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How to Fix the Broken Handicap System: Dynamic Handicapping

I am going to preface this with I haven’t read the whole thread just the first few pages. That said I don’t think I am interested in a system that dynamically changes handicaps in the middle of the round. I would prefer to know where any strokes are going to fall before the round.

Sandbagging is a different issue it is people that cheat and they suck. I don’t have a solution other than a strong handicap committee at the club.
 
Chef23 said:
I am going to preface this with I haven’t read the whole thread just the first few pages. That said I don’t think I am interested in a system that dynamically changes handicaps in the middle of the round. I would prefer to know where any strokes are going to fall before the round.

Sandbagging is a different issue it is people that cheat and they suck. I don’t have a solution other than a strong handicap committee at the club.
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OldandStiff said:
Copying this over from the Live Round thread.

View attachment 9123167

Last hole, par 3, mine is 87 yards longer and she gets 2 pops. This is after tee shots. She's red. What's the expected outcome of the perfectly fair and non-dynamic system in place on this?
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You're playing a match against somebody who is getting two pops on a par 3?!?! Whoa.
 
goalie said:
Exactly. Why?
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Because the system can handle people of different skill levels competing fairly, right? That's the reason for its existence, so if it can't....
 
OldandStiff said:
Because the system can handle people of different skill levels competing, right? That's the only reason for its existence, so if it can't....
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What were the rest of the holes like? How did the match end up? I'm amazed that a course has a par 3 which is getting 2 pops. I'm just thinking, based on the course I play, that's a 30+ differential between handicaps.
 
blugold said:
What were the rest of the holes like? How did the match end up? I'm amazed that a course has a par 3 which is getting 2 pops. I'm just thinking, based on the course I play, that's a 30+ differential between handicaps.
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If you're saying the differential between players matters or has an relevance/bearing on outcomes you're agreeing with every statement I've made in this thread.

And tournament directors, and other peoples.
 
blugold said:
You're playing a match against somebody who is getting two pops on a par 3?!?! Whoa.
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Isnt that the entire reason for the handicap system?
 
OldandStiff said:
If you're saying the differential between players matters or has an relevance you're agreeing with every statement I've made in this thread.

And tournament directors, and other peoples.
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I've said the handicap system works best when players are somewhat close in ability. A 30+ differential is not close. How did the rest of the match go?
 
JB said:
Isnt that the entire reason for the handicap system?
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Yes. Of course it is. Just a huge differential. That's all.
 
blugold said:
I've said the handicap system works best when players are somewhat close in ability. A 30+ differential is not close. How did the rest of the match go?
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It was just friends. We had a great time and I'm in a good mood. It's just an example of where it could improve, specifically with the OP suggestion. I played well but would have been out long before the end.
 
OldandStiff said:
It was just friends. We had a great time and I'm in a good mood. It's just an example of where it could improve, specifically with the OP suggestion. I played well but would have been out long before the end.
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That scenario you laid out is a goofy one. I would bet, you playing a person with a handicap over 30, the scores would even out over the other 17 holes.
 
OldandStiff said:
Because the system can handle people of different skill levels competing fairly, right? That's the reason for its existence, so if it can't....
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I think it can. I also have no desire to play above so much better or worse than me that 2 pops are given on a par 3.

It's a statistical outlier for someone that bad to be on the GIR. She didn't get "better" because it happened. You probably had some better than normal shots or putts as well during the round. Should she have gotten an extra pop when that happened?
 
JB said:
Isnt that the entire reason for the handicap system?
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I'd argue no, otherwise flights wouldn't exist for net tournament play.

I'll also say that, as someone who isn't good, I have no desire to play competitively with someone who routinely shoots 30+ strokes worse than me. For fun, hell yeah, let's suck fast!!! But for money or a tourney? Nah, no thanks.
 
blugold said:
That scenario you laid out is a goofy one. I would bet, you playing a person with a handicap over 30, the scores would even out over the other 17 holes.
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he mentioned earlier they wouldn’t have even made it a full 18 holes….


OldandStiff said:
I played the first 3 at -3 and took them. The 4th wouldn't have mattered because she would have closed me out on about hole 13. And I shot a 69 par'ing out after that point.
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goalie said:
I'd argue no, otherwise flights wouldn't exist for net tournament play.

I'll also say that, as someone who isn't good, I have no desire to play competitively with someone who routinely shoots 30+ strokes worse than me. For fun, hell yeah, let's suck fast!!! But for money or a tourney? Nah, no thanks.
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If the handicap system works as currently constituted, then it should work the same regardless of handicap. And that’s exactly my point, it currently favors high cap having a good day then a low cap having a bad one. And even with a 30, the highest flights are usually around 15-17 and up, which would still put someone giving 15 strokes+.
 
BigDill said:
If the handicap system works as currently constituted, then it should work the same regardless of handicap. And that’s exactly my point, it currently favors high cap having a good day then a low cap having a bad one. And even with a 30, the highest flights are usually around 15-17 and up, which would still put someone giving 15 strokes+.
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Do you think this holds true for stroke play as well or just match play?
 
BigDill said:
If the handicap system works as currently constituted, then it should work the same regardless of handicap. And that’s exactly my point, it currently favors high cap having a good day then a low cap having a bad one. And even with a 30, the highest flights are usually around 15-17 and up, which would still put someone giving 15 strokes+.
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Nobody gets two pops on a par 3 with 15 strokes given. ;)

You start the match with a difference in talent represented by strokes given. They're given based on hole disparity in score between scratch and bogey golfer "average" on the hole.

The idea that you're going to start a match, especially anything for money, and the rules change during the match based on how you're performing on any given hole is a hard no from me all day, any day ending in Y.
 
Scooby45 said:
Do you think this holds true for stroke play as well or just match play?
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I do, but other have argued against it throughout this thread. The debate is that in stroke play all strokes count the same so what does it matter. It’s a fair point. My counterpoint is that we are trying to use handicap to make a player net to par, not under, and the likelihood of a successful outcome of a shot increases as the player moves closer to the hole, so DH works. That has not been widely accepted.
 
goalie said:
Nobody gets two pops on a par 3 with 15 strokes given. ;)

You start the match with a difference in talent represented by strokes given. They're given based on hole disparity in score between scratch and bogey golfer "average" on the hole.

The idea that you're going to start a match, especially anything for money, and the rules change during the match based on how you're performing on any given hole is a hard no from me all day, any day ending in Y.
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So I get your point but to be clear, the rules don’t change halfway into a round. They are the rules going in. So as has been stated throughout this thread, the player can either (a) go for the green and lose the pop of successful, or (b) land short and chip on with all pops preserved.

And with all of this, I would be surprised if the total average score difference wasnt around 2, if adopted.
 
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