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How much higher do you score at unforgiving courses? Are some of them ridiculous? Do you even realize what one is like?

I sometimes think I play better on a tight unforgiving course with regards to my handicap against another player. Especially if their skill is length.

I feel like I don't get enough strokes when a course is long but has wide landing areas and tough greens. At that point I am shorter than most so if I hit it 230 and have a look at the green and my opponent hits it anything more than that they have an easier shot than me.

I think Augusta National typifies this type of difficulty. It's not hard to hit it safely off the tee there and it is extremely difficult to hit the green and leave a good putt. Obviously the guys that pound it 300+ have a huge advantage there and they almost always win the tourney.

It's really hard to not only predict how hard a course is, but also how much harder it is for a less skilled player than a highly skilled player. That is even more difficult when considering the variety of skills a low skilled player might have. Some courses certainly favor distance and others favor precision. Often a mid capper like myself is pretty good at 1 of those and not both.
 
OITW said:
Couple responses to the OP

Dessert Golf - is my favorite golf I don’t get to enjoy it often, but when I do it is a super sweet treat ;)

I understand the disconnect between rating/slop I actually agree with you.

I think it’s tough to play a harder course if your A game doesn’t show up (@ArmyGolf stated it very well above)

If it’s a bad day it most likely would have been a bad day anywhere.

I think where I really get beat up though if my game tee to green is there is on the greens whether I just can’t read them or the speed is too fast. The other issue that defines a tough course is the misses on the green whether it’s the right spot in relation to the flag - i am on no way any kind of decent player that can put the ball in the right place on a smaller green
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yes,....certainly a poor somewhat errant ball striking day is going to be chore and probably a bad day anywhere. I know that all too well lol.

But much to the point and as mentioned about not having your A game (especially as the caps go up) it makes a heck of a lot of difference when courses are a lot more accepting of the poorer ball spraying.

Chunking a 7iron 8 yrds and having to retake is the same anywhere. But spraying balls far off line is a whole different world at courses that simply dont allow for it vs ones where you get away with it much more often.

One course allows you so much more recovery opportunity (and sometimes some errant balls are not even penal at all) while the other is outright penal to 90% of them and much too costly to have any chance at all at still scoring (even if high) a more respectable round. The later is an outright disaster.
 
rollin said:
yes,....certainly a poor somewhat errant ball striking day is going to be chore and probably a bad day anywhere. I know that all too well lol.

But much to the point and as mentioned about not having your A game (especially as the caps go up) it makes a heck of a lot of difference when courses are a lot more accepting of the poorer ball spraying.

Chunking a 7iron 8 yrds and having to retake is the same anywhere. But spraying balls far off line is a whole different world at courses that simply dont allow for it vs ones where you get away with it much more often.

One course allows you so much more recovery opportunity (and sometimes some errant balls are not even penal at all) while the other is outright penal to 90% of them and much too costly to have any chance at all at still scoring (even if high) a more respectable round. The later is an outright disaster.
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I 💯 get what you’re saying

It’s subjective though - my hime course and normal rota are tight compared to any courses that I’ve traveled to and even some of the other courses that I’ve played in my area.

For me keeping the ball in play is something i always have to consider as it’s generally more penal if I don’t

for me a tricked up course is a course where I’m losing strokes even if I keep the ball in play
 
There is a course in my neighborhood called Bow Creek which is only 5917 yards from the tips with a slope rating of 120. It's a tight, but straight forward course with no gimmicks. All my low handicap friends call it a "pitch and putt" "Grandpa's course" They are members at some of the "higher end and much longer" courses in the area that measure any where's from 6500-7200 yards with slope ratings in the 130's-140's.

I have fun watching them shaking their heads after putting out on the 18th and wondering what the hell just happened to them over the past 4 1/2 hours.

It makes me wonder about slope ratings some times.:unsure:
 
Knot Right said:
There is a course in my neighborhood called Bow Creek which is only 5917 yards from the tips with a slope rating of 120. It's a tight, but straight forward course with no gimmicks. All my low handicap friends call it a "pitch and putt" "Grandpa's course" They are members at some of the "higher end and much longer" courses in the area that measure any where's from 6500-7200 yards with slope ratings in the 130's-140's.

I have fun watching them shaking their heads after putting out on the 18th and wondering what the hell just happened to them over the past 4 1/2 hours.

It makes me wonder about slope ratings some times.:unsure:
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To me it seems in the evaluations process they significantly consider the distance part (which they should) but they dont consider enough at all of just how accepting (or not) the course really is towards poorer ball spraying.
And imo.....poorer ball spraying is part of most bogey players games and is usually what it is that makes us what we are vs scratch players.

But i think the issue for slope is not so correct on both courses. i think the very forgiving courses are not sloped low enough and yet the very unforgiving ones not high enough. Again,...it seems distance is the majority of the evaluation and not enough of the forgiveness (or lack of) is used properly.

Imo those of us mid and high cappers who tend to spray a fair share of balls playing very forgiving courses are likely running a cap a bit on the vanity side while those of us similar players playing very unforgiving courses are likely running a cap higher than what we should have.
 
Ironically I normally play better at harder courses. The well manicured course does me wonders as I don’t do well out of squirrelly lies where grass may be dead, or the fairway is extremely long and wet.

However my average score this year is 85 and on one of the toughest courses we have here in Indiana I shot a 115 which is the highest score I’ve shot in my adult life. Completely forgot how to swing the club on the back after a horrible finish to the front 9.

Also in my lone tournament I play each year this year I shot a 109. Classic choke artist
 
I feel like ling courses tend to produce more consistent scoring averages, where tricked up shorter courses can yield more variation depending on penalties or not. I would imagine this contributes into any recurring assessment of rating/slope


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Conservatively I'd guess a really tough course is going to add 8-10 shots to my score. The primary issue I run into is penalties off the tee. My favorite local course up here is a resort course where if you miss the fairway you're generally in another fairway and have to punch through or hit over a line of trees to get back to the correct fairway. On a more difficult course where driver inaccuracy adds at least a stroke penalty, and sometimes stroke and distance, those penalty strokes add up quickly. I'm hopeful this changes next year as the preliminary results with the B21 make me think I will find the right fairway quite a bit more often than I did this year.
 
I played a local course this year multiple times where the fairways were rock hard and lots of common areas were just patches of grass and dirt. As a player that doesn't take much of a divot to begin with I struggled a lot, usually I would shoot around 10+ strokes worse than any other course with better conditions. I also played a course that's rough is very dense/thick and greens were hard/balls would not stay on. Made for a tough day of scoring or just getting on in 2/3, shot probably 10+ strokes worse that day as well.
For me it's not about the course being in perfect condition, but it can't be on the extreme ends of the spectrum of bad/poor conditions. If it is I usually end up shooting very poorly.
 
WLG1952 said:
I'd say around 4-5 strokes on a tricked up course. I guess, as an example, I'd probably use Wolf Creek up in Mesquite, NV for that number. Love the course, but just not what I would call normal golf.
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I think some of it has to do with familiarity. The first couple of times I played it, it chewed me up and spit me out. However, I played it a couple of weeks ago and shot better than my index, because I now know where to hit the ball on the course and familiarity lowers the intimidation aspect of it. I think this is true of any difficult course. Once you become familiar with it, you can shoot a relatively good score on it.

Relatively good score means relative to index. The example you used, Wolf Creek, has a 137 slope rating from the blue tees, so, of course, somebody is going to shoot an absolute score that is higher than what that person will shoot on a course with a 117 rating. However, relatively speaking, the scores can be similar.
 
My home course isn't tricked up but it is very hard. I am generally 3-4 strokes worse at home but it is reflected in the course rating and slope so it doesn't impact my handicap that much. Over the summer I was generally shooting 78 on a great round at home to 84 or 5 on an average round. I went to a friend's club which is a very nice track and shot 74 when I didn't feel like I played that great. My home course is long and the green complexes are difficult so if you miss a fairway it can be tough to hit a green and if you miss greens in the wrong place getting up and down is tough.

I find my game travels well but my home course is just hard.
 
Chef23 said:
My home course isn't tricked up but it is very hard. I am generally 3-4 strokes worse at home but it is reflected in the course rating and slope so it doesn't impact my handicap that much. Over the summer I was generally shooting 78 on a great round at home to 84 or 5 on an average round. I went to a friend's club which is a very nice track and shot 74 when I didn't feel like I played that great. My home course is long and the green complexes are difficult so if you miss a fairway it can be tough to hit a green and if you miss greens in the wrong place getting up and down is tough.

I find my game travels well but my home course is just hard.
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What is the slope rating on your course? Have you found that you score better on it having become familiar with it?
 
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I recently belonged to a club that was a Nicklaus renovation. It was really silly the way it was tricked up. Even good shots were punished! I do not intend to play another Nicklaus design ever again!
 
It depends on the course, but more how I’m hitting the ball. If I can’t find the face, bring on the mid to high 80’s. If I can find it and I’m chipping and putting well, 70’s
 
I played a few tight courses, where I was stubborn and refused to change my game. As a result, I kept losing balls off the tee, taking penalty strokes, and added 15 shots to my avg score... lesson learned!
 
Tenputt said:
What is the slope rating on your course? Have you found that you score better on it having become familiar with it?
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From the back tees it is CR of 75 and slope of 145. If I miss fairways and greens I struggle. I have gotten a bit better at not making bogeys. I have learned to take my medicine and not be overly aggressive out of the rough.
 
I play golf to have an enjoyable 4 hours with my friends. If I have the chance to make some pars, maybe a birdie or two without getting beat up in the process, I’m happy. I don’t like hilly courses where a good drive, in the center of the fairway and you get a side hill lie. Or courses that are so long, even from the senior tees, that I can’t reach half the holes in regulation. Courses where the pins are always on the side of a hill or are just a nightmare to putt make them tough. I have a lot of choices as to where to play. I can certainly appreciate difficult, challenging courses that make getting a par a good score on any hole on the course. But, a course can have an interesting, challenging, layout that will penalize bad shots but can give me a shot at a decent score Is where I choose to play.
 
rollin said:
But what you imply is not at all always the case. Some courses are simply outright difficult layouts regardless. Sorry but tee choice isnt always an answer. Difficult is sometimes simply just difficult period.
I mean heavily sloped fairwys, tons of blind, tightly lined, tons of elevations, a lot of oob and or unrecoverable areas, even decnt shots can end up in poor scenarios. etc,etc,, just outright unforgiving towards most anything not hit well enough regardless of tees. I was actually on tees shorter than my normal distance. Difficult is not always about tees but layouts just are what they are.

Granted i did not know the course at all and some better club choices would have probably helped me some. But bounce off the rear of a green and your ball goes down into a 45 degree angle of forest. Or almost any sprayed ball (with any club) will find woods, gulley's, thick steep forest, etc...

Just the same as some courses (in fact many) will accept a good amount of (poor ball striking) errant play, while some only accept sonly a respectable amount, and yet some others will accept only very little of it. failing at ball striking just is what it is and so are these given courses that simply dont accept that kind of play well at all. One does porly enough they will be in for a long day on thier normal course. Play a much less forgiving one and even if you move up your poor ball striking is going to be much more problematic.
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Okay I see your point about some of the design features - when I referred to the Black course one of the design elements is no secondary cut. If a ball is headed towards one side of the fairway or the other there is nothing to stop it from winding up in the desert - it's basically a stroke penalty every time you miss the fairway. Such courses are not fair in any way to the average golfer.

Luckily in my experience these courses have been few and far between, and when I have come across one it usually doesn't make it to my "would play again" list.
 
My club track is hard. I constantly score worse there then just about anywhere else I play. We have water on 13 of 18 holes. Elevated greens and a ton of bunkers. Fairways aren't super tight, but not as wide open as other difficult courses. I'm on average 5-8 strokes worse on a normal day at my club vs most other places around town.
 
One my county courses i mentioned earlier with the fescue everywhere plays like two totally different courses when the fescue gets cut down. They cut it down every fall. It takes till the summer to come back to full status.
problem is that in those fall and spring shoulder months the slope rating should technically change a lot because its literally like playing two completely different courses forgiveness wise.

When its not grown in one can be almost as errant as they want and can still find and play your ball.
On the contrary......When the fescue is grown in you can lose many balls and penal strokes all day long. Literally just one hop in by a few feet and you have about 50/50 chance to even find the ball and if you do find it you have like a 50/50 chance at best of hitting it out.
The difference (at the same exact course) when the fescue is full vs down is enormous stroke wise. For a mid and certainly higher capper we are talking double digits difference. And yet this is the same course.
But the slope stays the same while it should actually dramatically change according to the fescue months vs the non fescue months. Its truly a huge injustice.
 
A year or 2 ago we played rated at 71-142 at 6100 yards. I shot 103 or something. No forgiveness off the tee, if you ball rolled through the rough it was gone as well as tons of blind shots. I should've hit 5i off of almost every tee.
 
Once I remember to think of target golf and picking my landing zones my score settles down. Unfortunately, there may be to many bad holes to get it all back.
 
I had a fairly good ball-striking day at TPC San Antonio yesterday but probably shot in the upper 80's (I kept the $$ for our Wolf game but no one kept scores). Anyway, I was +5 on the par-3's alone with 3 shots that barely missed (one lake, and 2 short-side bunkers). The greens were horrendously slow as I think they are preparing for a tournament, and I had all sorts of trouble getting up-and-down from fairly easy places. Every birdie putt I had was short too.

At my home course, I would have easily shot 10-12 shots better with the same day of ball-striking.
 
KEV said:
Things can go sideways on a hurry for me sometimes on certain courses. I've struggled bad on a couple of Palmer designed courses. Tight holes where you have to lay up to a yardage off the tee are my kryptonite.
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Hmmm! This is surprising to me, since from everything I've read, Palmer hated laying up! Perhaps you didn't hit your tee ball as far as necessary, If this is the case, it makes me suspect that you were playing the wrong tees!

Afizzle2100 said:
Ironically I normally play better at harder courses. The well manicured course does me wonders as I don’t do well out of squirrelly lies where grass may be dead, or the fairway is extremely long and wet.

However my average score this year is 85 and on one of the toughest courses we have here in Indiana I shot a 115 which is the highest score I’ve shot in my adult life. Completely forgot how to swing the club on the back after a horrible finish to the front 9.

Also in my lone tournament I play each year this year I shot a 109. Classic choke artist
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This was my case back in the day when I could play! Just the look of the place could get my juices pumping. At 68, I'm not all that "juicy" anymore!

choppstixxx said:
I played a local course this year multiple times where the fairways were rock hard and lots of common areas were just patches of grass and dirt. As a player that doesn't take much of a divot to begin with I struggled a lot, usually I would shoot around 10+ strokes worse than any other course with better conditions. I also played a course that's rough is very dense/thick and greens were hard/balls would not stay on. Made for a tough day of scoring or just getting on in 2/3, shot probably 10+ strokes worse that day as well.
For me it's not about the course being in perfect condition, but it can't be on the extreme ends of the spectrum of bad/poor conditions. If it is I usually end up shooting very poorly.
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Sorry, but the way you describe the place makes it sound like a goat ranch, or the local muni! ? At least the first place. The place with heavier rough might have been a decent course. Who knows?

Tenputt said:
I think some of it has to do with familiarity. The first couple of times I played it, it chewed me up and spit me out. However, I played it a couple of weeks ago and shot better than my index, because I now know where to hit the ball on the course and familiarity lowers the intimidation aspect of it. I think this is true of any difficult course. Once you become familiar with it, you can shoot a relatively good score on it.

Relatively good score means relative to index. The example you used, Wolf Creek, has a 137 slope rating from the blue tees, so, of course, somebody is going to shoot an absolute score that is higher than what that person will shoot on a course with a 117 rating. However, relatively speaking, the scores can be similar.
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There is something to be said for local knowledge! I had the same thing happen to me a couple of time when I played a local premier course, for the first time in a local tournament. Man, it was tough! Extremely challenging courses, with no foreknowledge. Tough!
 
My home course is somewhat like this. Before they thinned out the trees if you were not in the right spot in the fairway you had no shot at the green. And if they roll the greens there are pin placements where you have to miss the green intentionally to avoid a 3 putt of worse:


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