I wonder if I'm just supposed to be using super improvement player irons?

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
Alright this is a confusing one to explain my thoughts on, but I just want to be slightly better than a bogey golfer...17 handicap or so would thrill me! Right now i'm lucky if I break a 100. According to arccos i'm a 30 handicap.

I golfed a 104 yesterday and comparing it to a 17 handicap it's something like this:
Lost 7 strokes to driver
Lost 11 strokes to approach shots IN PARTICULAR 9 from 100-150 yards
Lost -0.7 shots on short game
Gained +2.5 on putting (averaged 1.8 putts and had 3 up and downs)

It's not hard to see where I struggle, and this is consistent across multiple games this season. So in comes my question. I have two clubs I love. My putter. And this dumb 37 degree chipper I got from Pinemeadow 2 years ago for like $40. Can't say I have any confidence with any other club in my bag. It's basically a 7 iron with a massive sole. I use it off the fringe, out of the rough, anywhere from 10 yards to 50 yards. https://www.pinemeadowgolf.com/golf-clubs/wedges/excel-egi-chipper.pfs

My question is should I be looking at some of these super game improvement irons that almost look like this 37 degree chipper? Would a club champion even fit those type of irons? I'm talking something like the Cobra T Rails or the Cleveland Turbo HB's? I have just cheap player improvement irons now that kind of mimic an old school ping (gigagolf p3 bros). I just don't understand how much you take away from your play when you go this super improvement route. My weakness is literally contact. I just struggle to make clean contact with any of my clubs on a full swing, and I'm wondering if equipment can't help me? I'm currently trialing a set of OL Cobras from globalgolf to try to improve consistency but...was curious if anybody like me has had success moving from the club they learned golf on, took lessons with and still moved to some of these super improvement player irons with the really fat soles?
 

Raiderboost

2020 Titleist Vokey Experience Participant
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
2,531
Reaction score
1,961
Location
Georgetown, Tx
Handicap
5.2
Personally I would spend money on lessons before new clubs. If your not making clean contact then that is where you will get improvement. Doesn’t matter if you have blades or SGI’s, if you don’t hit the ball somewhat correct then it doesn’t really matter. Now if you were making fairly consistent contact but just hit it all over the face then the SGI’s might help. They still might but not as much as a few good lessons in my opinion.
 

JohnSinVA

Porkins
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
11,295
Reaction score
747
Location
Too close to golfinnut
Handicap
Alright this is a confusing one to explain my thoughts on, but I just want to be slightly better than a bogey golfer...17 handicap or so would thrill me! Right now i'm lucky if I break a 100. According to arccos i'm a 30 handicap.

I golfed a 104 yesterday and comparing it to a 17 handicap it's something like this:
Lost 7 strokes to driver
Lost 11 strokes to approach shots IN PARTICULAR 9 from 100-150 yards
Lost -0.7 shots on short game
Gained +2.5 on putting (averaged 1.8 putts and had 3 up and downs)

It's not hard to see where I struggle, and this is consistent across multiple games this season. So in comes my question. I have two clubs I love. My putter. And this dumb 37 degree chipper I got from Pinemeadow 2 years ago for like $40. Can't say I have any confidence with any other club in my bag. It's basically a 7 iron with a massive sole. I use it off the fringe, out of the rough, anywhere from 10 yards to 50 yards. https://www.pinemeadowgolf.com/golf-clubs/wedges/excel-egi-chipper.pfs

My question is should I be looking at some of these super game improvement irons that almost look like this 37 degree chipper? Would a club champion even fit those type of irons? I'm talking something like the Cobra T Rails or the Cleveland Turbo HB's? I have just cheap player improvement irons now that kind of mimic an old school ping (gigagolf p3 bros). I just don't understand how much you take away from your play when you go this super improvement route. My weakness is literally contact. I just struggle to make clean contact with any of my clubs on a full swing, and I'm wondering if equipment can't help me? I'm currently trialing a set of OL Cobras from globalgolf to try to improve consistency but...was curious if anybody like me has had success moving from the club they learned golf on, took lessons with and still moved to some of these super improvement player irons with the really fat soles?
Since you’re asking about irons tell us more about your approach shot misses:

Was your miss consistent? E.g. 90% were short and right. Were you making solid contact or was your contact inconsistent?

An iron like you describe can certainly help but it won’t cure swing flaws. If you’re hitting a lot of fat shots (ground before ball) a wide soled iron will help prevent digging in and retain some club head speed so you don’t lose as much distance. Plus they’ll help keep distance up when you don’t find the center of the face. You’ll still need to work on correcting swing flaws, but they can potentially help prevent dropping so many shots.
 

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
Since you’re asking about irons tell us more about your approach shot misses:

Was your miss consistent? E.g. 90% were short and right. Were you making solid contact or was your contact inconsistent?

An iron like you describe can certainly help but it won’t cure swing flaws. If you’re hitting a lot of fat shots (ground before ball) a wide soled iron will help prevent digging in and retain some club head speed so you don’t lose as much distance. Plus they’ll help keep distance up when you don’t find the center of the face. You’ll still need to work on correcting swing flaws, but they can potentially help prevent dropping so many shots.
You might have just sold me on potentially getting something that is less forgiving on fats. I'm short. 72% of my approaches are short and it's almost always due to a fat shot. Not a complete chunk, I almost broke my wrist type shot, but just hitting that ground a bit before contact to where it's shaving 20 yards or so. The other 28% is off to the right where I'm opening the club face a bit too much I'm thinking?

What's amazing is how bad I am off the fairway. I'd almost rather be in the rough.

And I know some of you all will say club up, but I just think that is easier said then done for beginners. There's a sharp drop off when I start getting into my long irons. For example average distance on a 5i is 100 yards according to arccos lol. It's terrible.
1614434520024.png
 

NEhomer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
771
Reaction score
858
Handicap
8.4
Excellent advice so far.

I'll add the importance of drills to beginners and high handicappers. Sometimes, practice without hitting balls can be very beneficial, boring but important beyond just muscle memory. Sometimes important changes don't always work at first because you haven't grooved the motion and when you're trying to hit balls, you invariably drop back into the bad habits that you started with to get the ball to do what you're used to.

If you've been cutting across the ball, for a few minutes watching golf, push the left shoulder out, pull the right one back a bit and make swinging motions on a plane from in to out. Just a few minutes a day, then bring that feeling/motion out to the range. Over time, large muscle changes will become more comfortable.
 

NEhomer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
771
Reaction score
858
Handicap
8.4
You might have just sold me on potentially getting something that is less forgiving on fats. I'm short. 72% of my approaches are short and it's almost always due to a fat shot. Not a complete chunk, I almost broke my wrist type shot, but just hitting that ground a bit before contact to where it's shaving 20 yards or so. The other 28% is off to the right where I'm opening the club face a bit too much I'm thinking?

What's amazing is how bad I am off the fairway. I'd almost rather be in the rough.

And I know some of you all will say club up, but I just think that is easier said then done for beginners. There's a sharp drop off when I start getting into my long irons. For example average distance on a 5i is 100 yards according to arccos lol. It's terrible.
Oh man, I remember the days when that was me.

What's happening with fatted shots is the bottom of your swing isn't happening at the ball. Now, beyond that, there's all sorts of info needed and a couple of directions in instruction to fix it but you have to stop bottoming out in front of the ball.
 

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
For reference I'm headed in to my 13th lesson next week. I've had lessons, I feel good about knowing what I SHOULD be doing. But it's alot, and for whatever reason I just can't seem to execute the steps I've been given consistently when it comes to irons in particular. It's frustrating obviously. I do think some of it is I just need to swing and not THINK so much, but I do wonder if a more forgiving iron would help.

As a low handicap...do you all think about your swing at all when you step up to a ball? I'd love to hear what like a 17 handicapper thinks about at address. I've always heard only go to the ball with 2-3 thoughts cause it's all your mind can handle. But my 2-3 thoughts change 50 times throughout a round. "Hands high at top of swing, flick wrists at impact" "Rotate hips, stop sway" "F everything...just think about HITTING the ball" "hmm ok that didn't work um how about we think about keeping my head down, left arm straight." "Crap...ok lets really think about rotating that hip out before downswing this time." Like...that's how my mind goes lol..
 

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
Oh man, I remember the days when that was me.

What's happening with fatted shots is the bottom of your swing isn't happening at the ball. Now, beyond that, there's all sorts of info needed and a couple of directions in instruction to fix it but you have to stop bottoming out in front of the ball.
Yea but that goes back to my OP. Maybe a fatter sole would help me? I'm not expecting equipment to completely morph my game. I get what you guys are saying about lessons, but there's just some disconnect with that downward attack angle. Like I don't know...
 

kiwichris

Well-known member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
1,885
Reaction score
1,347
Location
Denver, CO
Handicap
Golf
You might have just sold me on potentially getting something that is less forgiving on fats. I'm short. 72% of my approaches are short and it's almost always due to a fat shot. Not a complete chunk, I almost broke my wrist type shot, but just hitting that ground a bit before contact to where it's shaving 20 yards or so. The other 28% is off to the right where I'm opening the club face a bit too much I'm thinking?

What's amazing is how bad I am off the fairway. I'd almost rather be in the rough.

And I know some of you all will say club up, but I just think that is easier said then done for beginners. There's a sharp drop off when I start getting into my long irons. For example average distance on a 5i is 100 yards according to arccos lol. It's terrible.
View attachment 8995455
I would start looking at ball position then practice swings, if you bottom out behind the ball for the club adjust stance so it bottoms out after the ball.
Thought should be ball first then grass.
 

NEhomer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
771
Reaction score
858
Handicap
8.4
For reference I'm headed in to my 13th lesson next week. I've had lessons, I feel good about knowing what I SHOULD be doing. But it's alot, and for whatever reason I just can't seem to execute the steps I've been given consistently when it comes to irons in particular. It's frustrating obviously. I do think some of it is I just need to swing and not THINK so much, but I do wonder if a more forgiving iron would help.

As a low handicap...do you all think about your swing at all when you step up to a ball? I'd love to hear what like a 17 handicapper thinks about at address. I've always heard only go to the ball with 2-3 thoughts cause it's all your mind can handle. But my 2-3 thoughts change 50 times throughout a round. "Hands high at top of swing, flick wrists at impact" "Rotate hips, stop sway" "F everything...just think about HITTING the ball" "hmm ok that didn't work um how about we think about keeping my head down, left arm straight." "Crap...ok lets really think about rotating that hip out before downswing this time." Like...that's how my mind goes lol..
Yes, there are many possible thoughts but right now, for you only one of the 4 you listed are important. "Hands high at top of swing, Don't worry about how high your hands are, they're high enough to break 100. flick wrists at impact" Um, no, don't make any conscious effort to flick your wrists. Cripes, I hope your instructor isn't telling you that. "Rotate hips, Your hips will rotate, you can't keep them from rotating and they too are rotating enough to break 100. stop sway" Bingo...that's the one. You can't make consistent contact if you're not centered.

Stay centered/balanced and hit the ball first. Yeah, limit swing thoughts but dial in the most important one or two for you.

kiwicris suggested a great idea in adjusting ball position to start.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
5,795
Reaction score
1,675
Handicap
2
For reference I'm headed in to my 13th lesson next week. I've had lessons, I feel good about knowing what I SHOULD be doing. But it's alot, and for whatever reason I just can't seem to execute the steps I've been given consistently
How much time per week do you spend making swings, either at home or a driving range ?
Also, you've written "it's alot" in reference to what your instructor and, or, other people have given you to think about. This is wrong. A competent instructor will give you nothing to "think about" during the swing.
 

WLG1952

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2019
Messages
3,596
Reaction score
2,321
Location
Boulder City, NV....... for a while
Handicap
13.3
Lessons, a club fitting, and then "fitted" new irons, in that order.

A little more expense involved, and definitely more time consuming, but this will pay major dividends down the road.
 

kiwichris

Well-known member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
1,885
Reaction score
1,347
Location
Denver, CO
Handicap
Golf
I too ponder this thought, but I cannot get my eye to be happy with the size and looks of SGI gear.
 

Snickerdog

Team THP 2019 Grandaddy Alumni
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Dec 8, 2015
Messages
30,331
Reaction score
23,310
Location
KS
Handicap
3.6
For reference I'm headed in to my 13th lesson next week. I've had lessons, I feel good about knowing what I SHOULD be doing. But it's alot, and for whatever reason I just can't seem to execute the steps I've been given consistently when it comes to irons in particular. It's frustrating obviously. I do think some of it is I just need to swing and not THINK so much, but I do wonder if a more forgiving iron would help.

As a low handicap...do you all think about your swing at all when you step up to a ball? I'd love to hear what like a 17 handicapper thinks about at address. I've always heard only go to the ball with 2-3 thoughts cause it's all your mind can handle. But my 2-3 thoughts change 50 times throughout a round. "Hands high at top of swing, flick wrists at impact" "Rotate hips, stop sway" "F everything...just think about HITTING the ball" "hmm ok that didn't work um how about we think about keeping my head down, left arm straight." "Crap...ok lets really think about rotating that hip out before downswing this time." Like...that's how my mind goes lol..
You shouldn't be having any thoughts at all. You know how to hit the ball, look from behind the ball and find the line, take a practice swing, address the ball and hit it. There is no need to over think what you are doing when you address the ball. Try it and I bet you will find things will improve.
 

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
@NEhomer - He doesn't really tell me to do anything, but in the various lessons I've had all those points have been made to some extent.

@DG_1234 - I don't really know what you mean. The purpose of lessons is to teach right? Teaching creates thoughts and things to study. I've also read Ben Hogan's book. That all creates thoughts and things to think about?

I practice daily. At least 30 minutes a day. I have a net at home and a flight monitor I use. I also go to the simulator twice a week for an 1.5 hours or so, and play weekly which includes range time. And I can see that practice in other areas of my game. My short game is really good for a 30 handicap. Imo. Just isn't translating as well on irons.

@Snickerdog - Ok...I mean maybe I just have to start hitting the ball and not think about all the logistics.

@kiwichris - I don't really care about the look of my clubs at all. If a fatter soul can help me strike more consistently I don't care what they look like.

@WLG1952 - I've taken 13 lessons though with two different instructors, so can you qualify what you mean when you say "take lessons"? I also dont' know the different between a club fitting and "fitted" irons?
 

fuffle master

Hit it, Hit it, Hit it Hard!!
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Mar 17, 2018
Messages
8,807
Reaction score
4,206
Handicap
17.3
Lessons are far more important than your clubs if you want to lower your handicap. With that said, I am a big proponent of getting fit with the most golf improvement clubs you like. I believe a lot of golf is in the mind. Some look at the chunky game improvement irons/clubs and just can’t stand them. Others are willing to play a full set of super game improvement irons/clubs. But, the importance is getting that swing in order and just having fun.
 

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
Yea again I don't care about the look. I think maybe what I'm asking is...at a 17 handicap how much does control of the iron face really come into play. My buddy is probably a 22 handicapish and he actually said yesterday I've never tried to hit a draw or a fade in my life. Which led me to think down this path. I get you lose "control" on these big super improvement irons like the Cleveland HB Launcher Turbos, but I'm not even sure I'll ever get to the point where I need to think about shaping my irons lol. I hope...but...if that's really all I'm gaining from playing a player improvement over a super playing imrpovement. I guess I ask myself why not get the way more forgiving club?
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
5,795
Reaction score
1,675
Handicap
2
@DG_1234 - I don't really know what you mean. The purpose of lessons is to teach right?

A competent instructor teaches sound fundamental address technique, that is grip-posture-alignment. From there a player's own consistently effective swing naturally emerges, without ever having to "think about" anything during the swing.
 

V14_Heels

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
265
Reaction score
119
Location
Richmond, VA
Handicap
28
A competent instructor teaches sound fundamental address technique, that is grip-posture-alignment. From there a player's own consistently effective swing naturally emerges, without ever having to "think about" anything during the swing.
Yea I don't really understand the concept of what your saying. Grip, posture, alignment all things we've covered in great detail, but that doesn't come naturally without practice, drills, all things that a NEW player has to "think about". Repetition of thoughts is what creates a pattern that no longer has to be thought about. I just truly dont' know what you mean philosophically. I can get behind the idea of trying to think less at the swing, but overall I just don't know how a NEW player could EVER be taught in a way that they don't have to think about their swing.
 

Carolina Dundee

Better to be lucky than good
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Messages
2,848
Reaction score
1,816
Location
Raleigh
Handicap
16.5
Do you have access to a par 3 course?

If you want to work on the approach shots there is nothing better than only having those to play. This can also help with your yardages and give added confidence on the course.

Other option is work on the shots inside of 100 yds because it sounds like you have a lot of them.
 

DG_1234

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
5,795
Reaction score
1,675
Handicap
2
I just don't know how a NEW player could EVER be taught in a way that they don't have to think about their swing.
Consider that grip-posture-alignment are the fundamentals from which a consistently effective swing emerges. For example, fundamentally sound address technique creates proper body turn-pivot, effective weight shift, naturally efficient swing plane, smooth rhythmic tempo etc...
 

BahBahBS

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
71
Reaction score
109
Location
San Francisco
Handicap
14
But my 2-3 thoughts change 50 times throughout a round. "Hands high at top of swing, flick wrists at impact" "Rotate hips, stop sway" "F everything...just think about HITTING the ball" "hmm ok that didn't work um how about we think about keeping my head down, left arm straight." "Crap...ok lets really think about rotating that hip out before downswing this time." Like...that's how my mind goes lol..
For me, and I definitely get there, this is a horrible place to be. Once I start trying new swing thoughts, ball and/or hand positions, etc...on the course, it's over. I've rarely "found" what I'm looking for on the course and all of that crowds out some of the things I enjoy most about golf. If I'm on the tee box or walking down the fairway thinking about what I'm going to change to fix what just happened I'm not leaving room to enjoy the course, look at the trees, assess what my next "good" shot will look like, BS with whoever I play w/, etc...

I've just started playing again in the last five or six months after a five to six yr layoff. I've finally come back to some really basic stuff. Visualize the shot I want to hit, swing thought, "Smooooth" on backswing and "Through" on downswing. Watch ball go wherever it goes. If a miss begins to be recurring adjust my aim point to "play whay I have" that particular day, don't try to fix it or adjust the swing, adjust tolTO the "swing" for the day and keep the same swing thought at address. Strangely, with this approach I often times "get my swing back" in the round.

Enjoy, and go Heels.
 

tequila4kapp

Well-known member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
35,746
Reaction score
4,728
Location
Tigard, OR
Handicap
USGA 13.5
Different irons may offer some help but not so much that they are likely to get you to your goal. It sounds like you could use some assistance from a teaching professional, and that lessons might be a better path right now than new clubs.
 

Duffer Seamus

C'mon ball, do your thing
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Jun 17, 2020
Messages
2,259
Reaction score
1,988
Location
S.E. Michigan
@V14_Heels, you're talking about "losing control" of the club face and changes to your irons when you admittedly can't strike the ball cleanly, consistently as it is. IMO you're putting the cart before the horse.

You say you're on your 13th lesson and feel that you know what you're supposed to do, but apparently are unable to execute with any degree of consistency. This suggests to me you're getting ineffective instruction. @DG_1234 alluded to this in his comments just above.

You might be well-served by reading this thread: Golf instruction and golf lessons... and finding a better instructor.

As for SGI irons, fitting, etc.: None of that is magically going to turn poor, inconsistent swings into good ball-hitting.
 

Rebel4life

Active member
Albatross 2021 Club
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Messages
615
Reaction score
192
Location
Alabama
Handicap
Mid
I'd like to expand on something @kiwichris and @NEhomer said earlier. The purpose of my practice swing is not to loosen up nor groove my swing. Rather I'm testing where my swing bottoms out. You want that point to be just beyond the ball (i.e., toward the green side). Once I started doing that with my practice swings, I improved my ball-first contact with my irons. I used to think OL irons would solve the issue for me, but each swing on the course is different (each bottom out point is different) because it's influenced by the terrain ... is the ball below your feet, above, level? Are you swinging up hill, down hill, level?

So, my advice for what it's worth, is use your practice swing to discover exactly where the club is first making contact with the turf. Having played SGI irons in the past, in my experience, they did not help me very much with fat shots. Your experience might be different.
 

Welcome to The Hackers Paradise

Don't just play golf, live it!

Register Log in
Top