shot to the green.

If there are too many conflicts with my ability, I just write it off as a learning experience. Painful if it's an expensive course.

 

[Smiter]

I played Muirfield Village once for a weekend.

Freaking beautiful course. Insanely hard. Lots of holes you have to be in the correct 1/3 of the FW to really have a chance. I played it as a +2 and can’t recall but I don’t think I broke 80.

Green complexes there are just crazy. Most greens are broken into 6ish smaller greens and you have to generally be on that level to have a shot. Missing on the wrong side can make it impossible to get within 40ft.

I’d play it again but I’d just about die if I broke 90 now. My last 3 nines are 41/35/36 all par 36 so I’m playing ok.

That’s the one course where I’d consider not going for a par 4 in two and instead hit 7i off the tee. Then going wedge wedge on some of the longer ones. Play for par/bogey.

 

[Smiter]

Unforgiving .......meaning the course is simply not at all receptive to but only the smallest amount of errant play and in fact some courses may only tolerate play/shots that cant be anything worse than "less than good".

These types of courses are of course going to be much more a problem for mid and certainly higher cappers to play and most anyone who may struggle with accuracy on that given day or in general.

Some folks dont realize just how forgiving to poorer strikes the courses they play on really are vs others.

Things like dessert golf and mountain courses and perhaps some other scenarios.

I played a mountain course about a month ago and there was literally fairways sloped so badly you could barely take a cart in them. Many many blind shots. Can hit a green but roll off and down the hill leaving you with a 40 yard pitch (after hitting a freaking green). Forget about being errant at all.....tight and heavily thick woods lined holes with many dog legs and huge elevations. Even 'less than good shots" became concerning and ended up in poor shape.

One of my home courses (imitation links style) has tall thick fescue everywhere and I stay away whenever Im in not having a good run with my tee shots. I only go there when im hitting more consistently. Otherwise it can be a loooong day. I thought that was bad enough (forgiveness wise) vs my other other courses and it is bad for that reason vs the others, but when I played the recent mountain course I realize even my fake links course is (relatively speaking) nothing.

I was having a terrible day striking balls and of all days to have a poorer one this mountain course was not the day. It was miserable (golf wise) for me from start to finish. It was penalty after penalty after penalty, lost balls on most every hole. etc,etc, Lets just say i couldnt wait to get to my cousins house and pour a scotch as he grilled up a steak. .

Boy oh boy what an enormous difference the forgiveness level of courses can make on ones game if they struggle with ball striking. I always knew this was a big deal from course to course but never quite to the enormous degree i couldn't imagined before playing that course. In fact especially for mid/high to high cappers it almost becomes unplayable especially on a day when not on top your better play.

I dont even know what I ended up scoring. Literally by the turn I lost count.

My home course, last nine. 1/7 FIR’s. 8/9 GIR’s. Par 36 score 36.

It’s not a very penal course as long as you miss the right “wrong” place. There’s OB and water, but decent contact will rarely leave you in trouble. The rough isn’t FW but it’s usually pretty easy to make good contact and control the spin coming out. You can actually have some great angles in by missing a little right or left on certain holes.

If I hit 1/7 FIR’s at Muirfield, I won’t break 50.

 

[ArmyGolf]

I think my A game scores similarly everywhere, but my B game on a standard course is 85, and on a really tough course could be as high as 100

 

[tbf_Andretti]

My lowest round ever is on Island at Innisbrook & I tend to play higher end courses better. I won't say "harder" but more premium courses are simply maintained better which I think helps my game tbh vs a muni

 

[WLG1952]

I'd say around 4-5 strokes on a tricked up course. I guess, as an example, I'd probably use Wolf Creek up in Mesquite, NV for that number. Love the course, but just not what I would call normal golf.

 

[tbf_Andretti]

I'd say around 4-5 strokes on a tricked up course. I guess, as an example, I'd probably use Wolf Creek up in Mesquite, NV for that number. Love the course, but just not what I would call normal golf.

dying to play that course

 

[WLG1952]

dying to play that course

It will be one you will remember if you ever do play it.

 

[DataDude]

My home course is pretty unforgiving. It's tight in a lot of places off the tee and the greens are all fairly small and raised up. You have to land and stop the ball quick on them to hold. Even on good days I don't have a ton of GIR's. It's just a difficult place to hit fairways and a really tough place to hit greens.

 

[Junkyard]

Interestingly the perception of difficulty is tied directly to which set of tee blocks a golfer chooses - we all know that ego plays into this decision. Simply looking at a yardage without considering the associated factors such as rating and slope can put a player in a position where their normal drive puts fairway bunkers into play on nearly every hole.
Sometimes the designer will incorporate other factors (fairway width, lack of rough, etc.) that make the course difficult regardless of length chosen.

The black course at Tiburon in Naples is probably the first course that comes to mind, as I have direct experience with it. My group really didn't want to ever play it again, because they struggled the first time they played it. One day we arrived to play and were informed we were on black - they put up a huge fuss. The first hole was challenging, but the second hole got way tighter. I suggested we move up a set of blocks and by the time we made the turn everyone was enjoying the course.

Another course that comes to mind is the Bear at Grand Traverse Resort; Jack really seemed to put bunkers in all of the right correct places to make the course difficult. Most of us don't change our strategy/approach and wind up scoring poorly. Those better players (@OldandStiff comes to mind) will select their shots accordingly, and not be affected as much as the average guy.

 

[rollin]

I think my A game scores similarly everywhere, but my B game on a standard course is 85, and on a really tough course could be as high as 100

Yea see thats sort of the thing "your A game" lol
If one is a pretty consistent ball striker (and most single digit players or those close enough to it are consistent enough) they can pretty much play most courses well enough (even if not real well) just by thir ability of keeping the ball in play and on the beaten path (so to speak).
The problem becomes when your struggling and the ball striking goes astray. Of course this can be the case more and more so as the caps go up. But even a better player on a bad (relatively speaking) day can be in for a small nightmare on such courses. But for us mid and high cap players certain courses can simply be a stay away or go with the idea of making some good shots here and there and thats all.

 

[rollin]

Interestingly the perception of difficulty is tied directly to which set of tee blocks a golfer chooses - we all know that ego plays into this decision. Simply looking at a yardage without considering the associated factors such as rating and slope can put a player in a position where their normal drive puts fairway bunkers into play on nearly every hole.
Sometimes the designer will incorporate other factors (fairway width, lack of rough, etc.) that make the course difficult regardless of length chosen.

The black course at Tiburon in Naples is probably the first course that comes to mind, as I have direct experience with it. My group really didn't want to ever play it again, because they struggled the first time they played it. One day we arrived to play and were informed we were on black - they put up a huge fuss. The first hole was challenging, but the second hole got way tighter. I suggested we move up a set of blocks and by the time we made the turn everyone was enjoying the course.

Another course that comes to mind is the Bear at Grand Traverse Resort; Jack really seemed to put bunkers in all of the right correct places to make the course difficult. Most of us don't change our strategy/approach and wind up scoring poorly. Those better players (@OldandStiff comes to mind) will select their shots accordingly, and not be affected as much as the average guy.

But what you imply is not at all always the case. Some courses are simply outright difficult layouts regardless. Sorry but tee choice isnt always an answer. Difficult is sometimes simply just difficult period.
I mean heavily sloped fairwys, tons of blind, tightly lined, tons of elevations, a lot of oob and or unrecoverable areas, even decnt shots can end up in poor scenarios. etc,etc,, just outright unforgiving towards most anything not hit well enough regardless of tees. I was actually on tees shorter than my normal distance. Difficult is not always about tees but layouts just are what they are.

Granted i did not know the course at all and some better club choices would have probably helped me some. But bounce off the rear of a green and your ball goes down into a 45 degree angle of forest. Or almost any sprayed ball (with any club) will find woods, gulley's, thick steep forest, etc...

Just the same as some courses (in fact many) will accept a good amount of (poor ball striking) errant play, while some only accept sonly a respectable amount, and yet some others will accept only very little of it. failing at ball striking just is what it is and so are these given courses that simply dont accept that kind of play well at all. One does porly enough they will be in for a long day on thier normal course. Play a much less forgiving one and even if you move up your poor ball striking is going to be much more problematic.

 

[jvbart]

I definitely struggle at some courses that don't fit my game. I can drive the ball a long way but am a bit wild off the tee. I do really well with open links style courses where I can bomb the ball and be in decent shape if I miss the fairway. I play Torrey Pines really well when a lot of my friends struggle there. The rough usually isn't too bad and if I miss the fairway I usually still have a good look at the green.

I really struggle with narrow courses where wild tee shots are OB, especially on the right side. My friends who are shorter and more accurate tear these courses up and I end up really struggling even when they are shorter courses. One we play regularly is on the narrow side and has a lot of uneven lies if you are on the sides of the fairway. I'm an average iron player at best and really struggle with tee shots being in the trees or on uneven lies that I struggle with. It seems like an easy course but I always play poorly there even when I'm playing well.

 

[rollin]

My home course is pretty unforgiving. It's tight in a lot of places off the tee and the greens are all fairly small and raised up. You have to land and stop the ball quick on them to hold. Even on good days I don't have a ton of GIR's. It's just a difficult place to hit fairways and a really tough place to hit greens.

IMo I feel the rating/slope evaluations are often way off. Not so much the rating for a scratch player but the slope especially on courses that are unforgiving to the more errant play.
The idea is (as you probably know) is that the slope pertains to how much more difficult the course is for the bogey player vs the scratch player. But imo it doesn't consider just how many and how often bogey players become too errant too often. The evaluating process does include some the forgiveness but imo doesn't include enough.

I play at courses with close rating/slope numbers yet one is far less forgiving to my errant play than the others. I mean even on a so/so day where Im not playing too bad but do have my share of poorer striking and yet we can be talking 7,8 strokes difference. On a bad day we are talking 10+
But not at all reflected via the R/S evaluation vs the other courses.

 

[GoldenBuff]

I have played some very challenging courses that were setup for their toughest test. I got my bottom handed to me every time. On the 2 of those I played this season I shot 7-8 strokes higher than my typically very consistent scores. The course pros I know and play with from 2 courses had higher than normal scores as well. I still enjoyed the rounds and learned some things about how I play.

 

[MattyD-MPLS]

Early May I played 2 hard courses while playing the worst I have in years. One was howling wind and one was just a hard course with crazy greens. I generally can get it around the course pretty well.

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

Years ago we played a course called Eaglesticks outside of Zanesville, OH. Lots of severe, greenside mounding. If you weren't very precise with your approach, God only knew where you might wind up. Plus it was a blistering hot Summer and they had allowed the course to get a little too dry. You could miss the green by 5 yards and wind up 30-40 yards away. Another one was Avalon Lakes here in my local area. It's a Pete Dye course, so you can imagine. I wouldn't call it tricked up, it's just damned difficult. If you're not a very good golfer it will beat you up, I don't care what set of tees you play.

 

[KEV]

Things can go sideways on a hurry for me sometimes on certain courses. I've struggled bad on a couple of Palmer designed courses. Tight holes where you have to lay up to a yardage off the tee are my kryptonite.

 

[tbf_Andretti]

Things can go sideways on a hurry for me sometimes on certain courses. I've struggled bad on a couple of Palmer designed courses. Tight holes where you have to lay up to a yardage off the tee are my kryptonite.

lol here in Florida we have a ton of em

 

[HarlettoScara]

I think my A game scores similarly everywhere, but my B game on a standard course is 85, and on a really tough course could be as high as 100

Yup, I'd echo this. If I'm 'on' that day then I'm hitting fairways, greens and making putts. The width of the fairway doesn't seem to matter and the confidence is there that no matter what club I hit the result is going to be favorable. If I'm not firing right however then there is a big difference if I'm playing a tough course. A lot of the links courses up here are brutally penal when it comes to the rough, you can be a foot off the fairway and lose your ball or even if you're 6' over the back of the green then it's another lost ball. Makes it interesting when the wind is inevitably blowing sideways from one direction, and the rain is coming in horizontally from another direction

 

[DataDude]

IMo I feel the rating/slope evaluations are often way off. Not so much the rating for a scratch player but the slope especially on courses that are unforgiving to the more errant play.
The idea is (as you probably know) is that the slope pertains to how much more difficult the course is for the bogey player vs the scratch player. But imo it doesn't consider just how many and how often bogey players become too errant too often. The evaluating process does include some the forgiveness but imo doesn't include enough.

I play at courses with close rating/slope numbers yet one is far less forgiving to my errant play than the others. I mean even on a so/so day where Im not playing too bad but do have my share of poorer striking and yet we can be talking 7,8 strokes difference. On a bad day we are talking 10+
But not at all reflected via the R/S evaluation vs the other courses.

Our course from the black tees which are 6498 and par 72 is rated 71.7/130.

 

[OITW]

Couple responses to the OP

Dessert Golf - is my favorite golf I don’t get to enjoy it often, but when I do it is a super sweet treat

I understand the disconnect between rating/slop I actually agree with you.

I think it’s tough to play a harder course if your A game doesn’t show up (@ArmyGolf stated it very well above)

If it’s a bad day it most likely would have been a bad day anywhere.

I think where I really get beat up though if my game tee to green is there is on the greens whether I just can’t read them or the speed is too fast. The other issue that defines a tough course is the misses on the green whether it’s the right spot in relation to the flag - i am on no way any kind of decent player that can put the ball in the right place on a smaller green