Is a convex shape shaft strike on the ball probable?

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Why not try to follow the logic of the system that I have proposed in my post. A lot of ideas come through thought processes. When it becomes a practice, you will have all the data then.
I think this is what most that are following this thread are waiting for. You mentioned that you are not here to sell a book, so why not lay out the system on how the golf swing achieves this.
 

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Not really. I have changed Hogan's right and left foot positions. You can try my new positions. You can feel the 20 degrees right foot can allow you to have a tighter backswing sooner. The backswing will be shorter. The shoulder and hip planes will be at a maximum of 45 degrees. That is the maximum energy generation possible. It is a real-time effect you can find out for yourself. It is not even 'theory'. It is a practical outcome.

I am not sure Einstein whether had any data when he proposed E=MC2. I thought his thesis was confirmed much later. And I am nowhere near proposing such profound stuff. Just logical mundane stuff that can be readily experienced if only you wish to test it out.
Please don't compare yourself to Einstein. And how do we "easily experience" it? I think that's what we are all waiting for.

It is not an assumption. The data is available at PGA.com. If a 14-yard improvement over 2 decades does not show stagnation, then I can't marshall any more persuasive data.


Its an assumption because you are assuming that 14 yards was the only difference and there was no external influences impacting that number. The USGA is actively researching how to roll back distance because its gotten to long, per their assumption. The PGA average is not a true representation of total distance capability but rather in competition conditions. During that window, other factors ( course conditions, physical fitness, course layout, weather factors ) impact your assumption that 14 yards was ONLY a result of lack of 'progress' in swing. The biggest factor being the clubs themselves. The number could be higher on the potential ( USGA's opinion ) and other factors reduced the average to 14 yards.

If you are still using a 22 degrees left foot set at address, then you should try using 45 degrees, it will not block the rotation of your lower body and slow yoru downswing. Try it. You have nothing to lose.
Tony Finau sets his left foot 45 degrees at address. He has a powerful swing. He is one of 5 professionals whose swings I have analyzed and know can do the convex strike when he adopts the core principles that I have mentioned.


I guess you didn't actually read this part of my post or didn't understand it. I already have my foot at ~45 degrees. How would Tony Finau adopt the convex strike? What guidance would you give him. Or assuming I swing like Tony with my 45 degree left foot, how would you get me to swing that way?


You need to adopt all three core principles simultaneously. They are mutually reinforcing. They are designed to increase energy generation (the subject of my #2 post) and increase the efficiency of converting that energy into a convex strike force. They are designed to increase swing to the extent that you can achieve a convex strike. I am sure the five candidates that I have selected can do it sooner rather later.


You jumped ahead to the divorce and we haven't even started dating yet. You have yet to describe why a convex strike ( ignoring how to achieve it ) is more powerful then the existing. Start there.


I think you and most people know that the convex-bend implement is more powerful than a concave-bend. You won't see a concave-bend pole in a vault. Any talk of data is a distraction when the fact is so obvious.


Ignoring the fact that shafts already bend in convex shape to the direction of travel/inverse to the direction of load, no matter which way it bends, the goal is to impart more force and therefore more speed and therefore more distance to the ball. But only if the energy it stores can be released. That unloading creates more club head speed that by basic physics, requires the head at the end of the shaft to travel faster than the other end of the shaft. The net result is a "release" through the impact zone which appears as a "concave" flex but is in fact the result of that release and that speed differential. If the shaft never flexes, then you are swinging a giant rigid bar that will impart far less energy. If the shaft flexes but never releases ( your convex use case ), then you will impart less force.

I know this because I have gone personally through a fitting with a shaft that was too stiff ( rebar ) vs a shaft that had the right flex profile to which it was storing and releasing energy at the right time. The difference? 5 mph of ball speed on the same swing speed on the same club at the same length. Physics at work.

No offense, but you seem to not have a basic understanding of physics, dynamics, tension/compression relationships, or how energy transfers across a material work.

Facts always are the enemy of the snake oil salesman.
 

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You have yet to describe why a convex strike ( ignoring how to achieve it ) is more powerful then the existing. Start there.

I am struggling to think of any example of a projectile being launched in a convex manner. Not a pitched baseball. Not an arrow. Not a dart. Not a golf ball. Not a pole vaulter. Not a trebuchet. I can't think of anything.

Now, I understand the concept preserving that convex for as long as possible, but not through the entire act of launch.
 

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Now, I understand the concept preserving that convex for as long as possible, but not through the entire act of launch.
if the load has not been released at impact, and is instead released AFTER impact, isn't that ridiculously inefficient?
 

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if the load has not been released at impact, and is instead released AFTER impact, isn't that ridiculously inefficient?
I don't think "ridiculously inefficient" is a strong enough of a term to fully describe how not good that would be.

I will make up a word to describe it...it would be "silliramous" to try and not release the shaft before impact.
 

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The OP's 1st post on the 'how' is here in a separate thread.


Looks very similar to the Mindy Blake set up (described in the book 'The Secret Of Golf' by George Peper).

I think the 're-engineered swing will adopt the following concepts:

1. Feet angulated towards target.
2. Extremely strong grip
3. Knees flexed
4. Weight pressure on heels
5. Shoulders and head square to target line
6. Hips open relative to shoulders
7. Right elbow just inside vertical line drawn upwards from ball/hip joint
8. Antecubital Fossa facing away from body (ie. external rotation of right humerus)
9. Left arm hangs vertically
10. Holding the grip with the right hand (similar to a piccolo lead hand grip that was sometimes used by golfers in the bygone era) in a way to be able to twist the clubshaft so that the clubface remains square to the path at all times.
11. Little weight shift in backswing
12.Create early X-factor stretch
13.Short backswing
14.Claimed energy transfer from Ground up -basically the swing being driven by the legs - pitch right elbow being also driven through.
15. Handle dragging release through impact with clubface square to path post impact

But please note that any extra clubhead speed is not dictated by the release of stored elastic potential energy in the shaft - which is just a restoring force of the shaft material (takes about 2lb weight force to bend a shaft 1 inch and there isn't that much bend in the shaft in a golf swing). So compare that 2lb restoring force (if the shaft was bent 1 inch) to the 1600-2000 lbs force that is generated by your downswing at impact (see Dave Tutelmans website extract below).

Whether you have clubshaft convex or concave won't make any significant difference.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Dave Tutelmans website:

This is his rough calculation for the force that needs to be generated by the club moving at 100ph to accelerate a ball to 150 mph (during an impact period of 0.0004 secs). His first estimate was 1600 lbs force but a more reasonable figure is 2000 lbs force.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Impact lasts 0.0004 second (0.4msec). During that time, the force the clubhead exerts on the ball averages about 1600 pounds. (We need that much force in order to accelerate a 46-gram ball to 150mph in 0.4msec.)


  • Clamp a shaft horizontally by its butt, and hang a one-pound weight from the tip. How much did the tip deflect when you added the weight? Even if you used a stiff shaft, the deflection was close to half an inch. So the shaft deflects at least an inch for every 2 pounds.
  • Now, how much force does the head exert on the ball during impact? We figured it out in this section, and it's about 2000 pounds.
  • So how much would the shaft have to deflect for the force it exerts to make a significant difference in what happens to the ball. Well, a one percent change in force is just about at the threshold of a detectable change in performance. That is, if the force change is less than one percent, any difference in the result is going to be too small to notice and very difficult to even measure. One percent of 2000 pounds is 20 pounds.
  • To finish the story, how much would the shaft have to bend for you to apply at least 20 pounds to the clubhead by something you do at the grip? If one pound bends the shaft a half inch, it will take ten inches of shaft bend to exert a force of 20 pounds. So the shaft would have to bend at least ten inches during impact to make a detectable difference in the ball flight. You know that's not going to happen.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

So imho , even if you re-engineer the golf swing to have a convex shaped shaft, it will make very little difference to the generation of clubhead speed.
 
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Can we be sure Mystery Meat didn’t slip by the filters?
 

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This thread is making my brain hurt.. The viceroy just doesn't make sense. His example of a pole vaulter also is confusing. The pole vaulter sprints, puts one end of the pole in the ground, and then the pole bends with the energy puts into it then unloads that energy to propel the vaulter over the bar. The golf swing is just that, a swing. You don't lock one end of the shaft in the ground, compress the shaft then let it release. You swing the club and the shaft loads and unloads. I don't see any proof that the it's more efficient to have a convex strike versus a concave one.
 

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Well I've done my best using Dave Tutelmans website to show that there is no real advantage (from a physics perspective) to have a convex shaft vs a concave one through impact. Any extra energy in a convex shaft unbending through impact would cause an insignificant increase in clubhead speed .

However , if the OP can prove using physics that his re-engineered swing can create superior clubhead speed compared to a Rory or Cameron Champ , then that's fine with me (otherwise its all hypothetical).
 

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I have. I want to see how to achieve what you are describing in the swing. Do not tell me the about the Hogan stance. Not every golfer uses Hogan's stance or follows Hogan's teaching on swing mechanics. So, how do I achieve a convex shaft at impact? It's just a stance thing, or is it? Show me some proof of concepts, please.
Here is the concept in brief:
1. Adopt a narrow stance where the distance between the outer heels is the same as that between the outer edges of the shoulders.
2. At address, turn the feet towards the target with the right foot at 20 degrees and the left foot at 45 to 60 degrees (preferably the latter for really fast swings).
3. Use the rotary movement of the lower body - an established technique used in field sports - as the primary source to power the golf swing.
4. Ensure that the left leg remains flexed throughout the impact zone (like in field sports).
5. Pivot the rotary movement of the lower body on the left heel, and let the left foot open progressively as the downswing occurs.

If you have to adopt the above simultaneously and have a swing speed of 100+ mph, you can strike the ball with a 'convex' bend shaft. These are the basic principles of The Reflex Convex Swing. If not, a slow swinger like myself has benefited from a consistent swing and a few added yards.
 

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I think this is what most that are following this thread are waiting for. You mentioned that you are not here to sell a book, so why not lay out the system on how the golf swing achieves this.
Refer to my reply to blugold a minute ago.
 

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The OP's 1st post on the 'how' is here in a separate thread.


Looks very similar to the Mindy Blake set up (described in the book 'The Secret Of Golf' by George Peper).

I think the 're-engineered swing will adopt the following concepts:

1. Feet angulated towards target.
2. Extremely strong grip
3. Knees flexed
4. Weight pressure on heels
5. Shoulders and head square to target line
6. Hips open relative to shoulders
7. Right elbow just inside vertical line drawn upwards from ball/hip joint
8. Antecubital Fossa facing away from body (ie. external rotation of right humerus)
9. Left arm hangs vertically
10. Holding the grip with the right hand (similar to a piccolo lead hand grip that was sometimes used by golfers in the bygone era) in a way to be able to twist the clubshaft so that the clubface remains square to the path at all times.
11. Little weight shift in backswing
12.Create early X-factor stretch
13.Short backswing
14.Claimed energy transfer from Ground up -basically the swing being driven by the legs - pitch right elbow being also driven through.
15. Handle dragging release through impact with clubface square to path post impact

But please note that any extra clubhead speed is not dictated by the release of stored elastic potential energy in the shaft - which is just a restoring force of the shaft material (takes about 2lb weight force to bend a shaft 1 inch and there isn't that much bend in the shaft in a golf swing). So compare that 2lb restoring force (if the shaft was bent 1 inch) to the 1600-2000 lbs force that is generated by your downswing at impact (see Dave Tutelmans website extract below).

Whether you have clubshaft convex or concave won't make any significant difference.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Dave Tutelmans website:

This is his rough calculation for the force that needs to be generated by the club moving at 100ph to accelerate a ball to 150 mph (during an impact period of 0.0004 secs). His first estimate was 1600 lbs force but a more reasonable figure is 2000 lbs force.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Impact lasts 0.0004 second (0.4msec). During that time, the force the clubhead exerts on the ball averages about 1600 pounds. (We need that much force in order to accelerate a 46-gram ball to 150mph in 0.4msec.)


  • Clamp a shaft horizontally by its butt, and hang a one-pound weight from the tip. How much did the tip deflect when you added the weight? Even if you used a stiff shaft, the deflection was close to half an inch. So the shaft deflects at least an inch for every 2 pounds.
  • Now, how much force does the head exert on the ball during impact? We figured it out in this section, and it's about 2000 pounds.
  • So how much would the shaft have to deflect for the force it exerts to make a significant difference in what happens to the ball. Well, a one percent change in force is just about at the threshold of a detectable change in performance. That is, if the force change is less than one percent, any difference in the result is going to be too small to notice and very difficult to even measure. One percent of 2000 pounds is 20 pounds.
  • To finish the story, how much would the shaft have to bend for you to apply at least 20 pounds to the clubhead by something you do at the grip? If one pound bends the shaft a half inch, it will take ten inches of shaft bend to exert a force of 20 pounds. So the shaft would have to bend at least ten inches during impact to make a detectable difference in the ball flight. You know that's not going to happen.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

So imho , even if you re-engineer the golf swing to have a convex shaped shaft, it will make very little difference to the generation of clubhead speed.
what he said.. Maybe... I dunno.. too many big words..
 

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If you have to adopt the above simultaneously and have a swing speed of 100+ mph, you can strike the ball with a 'convex' bend shaft. These are the basic principles of The Reflex Convex Swing. If not, a slow swinger like myself has benefited from a consistent swing and a few added yards.
In your system, does the shaft flex profile have no impact? Your system never mentions of the equipment plays any role. So in the steps above for example, does this work with both an XStiff shaft AND a senior flex shaft the same?
 

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Please don't compare yourself to Einstein. And how do we "easily experience" it? I think that's what we are all waiting for.



Its an assumption because you are assuming that 14 yards was the only difference and there was no external influences impacting that number. The USGA is actively researching how to roll back distance because its gotten to long, per their assumption. The PGA average is not a true representation of total distance capability but rather in competition conditions. During that window, other factors ( course conditions, physical fitness, course layout, weather factors ) impact your assumption that 14 yards was ONLY a result of lack of 'progress' in swing. The biggest factor being the clubs themselves. The number could be higher on the potential ( USGA's opinion ) and other factors reduced the average to 14 yards.



I guess you didn't actually read this part of my post or didn't understand it. I already have my foot at ~45 degrees. How would Tony Finau adopt the convex strike? What guidance would you give him. Or assuming I swing like Tony with my 45 degree left foot, how would you get me to swing that way?




You jumped ahead to the divorce and we haven't even started dating yet. You have yet to describe why a convex strike ( ignoring how to achieve it ) is more powerful then the existing. Start there.




Ignoring the fact that shafts already bend in convex shape to the direction of travel/inverse to the direction of load, no matter which way it bends, the goal is to impart more force and therefore more speed and therefore more distance to the ball. But only if the energy it stores can be released. That unloading creates more club head speed that by basic physics, requires the head at the end of the shaft to travel faster than the other end of the shaft. The net result is a "release" through the impact zone which appears as a "concave" flex but is in fact the result of that release and that speed differential. If the shaft never flexes, then you are swinging a giant rigid bar that will impart far less energy. If the shaft flexes but never releases ( your convex use case ), then you will impart less force.

I know this because I have gone personally through a fitting with a shaft that was too stiff ( rebar ) vs a shaft that had the right flex profile to which it was storing and releasing energy at the right time. The difference? 5 mph of ball speed on the same swing speed on the same club at the same length. Physics at work.

No offense, but you seem to not have a basic understanding of physics, dynamics, tension/compression relationships, or how energy transfers across a material work.

Facts always are the enemy of the snake oil salesman.
I am fine with your comments. But the find the snake oil salesman insinuation offensive.
 

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Here is the concept in brief:
1. Adopt a narrow stance where the distance between the outer heels is the same as that between the outer edges of the shoulders.
2. At address, turn the feet towards the target with the right foot at 20 degrees and the left foot at 45 to 60 degrees (preferably the latter for really fast swings).
3. Use the rotary movement of the lower body - an established technique used in field sports - as the primary source to power the golf swing.
4. Ensure that the left leg remains flexed throughout the impact zone (like in field sports).
5. Pivot the rotary movement of the lower body on the left heel, and let the left foot open progressively as the downswing occurs.

If you have to adopt the above simultaneously and have a swing speed of 100+ mph, you can strike the ball with a 'convex' bend shaft. These are the basic principles of The Reflex Convex Swing. If not, a slow swinger like myself has benefited from a consistent swing and a few added yards.
Right foot toward the target? You would be seriously impeding lower body biomechanics
 

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In your system, does the shaft flex profile have no impact? Your system never mentions of the equipment plays any role. So in the steps above for example, does this work with both an XStiff shaft AND a senior flex shaft the same?
Tevenor, Naturally the clubhead at the end of the shaft strikes the ball. I think the swing speed will determine the shaft flex, the faster swing will probably need a stiffer shaft. By the way, the Convex Swing needs a swing speed 100+ mph.

I wish to post the steps for The Reflex Convex Swing:
1. Adopt a narrow stance where the distance between the outer heels is the same as that between the outer edges of the shoulders.
2. At address, turn the feet towards the target with the right foot at 20 degrees and the left foot at 45 to 60 degrees (preferably the latter for really fast swings).
3. Use the rotary movement of the lower body - an established technique used in field sports - as the primary source to power the golf swing.
4. Ensure that the left leg remains flexed throughout the impact zone (like in field sports).
5. Pivot the rotary movement of the lower body on the left heel, and let the left foot open progressively as the downswing occurs.

Here is the conceptual image of the 'convex' strike. And my own slow swing of the Reflex Swing, the forerunner of The Reflex Convex Swing.
 

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Hi razaar,

Your observation is helpful. Most golfers tend to cast from the top and the clubhead loses the centrifugal force prematurely.

The better golfers tend to delay that and strike the ball better and further. All professionals still have the convex shaft at 9 o'clock left arm position transitioning to straight and then to concave before it strikes the ball. After the impact on the ball, the shaft stays concave before it straightens as the swing loses speed. But still begs the question, how to you get the shaft to remain in convex-bend from the 9 o'clock position to impact the ball before it straightens again.

Watch the following video slo-mo at 0.25 playback speed and see the action. You can watch others. It is done at 120fps. So the transition of the shaft is evident. Watch this:
This topic was covered by the scientific publication "Search for the Perfect Swing"
Hi razaar,

Your observation is helpful. Most golfers tend to cast from the top and the clubhead loses the centrifugal force prematurely.

The better golfers tend to delay that and strike the ball better and further. All professionals still have the convex shaft at 9 o'clock left arm position transitioning to straight and then to concave before it strikes the ball. After the impact on the ball, the shaft stays concave before it straightens as the swing loses speed. But still begs the question, how to you get the shaft to remain in convex-bend from the 9 o'clock position to impact the ball before it straightens again.

Watch the following video slo-mo at 0.25 playback speed and see the action. You can watch others. It is done at 120fps. So the transition of the shaft is evident. Watch this:
This topic has been covered in great detail in Chapter 22 of the scientific publication "Search for the Perfect Swing" by Cochran & Stubbs (updated in 2005. If you haven't read the book, I recommend you do so.
 
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Right foot toward the target? You would be seriously impeding lower body biomechanics
The idea of turning the right foot 20 degrees is to keep the right leg and side sturdy. That way you get to stretch the right side fully and have a compact backswing. You get the maximum angle between the shoulder and hip planes in a short compact backswing. Do read the details in my second post in this forum.
 

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This topic was covered by the scientific publication "Search for the Perfect Swing"
This topic has been covered in great detail in Chapter 22 of the scientific publication "Search for the Perfect Swing" by Cochran & Stings (updated in 2005. If you haven't read the book, I recommend you do so.
Thank you.
 

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4. Ensure that the left leg remains flexed throughout the impact zone (like in field sports).
I need an example of a field where the lead leg remains flexed throughout the movement.

Also, why is a convex shaft at impact better than a released shaft?

To be perfectly open with you, this position, with a driver, looks like it will create a huge amount of spin and very high flights. Shorter driver.
Ariya convex strike.png

This position looks like it will launch the ball with less spin
Screenshot_20200521-062341.png

As I have thought about this convex shaft idea, it's getting worse and worse. I cannot think of a single ballistic movement where this concept applies.
 

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