How to Fix the Broken Handicap System: Dynamic Handicapping

[BigDill]

Except for those that have the yips, can't chip or pitch worth a darn, can't get out of a trap or are just lousy putters.

All are valid exceptions, but I would say all are also subject to improvement with work and practice (and one, the yips, is perhaps temporary). I completely understand that all shots count the same on the scorecard. But I am also aware that, in practice, people get really, really annoyed when I putt for net eagle or birdie, as if I have no purpose of being on the green in regulation in the first place. As in I should expected to be short off the tee, because that just what high cappers do.

 

[smgoldstein]

All are valid exceptions, but I would say all are also subject to improvement with work and practice

Agree 100%-which would then be reflected in their handicap.

people get really, really annoyed when I putt for net eagle or birdie, as if I have no purpose of being on the green in regulation in the first place

I see you are a mid-teen capper. Mid-teen cappers hit greens in regulation. They also have the potential to hit their drives OB. Quite often both in the same round. If people are annoyed that you, as a 17, hit a green in regulation then that's their B.S.

 

[blugold]

All are valid exceptions, but I would say all are also subject to improvement with work and practice (and one, the yips, is perhaps temporary). I completely understand that all shots count the same on the scorecard. But I am also aware that, in practice, people get really, really annoyed when I putt for net eagle or birdie, as if I have no purpose of being on the green in regulation in the first place. As in I should expected to be short off the tee, because that just what high cappers do.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything regarding a match between two players.

 

[echico]

Every stroke counts the same and is treated the same. The system said they needed 6 strokes to equal my 4, and the system was right. We halved that hole after I was forced to make a 4' putt for the halve.

Our league allows high handicap players because it's a handicapped league and every body in the league is honest so we don't call the high handicap golfers cheaters.

The reason our league adapted was because the lower handicap players wanted to play from 6400-6800 and only use 1 set of tees. They started out by using half handicap for net skins and we still got complaints about the amount of money that was being paid out to high cappers making net aces and net eagles. Some could argue that the league became more elitist by cutting out senior tees for old guys or preventing higher cap players from joining because the tees were pushed back but there are over 100 members with at least 60 players a week. It didn't hurt the numbers. It goes back to the argument that competition is better with closely matched players rather than big swings in handicap.

 

[blugold]

The reason our league adapted was because the lower handicap players wanted to play from 6400-6800 and only use 1 set of tees. They started out by using half handicap for net skins and we still got complaints about the amount of money that was being paid out to high cappers making net aces and net eagles. Some could argue that the league became more elitist by cutting out senior tees for old guys or preventing higher cap players from joining because the tees were pushed back but there are over 100 members with at least 60 players a week. It didn't hurt the numbers. It goes back to the argument that competition is better with closely matched players rather than big swings in handicap.

I agree with the bolded.

Our 9 hole league is 24 people, 12 groups. Age ranges from 24 to 72. Handicaps range from 3 to 20 for some of the women in the group. On any given night, three different tees get played per group.

Everybody knows each other as either friends, coworkers, or relatives. Nobody sandbags. We play match play and then combined net for 20 total points for most matches. Most matches finish 12-8 or closer. The course we play on gets rerated by the USGA and reallocates handicap holes every 10 years. Everybody is honest and does things as they should. Nobody complains about handicap stroke allocation. Hell, twice this summer I was beaten by a net ACE!!! I've lost holes to net eagles and halved net birdies. I have also won holes with a double bogey. Things even out with honest people.

Net skins are dumb.

 

[echico]

I agree with the bolded.

Our 9 hole league is 24 people, 12 groups. Age ranges from 24 to 72. Handicaps range from 3 to 20 for some of the women in the group. On any given night, three different tees get played per group.

Everybody knows each other as either friends, coworkers, or relatives. Nobody sandbags. We play match play and then combined net for 20 total points for most matches. Most matches finish 12-8 or closer. The course we play on gets rerated by the USGA and reallocates handicap holes every 10 years. Everybody is honest and does things as they should. Nobody complains about handicap stroke allocation. Hell, twice this summer I was beaten by a net ACE!!! I've lost holes to net eagles and halved net birdies. I have also won holes with a double bogey. Things even out with honest people and a large enough sample size.

Net skins are dumb.

Here is where I have an issue with honesty though. I can win money by winning the event net score. I can win my flight with net or gross score. I can win with CTP. I can win with gross and net skins. There are extra pots for a lot of things. If I get on the bogey train or get a triple on a hole then I am out for winning in stroke play. A lot of members, myself included, now switch to a full risk mode to go after skins or CTP's on sucker pins. Is that honest? I could be a 7 handicap but post a 99 because my aggressive play didn't work but I got 1 skin because I eagled a par 5. Now that shouldn't impact my handicap because 1 round out of 20 rounds (we only use league rounds for handicap) will get dropped. But if I am going through a slump I can easily add 4-5 rounds in a row of high scores because being out of the stroke play money leads to going after other money. I have seen players make more money winning skins than winning events and their handicap rises then they start winning events as well. They weren't purposely tanking but purposing going after money.

 

[Greg Kulbick]

The reason our league adapted was because the lower handicap players wanted to play from 6400-6800 and only use 1 set of tees. They started out by using half handicap for net skins and we still got complaints about the amount of money that was being paid out to high cappers making net aces and net eagles. Some could argue that the league became more elitist by cutting out senior tees for old guys or preventing higher cap players from joining because the tees were pushed back but there are over 100 members with at least 60 players a week. It didn't hurt the numbers. It goes back to the argument that competition is better with closely matched players rather than big swings in handicap.

We had something sort of like that in the points game I used to play in regularly. Some of the old guys, who play at a forward tee, were very good and still hit the ball a long way. They could score just as well from a tee back, where as the less skilled golfer that has to play back based on age, could probably play better moving up a tee. It kind of goes to the arguments of picking tee box based on ability and distance as opposed to just age. Picking the tee based on points gets discussed every now and then, and a lot of the high point/low cap old guys flat out say they'll leave the game if you make them move back a box, even though they can outdrive some of the younger guys playing a longer course.

 

[blugold]

Here is where I have an issue with honesty though. I can win money by winning the event net score. I can win my flight with net or gross score. I can win with CTP. I can win with gross and net skins. There are extra pots for a lot of things. If I get on the bogey train or get a triple on a hole then I am out for winning in stroke play. A lot of members, myself included, now switch to a full risk mode to go after skins or CTP's on sucker pins. Is that honest? I could be a 7 handicap but post a 99 because my aggressive play didn't work but I got 1 skin because I eagled a par 5. Now that shouldn't impact my handicap because 1 round out of 20 rounds (we only use league rounds for handicap) will get dropped. But if I am going through a slump I can easily add 4-5 rounds in a row of high scores because being out of the stroke play money leads to going after other money. I have seen players make more money winning skins than winning events and their handicap rises then they start winning events as well. They weren't purposely tanking but purposing going after money.

Honestly, sounds like a not fun league. Too many pots to play in with too many people trying to game the system and make money. None of those things you listed though are a problem with the handicap system. They are problems with how the handicap system is being implemented in a recreational amateur setting. What you're saying are problems with the handicap system, are not. They are problems that could be easily be fixed by getting rid of gross/net skins and CTP. It's not the handicap systems fault that net skins is a dumb way to do skins.

 

[echico]

Honestly, sounds like a not fun league. Too many pots to play in with too many people trying to game the system and make money. None of those things you listed though are a problem with the handicap system. They are problems with how the handicap system is being implemented in a recreational amateur setting. What you're saying are problems with the handicap system, are not. They are problems that could be easily be fixed by getting rid of gross/net skins and CTP. It's not the handicap systems fault that net skins is a dumb way to do skins.

You are wrong it is a super fun league. I have never heard a single golfer complain that there are too many opportunities to win money. If you got rid of skins and CTP's and only paid out the net winner then sandbagging would get worse IMHO.

You just keep going back to the handicap system is fine and it is being used incorrectly. I can agree with a lot of what you say about how the system itself works because they are facts. How the handicaps are used is the same everywhere though. The start of the this thread was on the use of the handicaps not how they are determined.

 

[blugold]

You are wrong it is a super fun league. I have never heard a single golfer complain that there are too many opportunities to win money. If you got rid of skins and CTP's and only paid out the net winner then sandbagging would get worse IMHO.

You just keep going back to the handicap system is fine and it is being used incorrectly. I can agree with a lot of what you say about how the system itself works because they are facts. How the handicaps are used is the same everywhere though. The start of the this thread was on the use of the handicaps not how they are determined.

If you are in a league where people will sandbag to win money, it's not a league I would want to play in. To each their own though. I don't see a distinction between how the handicaps are determined and how they are used in relation to the dynamic handicap idea here. A golfer's handicap can change hole to hole in the proposed system here.

 

[justagame]

Lots of interesting perspectives here, and clearly a touchy subject. Assuming that HCs are calculated correctly and based on a fair process (as this is about how they are used) -- the only thing I would agree on, and many clubs do this already, is that in team or group events in which the better ball is chosen, it is right to lower the # of strokes given. Our club already does this, you get between 70% and 90% of your HC depending on the team size and format. Higher HCs have greater variability, and that variability becomes an asset in team best ball play.

It's also worth noting that something that is calculated at the aggregate is naturally going to be imperfect when applied on a hole-by-hole, or even a shot-by-shot basis. As many have pointed out, higher HCs have high indexes for many reasons, not just because they can't hit a green.

To use myself as an example, I'm inconsistent. I have some deeply ingrained swing flaws that come up, and a mental game that goes down the tubes when they arise, making things worse. So like anyone else at my index, I have good days and bad days, and a whole lot of inconsistent mediocre days. I look great on my best holes, I look like I've never picked up a club on my worst.

It's been my experience that other players are totally fine with me getting strokes -- as long as I'm having a bad day. The moment I play well, for even a short stretch of holes, I get accused of being dishonest or hear grumbles about unfairness. In men's league earlier this year, I had a guy on another team accuse me of being a sandbagger because he saw ONE good drive of mine, ONE really nice approach shot and I had a good day. I was paired with that same guy months later, at the end of the summer, when my game was falling apart and I was struggling in a major way. I couldn't even make decent contact it was so bad. He was clearly frustrated that I was pulling him down, but also very clearly did not remember me. The same guy who months before had accused me of being a sandbagger was now politely advising me that I shouldn't carry a vanity handicap if I wanted to enter team events. So, apparently giving the calculated # of strokes to high HCs is perfectly fine and justified -- as long as they don't play well against you.

You want to deny someone their appropriate # of strokes when they hit a good shot? Well, are you then going to give them MORE strokes than listed when they pull their tee shot into the woods, top the ball 20 yards, or badly muff a pitch? If not, accept the fact that a HC calculated in aggregate is not going to yield what feels like perfectly appropriate adjustments on a shot-by-shot basis.

 

[bkuehn1952]

One of the primary responsibilities of a player who maintains a handicap is to "attempt to make the best score possible on each hole." Switching to "full risk mode" seems to run counter to that idea. Yes, one could argue that going for a sucker pin was an attempt to make birdie or better, which is, no doubt, the best possible outcome. Still, unless one always plays "full risk", posting the score could be viewed as manipulating one's handicap.

 

[echico]

If you are in a league where people will sandbag to win money, it's not a league I would want to play in. To each their own though. I don't see a distinction between how the handicaps are determined and how they are used in relation to the dynamic handicap idea here. A golfer's handicap can change hole to hole in the proposed system here.

So trying to get the best possible score on every hole is sandbagging. Yes we are not professionals and we will miss more than we make but I don't see it as sandbagging to try and birdie every hole. I don't try to do shots I know are not in my ability but I will be more aggressive.

If I were sandbagging it would be just walking up to my ball and putting at it without looking at the cup or raking the ball across the whole until it goes in. If I did that it would cost me way more money to enter enough events to raise my handicap than to win a single event with that elevated handicap. It is dumb.

 

[echico]

One of the primary responsibilities of a player who maintains a handicap is to "attempt to make the best score possible on each hole." Switching to "full risk mode" seems to run counter to that idea. Yes, one could argue that going for a sucker pin was an attempt to make birdie or better, which is, no doubt, the best possible outcome. Still, unless one always plays "full risk", posting the score could be viewed as manipulating one's handicap.

So if I play the same course all the time and for giggles I wanted to take different lines or try different clubs off the tee then I shouldn't enter my score? I totally get if I am out of it and start taking 9i off the tee to purposely try to increase my score. I also get it if by being aggressive I have to take on a 300 yd forced carry when my driver only goes 250 and I need to lay up. Those are forcing higher scores. If I have a shot and just have to take an aggressive line because I am feeling froggy that day trying to get a birdie or eagle that is not sandbagging.

Also if that is considered sandbagging then it should work the opposite way as well. If I play a course enough and my average score on the par 4 10th is a 4.3 then don't put an 8 on my scorecard because it is obviously an outlier.

 

[bkuehn1952]

Here could be my thought process. "Darn, two triples on the first three holes. There is no way I am going to make a good score today. Okay, I think I will go for everything. I know the outcome will probably be a high score but I might make a birdie or two. Make some money." I am not thinking about boosting my handicap but at the same time, I am not trying to make the best score possible.

 

[echico]

Here could be my thought process. "Darn, two triples on the first three holes. There is no way I am going to make a good score today. Okay, I think I will go for everything. I know the outcome will probably be a high score but I might make a birdie or two. Make some money." I am not thinking about boosting my handicap but at the same time, I am not trying to make the best score possible.

Or it could focus you on positive outcomes instead of dwelling on bad holes. I am still in something instead of being defeated after a couple of holes. Again you are trying to get best possible score on each hole instead of just going through the motions of a bad round.

 

[bkuehn1952]

So if I play the same course all the time and for giggles I wanted to take different lines or try different clubs off the tee then I shouldn't enter my score?

I might consider that a practice round. If you did this every once in a while, I do not see how anyone would consider that manipulating your handicap if you did post the score.

If I have a shot and just have to take an aggressive line because I am feeling froggy that day trying to get a birdie or eagle that is not sandbagging.

I don't disagree that playing aggressively at times is a perfectly reasonable approach. If you played like that for 14 of 18 holes mainly because you scored poorly on the first 4 holes and decided to go skin hunting, that seems like one is not trying for the best score. You might not want to post that score.

 

[AnthonyC]

This is why oldandstuff and I did that podcast and were met with zero resistance.

 

[jjjgolf500]

One of the primary responsibilities of a player who maintains a handicap is to "attempt to make the best score possible on each hole." Switching to "full risk mode" seems to run counter to that idea. Yes, one could argue that going for a sucker pin was an attempt to make birdie or better, which is, no doubt, the best possible outcome. Still, unless one always plays "full risk", posting the score could be viewed as manipulating one's handicap.

You can also switch to full risk mode and play much better than normal. Golf is unpredictable.

The good thing about the system is it only take 8 of 20 scores. So if you have a round or two you go into attack mode and it ends poorly, it doesn't matter much. Or if if have a round you decide to play safe any it backfires, it doesn't matter much.

 

[BigDill]

I don't understand what this has to do with anything regarding a match between two players.

It doesn't at that moment, but it does when the discussion is about potential, which is what the handicap calculates. For example, I can walk around as a 17, then take 1 clipping lesson and get some competence, shave 4 duffs from my round, and finish 3 under my cap was easier than learning how to stop slicing my drive.

 

[blugold]

So trying to get the best possible score on every hole is sandbagging. Yes we are not professionals and we will miss more than we make but I don't see it as sandbagging to try and birdie every hole. I don't try to do shots I know are not in my ability but I will be more aggressive.

If I were sandbagging it would be just walking up to my ball and putting at it without looking at the cup or raking the ball across the whole until it goes in. If I did that it would cost me way more money to enter enough events to raise my handicap than to win a single event with that elevated handicap. It is dumb.

I don't know what you're talking about really. You said your league would sandbag without the CTP and net skins. I just said that a league like that doesn't sound fun. Granted, I don't rate a golf league by the amount of money to be won or the competition level, I judge golf leagues by the constitution of the people playing in it.

Regarding walking up and putting and racking scenario to inflate your handicap, the handicap system has a procedure in place to remove your handicap and you from competitive play. It also has ESC protection and exceptional score stipulations.

 

[echico]

I don't know what you're talking about really. You said your league would sandbag without the CTP and net skins. I just said that a league like that doesn't sound fun. Granted, I don't rate a golf league by the amount of money to be won or the competition level, I judge golf leagues by the constitution of the people playing in it.

Regarding walking up and putting and racking scenario to inflate your handicap, the handicap system has a procedure in place to remove your handicap and you from competitive play. It also has ESC protection and exceptional score stipulations.

I never said the league sandbags. You interpreted playing with more risk as sandbagging.

I totally understand ESC and I can still put a double on every hole. Again for me to do that is dumb as I just wasted money to add a score in that won't count.

 

[blugold]

@echico am I miss interpreting this? Are you saying in your league, without all of the other side games, sandbagging would get worse? Or just sandbagging in general? I disagree with latter and assumed the former.

You are wrong it is a super fun league. I have never heard a single golfer complain that there are too many opportunities to win money. If you got rid of skins and CTP's and only paid out the net winner then sandbagging would get worse IMHO.

You just keep going back to the handicap system is fine and it is being used incorrectly. I can agree with a lot of what you say about how the system itself works because they are facts. How the handicaps are used is the same everywhere though. The start of the this thread was on the use of the handicaps not how they are determined.

 

[AnthonyC]

I heard dynamic handicapping is being named after bluegold.

 

[echico]

@echico am I miss interpreting this? Are you saying in your league, without all of the other side games, sandbagging would get worse? Or just sandbagging in general? I disagree with latter and assumed the former.

That is not about the league I am in. If the only way to make money in any league then you will get sandbaggers to win that money. It doesn't matter if it is for a nickel or thousands. To win skins or CTP you actually have to do something good on the course.